Suppressors How To Suppress And Stay Short

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Let me first start off by saying that I have nearly zero experience with suppressors. I got to play with a MP5 that had one once and the range near me had one that they let me screw on to my HK USP45 Tactical. I do know how the function though.

Last October it became legal to own a suppressor here in Michigan, and that seems like a fine excuse to get one. Unfortunately we still can't have SBR's, because I would like to do both.

What I would like to do is get set up with a suppressor/barrel combination that will be as short as possible though. Here are some thoughts (not necessarily good ones) on how I may be able to approach this and still remain legal. Advice from those "in the know" would be fantastic.

I figured the best place to start would be with a short suppressor (duh). But I also seem to remember seeing a suppressor that went partially behind the end of the barrel so some of the suppressors volume was not adding to the length of the rifle. Is there such a thing? Or did I just imagine seeing something like that?

My next thought stems from legal barrel length and flash hiders. I have a S&W M&P15 and I am pretty sure that it has a 14.5" barrel and a permanently attached 1.5" flash hider so it's 16" legal. Is that right? So if that is how it works it got me thinking what is defined as "permanently attached" when it comes to legality? Would it be possible to "permanently attach" the rear part of a suppressor to the barrel (it would obviously need to be the "right" suppressor to do this) so when you disassemble the suppressor for cleaning the barrel length is still legal?

So lets say there is a suppressor out there that overlaps the barrel by lets say an inch when it is attached. Right off the start I saved myself an inch in overall rifle length. Then lets say that when the suppressor is disassembled the rear "cap" can be "permanently attached" to the barrel and it is 1.5" long. In theory if this could be done I would get 2.5" of suppressor that doesn't add to the length of the rifle.

Of course if this is feasible/legal there could potentially be a suppressor out there that overlaps the barrel by more than 1" and the rear "cap" could be more than 1.5" so I could potentially shorten the barrel to even less than 14.5"+flash hider.

Am I making any sense?

And if I am completely out of the ballpark with the above thinking what are some examples of a way to suppress the rifle and keep it as short as possible.

Thanks for your help.

Graham · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sqidd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I making any sense?</div></div>Not really.

That's why they make integrally suppressed firearms.

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

That's why they make integrally suppressed firearms. </div></div>

Do tell.

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

I saw this, it seems to put the back of the can 2" behind the muzzle threads. But the can seems real short. I'm not sure how effective it would be??

Spike's MRS-1

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

Maybe this will make more sense. Is there a legal way of cutting the barrel down and adding the length back with suppressor?

I'm looking to have the shortest suppressed setup that I can do and still remain legal.

raider1v1 · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sqidd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe this will make more sense. Is there a legal way of cutting the barrel down and adding the length back with suppressor?

I'm looking to have the shortest suppressed setup that I can do and still remain legal.
</div></div>

you can do that, the suppressor would have to be permanently attached somehow. i dont know if id recommend that, but thats how you could stay legal.

dddoo7 · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

Tactical solutions SBX barrels for 10/22 or ar15

http://www.tacticalsol.com/tshome/catego...barrel-upgrades

I don't see why a smith couldn't make a shroud like this and permanently attach it for a .223 as well.

Surefire suppressors have a brake at the end of the barrel that i am sure could be permanently attached. That would buy you a few inches.

The only other way I know is an integral suppressor. this is where the suppressor is built into the barrel and permanently attached. it is very common in .22's and even center fire bolt guns, but the only integral suppressed ar's that I know of are 9mm, but there may be others.

http://www.srtarms.com/custom.htm

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Raider1v1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

you can do that, the suppressor would have to be permanently attached somehow. i dont know if id recommend that, but thats how you could stay legal. </div></div>

I agree that a permanently mounted suppressor would not be a fantastic idea. Unless the main suppressor body unscrewed from the mounting lug (and the lug was long enough to get the correct barrel length) so it could be serviced, etc.

50calibercruiser · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

Here is my 7.62X25 AR. My YHM Phantom QD fits inside the extra large flash hider. The flash hider makes the barrel 16.5" the can adds 2" more when attached.

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

That's legal?!?!?! HaHaHaHaHaHa!

I can't believe it! I can make that myself.

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 50calcruiser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is my 7.62X25 AR. My YHM Phantom QD fits inside the extra large flash hider. The flash hider makes the barrel 16.5" the can adds 2" more when attached.

</div></div>

Very cool!

Am I correct in assuming that the "flash hider" is permanently attached to the barrel? I can think of 1001 ways of going about that but I don't know what would be the most effective. How is yours done? What constitutes "permanent" where legality is concerned?

Does your rail "full float" around the flash hider?

Any issues with barrel performance with a "flash hider" like that? I don't see it being an issue, it's not like it's a precision rifle shooting out to 1200m. Figured I would ask though.

Thanks!

50calibercruiser · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sqidd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 50calcruiser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is my 7.62X25 AR. My YHM Phantom QD fits inside the extra large flash hider. The flash hider makes the barrel 16.5" the can adds 2" more when attached.

</div></div>

Very cool!

Am I correct in assuming that the "flash hider" is permanently attached to the barrel? <span style="color: #FF0000"> Yes, it's spot welded to a collar that is threaded and tack welded (1/4" bead) to the barrel.</span>

I can think of 1001 ways of going about that but I don't know what would be the most effective. How is yours done? What constitutes "permanent" where legality is concerned? <span style="color: #FF0000"> My class 3 dealer helped me with the build, the ATF defines permanent as can't be removed with normal tools which is pretty ambiguous. So I spot welded</span>

Does your rail "full float" around the flash hider? <span style="color: #FF0000"> Yes</span>

Any issues with barrel performance with a "flash hider" like that? I don't see it being an issue, it's not like it's a precision rifle shooting out to 1200m. Figured I would ask though.<span style="color: #FF0000"> I have no idea, I've never shot it without the suppressor</span>

Thanks!

</div></div>

Graham · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sqidd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That's why they make integrally suppressed firearms. </div></div>Do tell. </div></div>http://www.tigon3.com/firearms/integrated-suppressed-pistols-rifles/

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 50calcruiser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yes, it's spot welded to a collar that is threaded and tack welded (1/4" bead) to the barrel.

My class 3 dealer helped me with the build, the ATF defines permanent as can't be removed with normal tools which is pretty ambiguous. So I spot welded

Yes
</div></div>

Yeah, that is a bit ambiguous, LOL. I'll probably tack weld it too. The only downside to that is that it has to be made out of steel then. Maybe a aluminum or titanium "flash hider" pressed and pinned to the collar and weld the collar to the barrel. Early days.

Am I assuming correctly that your suppressor threads on the barrel?

Did you shorten your existing barrel or start with a fresh one?

Thanks for the help.

n64atlas · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

integrally suppressed : you drill or EDM holes in the 16" barrel. The Suppresser tube goes over that. You can take the tube and baffels off to clean and still have a legal barrel length. Still alot of can makers that do this. Those that buy a stand alone can, usually have more than one rifle or pistol to use it on. The integrally suppressed is only for that rifle.

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

Here is another option. It wouldn't be quite as short as the big bubba flash hider but it would be a pretty clean setup. Its hard to tell from the site what the demensions of everything stacks up to be because I can't find the matching suppressor.

It looks like you can cut the barrel down to 12.5" or so and run this flash hider.

I don't know how long the matching suppressor is though. I can't find it on their site???

Tigon III site link

I like this option because I can run a long rail over the top of the suppressor so I can hold it with my arm fully extended.

Lots of options.....

Stalking_Rhino · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

ATF considers 1100 degree silver solder or pinned and welded as permanent.

Tack welds can be broken and are not approved.

50calibercruiser · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ATF considers 1100 degree silver solder or pinned and welded as permanent.

Tack welds can be broken and are not approved. </div></div>

I'd be interested to see where you got this information.

Stalking_Rhino · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 50calcruiser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ATF considers 1100 degree silver solder or pinned and welded as permanent.

Tack welds can be broken and are not approved. </div></div>

I'd be interested to see where you got this information. </div></div>

It was published by the ATF, looking for the link right now.

We were submitting an integral that was tack welded and the

ATF denied it since they could get it apart. They do not disclose their methods on getting it apart but they are extreme to say the least.

I know of at least 1 instance that they damaged and bent the barrel in order to break an integral silencer free and then said its not legal.

Chapter 2 of the NFA Handbook says.....
"The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over.</span></span> Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured."

I bolded and changed the color of the pertinent area.

sqidd · Nov 13, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 50calcruiser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ATF considers 1100 degree silver solder or pinned and welded as permanent.

Tack welds can be broken and are not approved. </div></div>

I'd be interested to see where you got this information. </div></div>

It was published by the ATF, looking for the link right now.

We were submitting an integral that was tack welded and the

ATF denied it since they could get it apart. They do not disclose their methods on getting it apart but they are extreme to say the least.

I know of at least 1 instance that they damaged and bent the barrel in order to break an integral silencer free and then said its not legal.

Chapter 2 of the NFA Handbook says.....
"The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over.</span></span> Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured."

I bolded and changed the color of the pertinent area. </div></div>

It sure would be a lot easier if we could have SBR's. Stupid laws.

50calibercruiser · Nov 14, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 50calcruiser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ATF considers 1100 degree silver solder or pinned and welded as permanent.

Tack welds can be broken and are not approved. </div></div>

I'd be interested to see where you got this information. </div></div>

It was published by the ATF, looking for the link right now.

We were submitting an integral that was tack welded and the

ATF denied it since they could get it apart. They do not disclose their methods on getting it apart but they are extreme to say the least.

I know of at least 1 instance that they damaged and bent the barrel in order to break an integral silencer free and then said its not legal.

Chapter 2 of the NFA Handbook says.....
"The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over.</span></span> Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured."

I bolded and changed the color of the pertinent area. </div></div>

Let me start by saying thank you for the information, the following is not directed at you.

I really don't like those guys guys.
"blind pinning and welding over the head" It clearly doesn't say what size of pin is required. By that definition a 1/32" pin would work. And it doesn't give a any sort of real requirement for "full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding" A solid tack weld with good penetration is fitting their vague rules. I suppose they could twist a barrel in two if they wanted. They give no explanation as to how they intend to test the "permanentness" of the part.

I feel that I kept with the spirit of the law. Barrel length greater than 16" and you'd need a drill press and lathe or a dremel to get is apart. On that note you could just as easily remove a pin and welded brake with the same tools.

RollingThunder51 · Nov 14, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

Sqidd,

When I read pieces like this I think to myself "cosmetics...this guy is all about how his rig looks."

Nowhere do you talk about:

1. Suppression values
2. Accuracy
3. Weight
4. Projectile signature
5. Flash suppression
6. Rate of fire
7. Use

All of the things that have to be considered to come close to getting the better than the nominal (read as "pathetic") suppression values that most get out of .223 14" barrels to begin with. Nothing wrong with cosmetics, but it has real consequences in this caliber. That MP5 you tried? That is a walk in the park...a dunk...compared to setting up a .223 can to get anywhere near as quiet. In fact, short of subsonic, you really can't. If short is what you "need," you have the wrong platform, cartridge. Short barrel, short suppressor .223 cans perform poorly compared to their full size brethren. Any thoughts about cutting the barrel back further only makes your issue worse on any number of the items I listed for you above...a lot worse.

My advice is to forget the cosmetics and go out and hear as many .223 cans as you can. It will all shake out in about 30 seconds.

Make your first can purchase a reasoned one.

Best.

P.S. Integral .223 cans are a poor solution. That would be integral, as opposed to dedicated, there is a huge difference.

n64atlas · Nov 14, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

a tack weld can be ground off very fast. Of course you can cut a barrel ust as fast. Add to that, there is no way you to tell fusion with out cutting the weld and etch testing. I welded production for 15 years. Was military certified to weld Humvee parts. We had to weld to spec and etch test every day. I've seen some welds that looked great, but never penatrated both sides. We had to re-certify every couple of years.

sqidd · Nov 14, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sqidd,

When I read pieces like this I think to myself "cosmetics...this guy is all about how his rig looks."

Nowhere do you talk about:

1. Suppression values
2. Accuracy
3. Weight
4. Projectile signature
5. Flash suppression
6. Rate of fire
7. Use

All of the things that have to be considered to come close to getting the better than the nominal (read as "pathetic") suppression values that most get out of .223 14" barrels to begin with. Nothing wrong with cosmetics, but it has real consequences in this caliber. That MP5 you tried? That is a walk in the park...a dunk...compared to setting up a .223 can to get anywhere near as quiet. In fact, short of subsonic, you really can't. If short is what you "need," you have the wrong platform, cartridge. Short barrel, short suppressor .223 cans perform poorly compared to their full size brethren. Any thoughts about cutting the barrel back further only makes your issue worse on any number of the items I listed for you above...a lot worse.

My advice is to forget the cosmetics and go out and hear as many .223 cans as you can. It will all shake out in about 30 seconds.

Make your first can purchase a reasoned one.

Best.

P.S. Integral .223 cans are a poor solution. That would be integral, as opposed to dedicated, there is a huge difference. </div></div>

Good advice, and I agree 100%. I don't have any practical reason for running one. I just think they are cool.

Since I started the thread I've been re-evaluating the idea of suppressing my M&P15. It will be a lot of work, a lot of money, I don't have any need for one and at the end of the day because I can't have a SBR in MI whatever solution I come up with will be rather half-assed.

Thanks

RollingThunder51 · Nov 14, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

I am glad you came to one of the two conclussions you did. I agree with the abandon the small OAL idea. I do not think you should abandon getting a can, just the opposite. I think, now that your state allows it, you should do it as fast as you can!

Get the very best can you can afford, full sized, highest quality and do it now...while you still can. Once you do your whole shooting experience will change...quieter and more accurate. You will definately be ahead.

Few purchases compare.

m1garand30064 · Nov 14, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am glad you came to one of the two conclussions you did. I agree with the abandon the small OAL idea. I do not think you should abandon getting a can, just the opposite. I think, now that your state allows it, you should do it as fast as you can!

Get the very best can you can afford, full sized, highest quality and do it now...while you still can. Once you do your whole shooting experience will change...quieter and more accurate. You will definately be ahead.

Few purchases compare.

</div></div>

Dont listen to this advice. Before you know it you'll have spent thousands trying to suppress everything you own!! I got sucked in and curse the day I heard a suppressed weapon!

sqidd · Nov 14, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am glad you came to one of the two conclussions you did. I agree with the abandon the small OAL idea. I do not think you should abandon getting a can, just the opposite. I think, now that your state allows it, you should do it as fast as you can!

Get the very best can you can afford, full sized, highest quality and do it now...while you still can. Once you do your whole shooting experience will change...quieter and more accurate. You will definately be ahead.

Few purchases compare.
</div></div>

LOL! I'm absolutely still going to get a can(s). They are way too cool not to have one/some. And for all we know in a few years we won't be able to get them anymore.

So here it comes..........the worse question that is probably ever asked in this section.........."What cans should I be looking at?" I don't even know where to start!

sqidd · Nov 14, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1garand30064</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Dont listen to this advice. Before you know it you'll have spent thousands trying to suppress everything you own!! I got sucked in and curse the day I heard a suppressed weapon!

</div></div>

I come from a motorsports racing background. I know all about "the sickness". I'm sure I will end up spending a LOT more money on cans than I should.

Thanks for trying to save me though.

popndrop · Nov 15, 2012

Re: How To Suppress And Stay Short

A solution that I've seen used first hand is an LMT MRP upper with a 12" barrel - where the can (in this case a Gemtech Trek)(5.7", for OAL of 16+") is then permanently attached via ATF approved methodology. This allows the barrel/can assembly to be removed as needed for cleaning or simply to use the gun with a barrel with no can attached. The package is perfect - the one I ran had the piston option barrel assembly, and performed perfectly as well as looked great. We actually tested this against several other cans and it performed excellent against cans twice the price (surefire).

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