Trench Gun Madness

m1marty · Dec 24, 2021

Absolutely amazing Mr. Winter! Out of your many projects- that is one of my favorites.

pmclaine · Dec 25, 2021

m1marty said:
Absolutely amazing Mr. Winter! Out of your many projects- that is one of my favorites.

Tell the truth looking at this project when it was two sleeved pipes riding the barrel and mag extension I was thinking "Yeah nice try!"

Never underestimate a Green Beret..........

J Max · Dec 25, 2021

Merry Christmas ya’ll

Aftermath · Dec 25, 2021

My father (KIA Camp Enari, 21 NOV 69) and his uncle were stationed in the Philippines at the same time for a short time. My great Uncle was a bulldozer operator and had uncovered a stash of weapons from the infamous "I shall return" time frame. They were able to assemble quite a few Model 97's from the rust pitted and otherwise destroyed remnants. I have the only one remaining in our family and it ain't going nowhere. It is not in mint shape but not bad either. I used it to shoot birds with as a 12 year old. It has a 32" full choke barrel!!! The barrel shroud, bayonet mount, stocks...everything else appear to be original to that shotgun. Now I'm seriously considering a restoration to the short barreled version and finding a correct bayonet.
Thanks for spending more of my money.

pmclaine · Dec 25, 2021

Aftermath said:
My father (KIA Camp Enari, 21 NOV 69) and his uncle were stationed in the Philippines at the same time for a short time. My great Uncle was a bulldozer operator and had uncovered a stash of weapons from the infamous "I shall return" time frame. They were able to assemble quite a few Model 97's from the rust pitted and otherwise destroyed remnants. I have the only one remaining in our family and it ain't going nowhere. It is not in mint shape but not bad either. I used it to shoot birds with as a 12 year old. It has a 32" full choke barrel!!! The barrel shroud, bayonet mount, stocks...everything else appear to be original to that shotgun. Now I'm seriously considering a restoration to the short barreled version and finding a correct bayonet.
Thanks for spending more of my money.

Really?

No pictures?

Charger442 · Dec 25, 2021

Aftermath said:
My father (KIA Camp Enari, 21 NOV 69) and his uncle were stationed in the Philippines at the same time for a short time. My great Uncle was a bulldozer operator and had uncovered a stash of weapons from the infamous "I shall return" time frame. They were able to assemble quite a few Model 97's from the rust pitted and otherwise destroyed remnants. I have the only one remaining in our family and it ain't going nowhere. It is not in mint shape but not bad either. I used it to shoot birds with as a 12 year old. It has a 32" full choke barrel!!! The barrel shroud, bayonet mount, stocks...everything else appear to be original to that shotgun. Now I'm seriously considering a restoration to the short barreled version and finding a correct bayonet.
Thanks for spending more of my money.

32" barrel with heat shield and bayo lugs? I'd like to see something like that

Aftermath · Dec 25, 2021

Aftermath said:
My father (KIA Camp Enari, 21 NOV 69) and his uncle were stationed in the Philippines at the same time for a short time. My great Uncle was a bulldozer operator and had uncovered a stash of weapons from the infamous "I shall return" time frame. They were able to assemble quite a few Model 97's from the rust pitted and otherwise destroyed remnants. I have the only one remaining in our family and it ain't going nowhere. It is not in mint shape but not bad either. I used it to shoot birds with as a 12 year old. It has a 32" full choke barrel!!! The barrel shroud, bayonet mount, stocks...everything else appear to be original to that shotgun. Now I'm seriously considering a restoration to the short barreled version and finding a correct bayonet.
Thanks for spending more of my money.

@pmclaine maybe you can tell me more about this relic

NukeMMC · Dec 26, 2021

Sold my 1920s-era, US marked Model 97 a few years ago. It was a nice representative example but just not my cuppa....

pmclaine · Dec 26, 2021

Aftermath said:
@pmclaine maybe you can tell me more about this relic
View attachment 7769250 View attachment 7769251 View attachment 7769252 View attachment 7769253 View attachment 7769254 View attachment 7769255 View attachment 7769256

Sir, I am humbled by your estimation of my knowledge. I have fooled you sorry to say.

Looks like a takedown 97.

Unsure why the heat shield long barrel came together or how.

I do know a lot of long barrel mil guns existed and were used for aerial gunnery training but they tended to be semi autos and would have no need for a bayonet.

Maybe someone was putting together a repro but never got to the cut stage.

Any ordinance marks on it?

What's the butt pad, well used or some civilian replacement?

PS - Went back and saw the US/ bursting bomb.

Charger442 · Dec 26, 2021

pmclaine said:
Sir, I am humbled by your estimation of my knowledge. I have fooled you sorry to say.

Looks like a takedown 97.

Unsure why the heat shield long barrel came together or how.

I do know a lot of long barrel mil guns existed and were used for aerial gunnery training but they tended to be semi autos and would have no need for a bayonet.

Maybe someone was putting together a repro but never got to the cut stage.

Any ordinance marks on it?

What's the butt pad, well used or some civilian replacement?

PS - Went back and saw the US/ bursting bomb.

What's the choke?

He said they prices together guns from Macarthur era, maybe someone wanted to keep this choke in there? I don't know, it's strange. Weird as a $3 bill

pmclaine · Dec 26, 2021

Charger442 said:
What's the choke?

He said they prices together guns from Macarthur era, maybe someone wanted to keep this choke in there? I don't know, it's strange. Weird as a $3 bill

Again my fail....didn't realize this was that same poster.

Man if that came out of the ground in the PI it is in way better shape than I expected.

Having to be built from parts of multiple guns, they used what was salvageable......I have no reason to doubt the story.....I am sorry for the loss of your Dad....I was coming up on my second birthday.

I wonder if an SRS check would have any info on the serial number.

Interesting to know if it was buried by soldiers prior to surrender, by the Japanese? Doubt it was post war....our habit than was ocean burial.

Put that receiver in the hands of 4th Marines at Corregidor it's a priceless relic.

buffalowinter · Dec 26, 2021

My WWII Phillipines Guerrilla Gun. Built by stay behind troops for guerilla's so they could obtain better weapons. After the war, inventor Richardson marketed it in the US, but it was only a couple dollars cheaper than a modern shotgun and the company went out of business.

Original combat used gun.

Post WWII commercial gun.

Aftermath · Dec 26, 2021

pmclaine said:
Again my fail....didn't realize this was that same poster.

Man if that came out of the ground in the PI it is in way better shape than I expected.

Having to be built from parts of multiple guns, they used what was salvageable......I have no reason to doubt the story.....I am sorry for the loss of your Dad....I was coming up on my second birthday.

I wonder if an SRS check would have any info on the serial number.

Interesting to know if it was buried by soldiers prior to surrender, by the Japanese? Doubt it was post war....our habit than was ocean burial.

Put that receiver in the hands of 4th Marines at Corregidor it's a priceless relic.

Of the several that made it back to the US in the care of my dad and his uncle, this one was said to be in the best condition as far as the pitting of the receiver.
The barrel shows more pitting than the parts mated to it which is why I believe the barrel came from another shotgun. I read decades ago that the 97 could be had with up to a 32” barrel and pretty much any choke. Also read that use of weapons originally intended for the civilian market was commonplace. My guess, and that’s all it can be, is this barrel came off a civilian shotgun.
I’ve never once considered altering it until this thread by @buffalowinter. Even now I debate whether to leave it as is with the scars and patina but taking it back to 20”, cleaning up the metal and bluing and finding a correct 1917 bayonet would also be cool.

Halfnutz · Dec 26, 2021

Aftermath said:
Of the several that made it back to the US in the care of my dad and his uncle, this one was said to be in the best condition as far as the pitting of the receiver.
The barrel shows more pitting than the parts mated to it which is why I believe the barrel came from another shotgun. I read decades ago that the 97 could be had with up to a 32” barrel and pretty much any choke. Also read that use of weapons originally intended for the civilian market was commonplace. My guess, and that’s all it can be, is this barrel came off a civilian shotgun.
I’ve never once considered altering it until this thread by @buffalowinter. Even now I debate whether to leave it as is with the scars and patina but taking it back to 20”, cleaning up the metal and bluing and finding a correct 1917 bayonet would also be cool.

You have a family heirloom. Don't fuck with it. Buy another one to carve up. My 2 cents.

Aftermath · Dec 26, 2021

Halfnutz said:
You have a family heirloom. Don't fuck with it. Buy another one to carve up. My 2 cents.

I always figured this thing, being a frankenstein, was worth very little monetarily. Maybe not even worth much historically. However, I have never once considered selling it and intend to make sure that it ends up in the hands of a deserving nephew or great nephew who feels the same as I do regarding the family heirloom. The story is sorta cool, even if the old shotgun isn't.

Charger442 · Dec 26, 2021

Aftermath said:
I always figured this thing, being a frankenstein, was worth very little monetarily. Maybe not even worth much historically. However, I have never once considered selling it and intend to make sure that it ends up in the hands of a deserving nephew or great nephew who feels the same as I do regarding the family heirloom. The story is sorta cool, even if the old shotgun isn't.

The bad part is you really have no documentation to back up your story. Don't confuse that with me saying it's not true. I believe you. But any gun buyer probably won't.

Ever heard, "buy the gun, not the story"?

I think you're right, it's not worth big bucks at all. Mismatched serial on forend vs frame, 32" barrel with heat shield cuts, etc.

If you got info like pmclaine said and pinned it down with documentation to a pacific island and a marine unit, the sky's the limit.

Unfortunately, the stories only live on with the story tellers tied to the original characters. Usually. After you are gone, you never know what the next owners will do/think.

buffalowinter · Dec 26, 2021

Starting work on the Owen Semi-Auto "SMG". Pretty complicated as the vertical feed means I pretty much have to make a new bolt. Trying to modify one right now, but it's pretty rough. The little stove pipe in front of the magazine is the barrel screw. It's just for show on mine, I'm welding a barrel trunion in. Nice concept, vertical feed and bottom eject gets gravity working for you, probably don't even need an ejector...but it serves as a bolt guide. I don't know why they didn't offset the mag a little to the left so you wouldn't need offset sights. I'll start a separate thread as work progresses. I'm also working on my British WWII Paratrooper folding bicycle and a Winchester Model 12 trench gun.

acudaowner · Dec 26, 2021

I am not sure about that being a sign of madness you can hardly ever have too much of a good thing and a good shotgun is always a good thing . also if you like them having more is a great thing . Unless you have no ammo that might be bad sweet looking guns by the way .

buffalowinter · Dec 26, 2021

mcameron said:
you going to paint that in the original Neon camo?

View attachment 7769834

I'm going to paint it in the original camo colors. The gun in your pic isn't matched very well. I have some professionally matched colors left over from a Rhodesian FAL that I built. My FAL came out of South Africa but there is some evidence it was first in Rhodesia. Many original parts, lower, stock, magazine, and Halbeck device (muzzle brake) which is pretty rare.

Sniperwannabee · Dec 27, 2021

I’ve been following all your post on here for a while, I would love to see your collection….

pitspitr · Dec 27, 2021

buffalowinter said:
View attachment 7767838 View attachment 7767839 View attachment 7767840 View attachment 7767841 View attachment 7767852 View attachment 7767856 View attachment 7767857 View attachment 7767858 View attachment 7767859 View attachment 7767860 View attachment 7767864
View attachment 7767867 View attachment 7767868 View attachment 7767870

OMG!

Do you ever sleep?!

buffalowinter · Dec 27, 2021

pitspitr said:
OMG!
Do you ever sleep?!

All joking aside, very little, for a number of reasons.

Dead Eye Dick · Dec 27, 2021

Model 37, the shotgun my father bought a year before he died. Spent my last day with him, duck hunting. Got me one, with that same Model 37.

Thank you for restoring John Browning’s finest.

Aftermath · May 21, 2022

Charger442 said:
The bad part is you really have no documentation to back up your story. Don't confuse that with me saying it's not true. I believe you. But any gun buyer probably won't.

Ever heard, "buy the gun, not the story"?

I think you're right, it's not worth big bucks at all. Mismatched serial on forend vs frame, 32" barrel with heat shield cuts, etc.

If you got info like pmclaine said and pinned it down with documentation to a pacific island and a marine unit, the sky's the limit.

Unfortunately, the stories only live on with the story tellers tied to the original characters. Usually. After you are gone, you never know what the next owners will do/think.

@pmclaine, @buffalowinter

Wellllllll....UPDATE.

To correct @Charger442 on only one point, the serial numbers do, in fact, match.

I never considered this as anything more than a family heirloom, even if it HAD been on that island in the time discussed. The problem is, this shotgun was manufactured about a year after that fateful date when MacArthur left about 4000 Marines to the hands of the Japanese. I will leave that thought to marinate.
That being said, this shotgun MAY have been in the Philippines circa 1957-58 when my dad and great uncle were stationed there. It is also very possible that the great uncle did uncover a pile of weapons stashed in a hastily dug ditch because hiding the stuff in a ditch did happen. It may very well be that this shotgun had a 30 some inch full choke barrel installed from one salvaged from said ditch, but the receiver and barrel extension were never in that ditch.
So, I decided to make it as original as I could. I looked all over for a correct Winchester barrel. That is not a fast and easy item to find. I almost had decided to have the long barrel cut to the appropriate length when I came across http://bullcreekarms.com/ and they happen to be not very far from me at all. They located a correct barrel, replaced a few dinged up screws and made sure the action was all gtg. I will add a Turner sling and am planning to launch some bird shot over the next day or 3.
I am very pleased to have this join the other WW2 weapons of mass destruction in my collection.

Aftermath · May 21, 2022

Aftermath said:
@pmclaine, @buffalowinter

Wellllllll....UPDATE.

To correct @Charger442 on only one point, the serial numbers do, in fact, match.

I never considered this as anything more than a family heirloom, even if it HAD been on that island in the time discussed. The problem is, this shotgun was manufactured about a year after that fateful date when MacArthur left about 4000 Marines to the hands of the Japanese. I will leave that thought to marinate.
That being said, this shotgun MAY have been in the Philippines circa 1957-58 when my dad and great uncle were stationed there. It is also very possible that the great uncle did uncover a pile of weapons stashed in a hastily dug ditch because hiding the stuff in a ditch did happen. It may very well be that this shotgun had a 30 some inch full choke barrel installed from one salvaged from said ditch, but the receiver and barrel extension were never in that ditch.
So, I decided to make it as original as I could. I looked all over for a correct Winchester barrel. That is not a fast and easy item to find. I almost had decided to have the long barrel cut to the appropriate length when I came across http://bullcreekarms.com/ and they happen to be not very far from me at all. They located a correct barrel, replaced a few dinged up screws and made sure the action was all gtg. I will add a Turner sling and am planning to launch some bird shot over the next day or 3.
I am very pleased to have this join the other WW2 weapons of mass destruction in my collection.

akmike47 · May 21, 2022

Y’all have the best toys, I hate y’all

. I was going to buy a real 97 trench gun from a guy and when I called to head over he claimed it was “stolen over night”, could have just said he changed his mind. Like I moron I passed on 3 97s I could have converted just to shoot.

Aftermath · May 21, 2022

Yep.
You are a moron to have passed on 97's when you were lookin for one (maybe other reasons, too, but I will withhold further judgement

). I don't know what they have available but I can't recommend Bull Creek Arms any higher.

akmike47 · May 21, 2022

Aftermath said:
Yep.
You are a moron to have passed on 97's when you were lookin for one (maybe other reasons, too, but I will withhold further judgement ). I don't know what they have available but I can't recommend Bull Creek Arms any higher.

I wasn’t looking for one at the time, and they were field model s I’d have to convert. The one the guy pretended was stolen was the only one that was a real trench gun.

Aftermath · May 21, 2022

akmike47 said:
I wasn’t looking for one at the time, and they were field model s I’d have to convert. The one the guy pretended was stolen was the only one that was a real trench gun.

Well, ok then, maybe you aren't a moron.

deltawiskey · May 21, 2022

Bull Creek Arms does excellent work! Don't hesitate to pick up an 1897 and send it to them for the conversion...

DW

akmike47 · May 21, 2022

Aftermath said:
Well, ok then, maybe you aren't a moron.

I mean I wouldn’t deny it on a normal day.

Rapidaffliction · May 24, 2022

GREATO POSTO!

Hey, check this out... ..not in trench gun form...but you know...

Anyways... This really is a great post, and your builds are awesome. They're good enough that they got me up, out of the chair; and pacing around while I checked them out.

Sound the Charge.

camocorvette · May 24, 2022

Rapidaffliction said:
GREATO POSTO!

Hey, check this out... ..not in trench gun form...but you know...

Anyways... This really is a great post, and your builds are awesome. They're good enough that they got me up, out of the chair; and pacing around while I checked them out.

Sound the Charge.

That's purdy!

6.5SH · May 24, 2022

Rapidaffliction said:
GREATO POSTO!

Hey, check this out... ..not in trench gun form...but you know...

Anyways... This really is a great post, and your builds are awesome. They're good enough that they got me up, out of the chair; and pacing around while I checked them out.

Sound the Charge.

If that hasn't been refinished that is an extraordinary example.

Rapidaffliction · May 24, 2022

6.5SH said:
If that hasn't been refinished that is an extraordinary example.

Thank You. I don't know if it has been refinished or not, but looking at it; I can't help but think that it has to have been. It's an early-ish serial number... 500xxx-something...that you can see. .... The little specs on it, on some of the pictures is just lint, and dog hair... It wipes off. I don't know how the dog hair gets through the case, but it does.
I keep the surface pretty well wiped down, and I have been meaning to strip the grease off; and start keeping it treated and Renaissance wax rather than Lucas gun oil.
I will say this... You can see, up by the tang, where the wood has been stained over time with oil. It was like this before I got it. I try real hard not to get any oil on the wood.

Rapidaffliction · May 24, 2022

camocorvette said:
That's purdy!

Thank You. I think this might be one of my most special pieces. It's funny that his post was at the top, when I had just recently taken pictures; so I decided to share them.

Deathrowdave · Jun 8, 2022

My Savage

Rapidaffliction · Jun 8, 2022

Deathrowdave said:
My Savage View attachment 7887873

Whoa. That's super cool. Do you have a pic of the other side?

Deathrowdave · Jun 8, 2022

I can get one in a day or so , weather has been tough here . Trees down , to clean up . I for sure get an image in a day or so .

sam4886 · Oct 17, 2022

Bringing this back to the top.

I just picked up a winchester model 12 in an auction. Just cleaned it all up, but haven't test fired or anything yet. Nothing makes me think it won't work.

It seems to be in great shape. Its a 12 gauge with a full choke 28" barrel. 2 3/4 chamber. It had a cool old wooden plug in the tube that was stamped with the gun specs. I've seen plenty of wood plugs, but they're mostly just carved up dowels. This one seems factory.

To stick with the trench gun theme here, and pretty much the only reason I bought it, I'm gonna cut it down to, what I think is correct, 20", or maybe 18". I'm gonna see if I can get it threaded for chokes too while I'm at it, just to have that utility.

I have a question about loading this thing. Any shells in the tube want to squirt right back out unless the loading gate is pushed about half way in to hold them. It makes it pretty hard to load. Is that normal? I'm used to more modern pumps that I can stick a shell in and it will just hang out there.

Edit. Forgot pics.

RPN · Oct 17, 2022

sam4886 said:
Bringing this back to the top.

I just picked up a winchester model 12 in an auction. Just cleaned it all up, but haven't test fired or anything yet. Nothing makes me think it won't work.

It seems to be in great shape. Its a 12 gauge with a full choke 28" barrel. 2 3/4 chamber. It had a cool old wooden plug in the tube that was stamped with the gun specs. I've seen plenty of wood plugs, but they're mostly just carved up dowels. This one seems factory.

To stick with the trench gun theme here, and pretty much the only reason I bought it, I'm gonna cut it down to, what I think is correct, 20", or maybe 18". I'm gonna see if I can get it threaded for chokes too while I'm at it, just to have that utility.

I have a question about loading this thing. Any shells in the tube want to squirt right back out unless the loading gate is pushed about half way in to hold them. It makes it pretty hard to load. Is that normal? I'm used to more modern pumps that I can stick a shell in and it will just hang out there.

Edit. Forgot pics. View attachment 7978582 View attachment 7978583 View attachment 7978584 View attachment 7978585 View attachment 7978586 View attachment 7978587 View attachment 7978588

I'm not a model 12 expert, but they don't have a shell stop spring like most other pumps do. What is meant to happen is the shell lifter has a nick inn it that functions as the stop - so it looks like the shell is partway out. Photo stolen from the internet.

Rapidaffliction · Oct 17, 2022

sam4886 said:
Bringing this back to the top.

I just picked up a winchester model 12 in an auction. Just cleaned it all up, but haven't test fired or anything yet. Nothing makes me think it won't work.

It seems to be in great shape. Its a 12 gauge with a full choke 28" barrel. 2 3/4 chamber. It had a cool old wooden plug in the tube that was stamped with the gun specs. I've seen plenty of wood plugs, but they're mostly just carved up dowels. This one seems factory.

To stick with the trench gun theme here, and pretty much the only reason I bought it, I'm gonna cut it down to, what I think is correct, 20", or maybe 18". I'm gonna see if I can get it threaded for chokes too while I'm at it, just to have that utility.

I have a question about loading this thing. Any shells in the tube want to squirt right back out unless the loading gate is pushed about half way in to hold them. It makes it pretty hard to load. Is that normal? I'm used to more modern pumps that I can stick a shell in and it will just hang out there.

Edit. Forgot pics. View attachment 7978582 View attachment 7978583 View attachment 7978584 View attachment 7978585 View attachment 7978586 View attachment 7978587 View attachment 7978588

Hey, that looks like a take down model. That's cool.

sam4886 · Oct 17, 2022

RPN said:
I'm not a model 12 expert, but they don't have a shell stop spring like most other pumps do. What is meant to happen is the shell lifter has a nick inn it that functions as the stop - so it looks like the shell is partway out. Photo stolen from the internet.
View attachment 7978621

Yup, that's what I'm seeing. Guess ill just have to get used to loading it. Is the lifter supposed to push out of the way if I push hard enough with another shell? I think it does, but again I'm used to the shell stop.

sam4886 · Oct 17, 2022

Rapidaffliction said:
Hey, that looks like a take down model. That's cool.

It does come apart at the action. Based on quick googling when I was cleaning it it looked like they all do that. Is that not the case?

Rapidaffliction · Oct 17, 2022

sam4886 said:
It does come apart at the action. Based on quick googling when I was cleaning it it looked like they all do that. Is that not the case?

I thought it was the manner in which it came apart, as to whether it was a takedown or not...

Don't let me give you any bad information...maybe I misspoke..

sirhrmechanic · Oct 17, 2022

I hate it every time this thread comes back... because it sends me off looking for a 97 to chop up...

And they keep getting more expensive. So I know I need to get a Trench gun done sooner as opposed to later or they will end up unaffordium. And I won't buy a ChiCom one.

Cheers,

SIrhr

sam4886 · Oct 17, 2022

I should have thought about you guys. There was a 97 in the same auction. I didn't watch too close, bust based on how they usually go it probably went for about $450.

Charger442 · Oct 17, 2022

Rapidaffliction said:
I thought it was the manner in which it came apart, as to whether it was a takedown or not...

Don't let me give you any bad information...maybe I misspoke..

Pretty sure all model 12s are takedown, it's the model 97 that had some solid frame derivatives as a portion of the numbers manufactured

SLAYIN'SWEDE · Nov 5, 2022

This is my Model 97 I did a few years back.

Modoc · Nov 5, 2022

Rapidaffliction said:
GREATO POSTO!

Hey, check this out... ..not in trench gun form...but you know...

Anyways... This really is a great post, and your builds are awesome. They're good enough that they got me up, out of the chair; and pacing around while I checked them out.

Sound the Charge.

I really like it! I am also glad that you are keeping it original.

I cried when I saw a CAS shooter cut down a Black Diamond trap gun to 18-1/2”.

If anyone is looking to make a trench gun, I’d recommend contacting your local SASS or NCOWS club and find one that has already been molested rather than cutting up a good one that is becoming scarce.

IIRC, the “E” denotes a 1950’s production.

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Trench Gun Madness

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