A Question of Marksmanship...

KillShot · May 22, 2011

I read online, on one of the social networking sites, where a guy claimed his marine (referring to his son) can drop headshots "<span style="font-style: italic">all day long at 500yds with iron sights</span>".

Now, I have the <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">utmost</span></span> respect for our military but I couldn't help calling <span style="font-style: italic">bullshit</span> on that claim. I called bullshit because at 500yds, the mirage will be <span style="font-style: italic">crazy</span>. I don't think you could SEE the head of the silhouette, much less get "<span style="font-style: italic">headshots all day long</span>" as the iron sights will cover the entire silhouette at that distance.

Is that a <span style="font-style: italic">bullshit</span> story as I believe it to be, or is it possible to do with iron sights?

LegioX · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

If the target is large enough to establish a good POA, there are folks who can hold a head sized group at 500 yds. As far as holding on a head sized target w/irons? Bullshit. IMHO

J-Ham · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

... especially with any weapon the Marine Corps has... those M-16's are pretty whore-out.

kraigWY · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

The E-silhouette target is used on the Infantry Trophy Match (Rattle Battle) with iron sights. You start out at 600 yards and work your way down.

I’ve never had problems seeing the “head” of that target at that range.
Hitting it “every time” is a different mater, there are lots of claims on the internet, I can’t do it, I take such claims with a grain of salt.

Tripwire · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read online, on one of the social networking sites....</div></div>

Right there's your biggest problem.....just sayin'.

That said, if you run that kind of distance enough where it becomes "easy", then, well, 500 yards really isn't all that far.

And, most of those who can/do, don't waste a lot of time bragging about it online either.......

Alderleet · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

Better than I can do...

The Mechanic · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

The M-16 I was issued in Marine Corps boot was so bad you could have loaded a .30 bullet and it still wouldn't have hit the lands. "all day long"

Daps! · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

Sounds like a very proud father bragging a bit on his son. I bet the marine is much humbler. All in all I can think of worse things than a father who is proud of his marine.

pawprint · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

1MOA can be held with iron sights, "all day long", with the right rifle and the right sights, it is done all the time on the High Power Course, however, as many have pointed out, with an issued combat weapon, Marine or any other branch, dad is just proud of his son, and he should be, God Bless both of them.

tullius · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I called bullshit because at 500yds, the mirage will be <span style="font-style: italic">crazy</span>.</div></div>

Go try this and report back on how much mirage you see using iron sights. No spotting scope allowed. It can be done.

jr81452 · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

Don't know about the anonymous Marine, but your post seems to indicate that YOU don't spend much time at the 500 yard line...

Just sayin.

KillShot · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daps!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like a very proud father bragging a bit on his son. I bet the marine is much humbler. All in all I can think of worse things than a father who is proud of his marine.</div></div>

Agreed, and there's nothing wrong with bragging about your son until you start exaggerating (telling lies).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tullius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go try this and report back on how much mirage you see using iron sights. No spotting scope allowed. It can be done.
</div></div>

I have no access to a 500yd range, as U.S.S.A. only goes out to 300yds. And, I still call bullshit but not because I can't do it. You may be able to get a <span style="font-style: italic">headshot sized group</span> at 500yds, but I have a difficult time believing that a shooter is going to hit headshots with iron sights on a steel target <span style="font-style: italic">all day long at 500yds</span>, whether there's a mirage or not.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jr81452</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't know about the anonymous Marine, but your post seems to indicate that YOU don't spend much time at the 500 yard line...

Just sayin. </div></div>

As a matter of fact, I do not spend any amount of time on the 500yd line simply because I don't have access to a range that long.

If you're trying to make the point that I don't know what can or cannot be done at 500yds, you are correct, thus the reason I posted the question in the first place.

Unlike many others, I won't overstate my abilities with my equipment to make myself look good, and I never will. I don't claim to be a marksman or a source of wisdom for anything when it comes to firearms, and I never will.

armorpl8chikn · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

Although I am a rabid opponent of the term "all day long" I have been to some High Power matches where more than one "Master" class shooter proved quite capable of this claimed feat all day long, we won't even mention all the High Master class shooters. Is an "as issued" weapon capable of this....doubtful. Who knows, this marine may be an avid High Power Service Rifle shooter in his off time. If he is and has attained High Master status he can damn sure pull off this feat. There were a couple juniors on the line at my club last month that are Master class. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't happen. There are accuracy myths but this isn't one of them as evidenced by what my own eyes have seen. It is done every weekend at High Power matches all accross the country.

KillShot · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Although I am a rabid opponent of the term "all day long" I have been to some High Power matches where more than one "Master" class shooter proved quite capable of this claimed feat all day long, we won't even mention all the High Master class shooters. Is an "as issued" weapon capable of this....doubtful. Who knows, this marine may be an avid High Power Service Rifle shooter in his off time. If he is and has attained High Master status he can damn sure pull off this feat. There were a couple juniors on the line at my club last month that are Master class. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't happen. There are accuracy myths but this isn't one of them as evidenced by what my own eyes have seen. It is done every weekend at High Power matches all accross the country.</div></div>

Wow...what you've described is definitely something I would like to witness in person. That's pretty incredible!

Papagrizzly · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

Yes, lots of shooters that I have witnessed personally can do this, although it depends on the gun being used and the level of the shooter.

There are several that I know in the AMU that shoot a lot and have better than average weapons, and are expected to pull off shots like this. I agree with Armor that "all day long" is very subjective as the caliber, type of wind changes etc. all play a part in how you can shoot consistently. I have been to matches where the first relay could be relatively calm and then all hell breaks loose with fish-tailing wind, angle and speed changes etc.. a couple of hours later.

EddieNFL · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Although I am a rabid opponent of the term "all day long" I have been to some High Power matches where more than one "Master" class shooter proved quite capable of this claimed feat all day long, we won't even mention all the High Master class shooters. Is an "as issued" weapon capable of this....doubtful. Who knows, this marine may be an avid High Power Service Rifle shooter in his off time. If he is and has attained High Master status he can damn sure pull off this feat. There were a couple juniors on the line at my club last month that are Master class. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't happen. There are accuracy myths but this isn't one of them as evidenced by what my own eyes have seen. It is done every weekend at High Power matches all accross the country.</div></div>

Wow...what you've described is definitely something I would like to witness in person. That's pretty incredible! </div></div>

It's not an uncommon feat...not with rack grade service weapons, though.

armorpl8chikn · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

If you really want to see this kind of shooting here is a link and a contact in OKC:
http://okcgunclub.org/highpower/hp_midrange.html

pawprint · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

NRA Rule Book, Classification System Secion 19, 10SHOT AVerage Scores, rule 19.15 table 2, HIGH MASTER: 97.00 and up. For those wanting to see High Masters fire the course, go to a High Power Match in your area, offer to work the pits, you'll be most welcome!

J.Boyette · May 22, 2011

Re: A Question of Marksmanship...

Guys,

I have done it when I was under training with the AMU. As a matter of fact, I went 18 of 20 shots 4x in a row @ 600yds.

But that was with:

M-16A4 SDM rifle 20" bbl DD rail the AMU armors built <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">(VERY WELL)</span></span> might I add.
ACOG 4x
and a "special" brown box of MK262 loaded just for the AMU from BlackHills

AKA, call the BS flag on that one.

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