Maggie’s 04 June 1942

[Dead Eye Dick]

Lest We Forget

79 years ago today

Three aircraft carriers and all the aircrews they could muster

Young men, many not even old enough to vote

Went up against the most powerful Navy the World had ever seen

Who wanted above all else to capture the three little insignificant islands two of which are pictured below.

They had no right to win

But with a combination of skill, luck and uncommon courage

They prevailed.

Our gallant men of the United States Navy

Midway, 04 June 1942

May we never forget, may we always pray that our LORD reserves a special place for these gallant, brave young men, far too many died for you.

 

[duke308]

Seventy-Nine, not 72

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Scratch one flat-top!

 

[Maggot]

Amen.

 

[RUTGERS95]

amazing no mention in the news

 

[DocRDS]

Scratch one flat-top!

You mean four!

(wrong battle!)

I highly recommend Shattered Sword by Jon Parshall and Anthony Tully for history nuts as it compiles the Japanese actions/doctrines/etc for the first time. (and if you catch Parshall videos on You Tube about Midway and then follow up campaign--excellent stuff!)

Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

amazing no mention in the news

But to Microsoft’s Credit, on the face page of Bing, they show the picture that I also found and reported, the “islands that turned the tide.”

 

[sirhrmechanic]

You mean four!

(wrong battle!)

I highly recommend Shattered Sword by Jon Parshall and Anthony Tully for history nuts as it compiles the Japanese actions/doctrines/etc for the first time. (and if you catch Parshall videos on You Tube about Midway and then follow up campaign--excellent stuff!)

Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway

You are right! That was Coral Sea!

Yes, Midway was the turning point. Coral Sea was the draw. But Midway was the end of Japan’s “Six months to a year” of running rampant. Yamamoto had it right.

Thanks for the correction!

Sirhr

 

[Maggot]

Looking at the pictures of those islands makes me wonder what happens when a big storm hits. The one with the airfield doesnt appear to have much thats more than 2' above sea level.

 

[lightman]

RIP Men! You did your duty and more!

 

[BullGear]

Imagine asking the young men of today to make the same sacrifice.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Imagine asking the young men of today to make the same sacrifice.

Having been with the men currently serving (our son was full time military till the obama had his little temper tantrum and sequestered a large part of the military to teach us a lesson), I believe the men serving would lay down their lives for you and me. Lay down their lives even for the slugs who kneel at the Anthem.

 

[BullGear]

Having been with the men currently serving (our son was full time military till the obama had his little temper tantrum and sequestered a large part of the military to teach us a lesson), I believe the men serving would lay down their lives for you and me. Lay down their lives even for the slugs who kneel at the Anthem.

Those that choose to serve, yes. Those who would be a part of a draft, I don't think so.

 

[Expert684]

America!!

 

[brianf]

One of the most important overlooked days in the last 100 years.

Prob second only to Pearl Harbor in literally changing the world as it was known to what we have today.

 

[brianf]

You are right! That was Coral Sea!

Yes, Midway was the turning point. Coral Sea was the draw. But Midway was the end of Japan’s “Six months to a year” of running rampant. Yamamoto had it right.

Thanks for the correction!

Sirhr

Coral sea was a draw “on the battlefield”.
But if we look at the Qty and tonnage of boats both navies had at the time, we lost a bigger percentage.
The navy did t want to have another coral sea…we’d be in trouble.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Coral sea was a draw “on the battlefield”.
But if we look at the Qty and tonnage of boats both navies had at the time, we lost a bigger percentage.
The navy did t want to have another coral sea…we’d be in trouble.

Absolutely... I always considered it a 'draw' because by all estimates, the U.S. should have had its ass handed to it at Coral Sea. Japanese were better-equipped, better-trained, had more experience. And were doctrinally superior. That the U.S. held its own was in some ways a miracle. Yes, lost a few more ships. But anyone going into the battle might have said it's going to be a rout.

It gave Nimitz and Halsey the courage to spring their trap at Midway as well. That was also lopsided. But as after Kasserine Pass, the American fighting man adapted faster than virtually any army (in this case Navy) in history. Equipment improved dramatically. Production turned up to 11. The sailors and airmen suddenly had been battle-hardened and knew what worked in training... was not what worked over the Pacific. And they adapted in record time to beat the Japanese at their own game.

If Midway had been a serious defeat.... Hawaii would have been next. And Australia might well have been lost. That would have changed everything.

Yamamoto knew what was coming, too, if he lost. But he was sure he would not. He gambled at Midway, just as the Halsey and Nimitz did. And Yamamoto was an expert poker player -- he had essentially majored in it when he attended Harvard as a young naval officer (and never took a single class... instead spending his time running around America in awe of its vast might and productivity.)

At Midway, Yamamoto had three queens and a pair of jacks... and thought the war was in the bag. But Halsey laid down four deuces... and a joker in the form of his codebreakers. And that was all she wrote!

A year later, Yamamoto ended up as a smoking hole in the jungle. Nimitz went on to get a whole class of carriers named after him.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

A thought on the Coral Sea. It was a tactical victory for the Japanese. We lost the Lexington and the Yorktown was heavily damaged. They lost the Shoho and the Shokaku was damaged and the Zuikaku was depleted of combat aircraft. The amount of shipping lost in tonnage by the US was over twice what the Japanese lost. The Japanese thought they had won a great victory, losing the opportunity to invade Port Moresby only a minor setback.

However, while the Japanese earned a tactical victory the United States earned a Strategic victory. First, we stopped the Japanese for the first time and stopped the invasion of Port Moresby. Second, due to Japanese naval doctrine, both Fleet Carriers that participated in the Coral Sea were not available for the battle at Midway. Rather than combine the remaining aircrews on the Zuikaku, those pilots sat at home while the our aircraft destroyed their aircraft and carrier fleet at Midway.

Describing the doctrine of the Kido Butai, the carriers operate as a pair and aircrews were designated for each carrier and would not be transferred. Several Japanese Aircraft Carriers had the island on the port instead of starboard. It was decided by the Japanese that pairs of carriers could more safely operate if the aircraft on the port side would best have its aircraft fly to port while the starboard carrier‘s aircraft would fly to starboard.

Port = left
Starboard = right.

 

[DocRDS]

Indeed, Coral Sea was the setup play for Midway. The original plan was for all 6 fleet CVs to participate. Had all 6 been there, victory would have been all but impossible (stranger things have happened though). Say the US still smashes 3 at 10:20. That still leave 3 Carriers vs 3 US Carriers (and Midway). The Japanese operation capacity was beyond anything the US had--they could launch in 15 mins. Only Yorktown could match that. Enterprise and Hornet were still green.

OTOH it has been argued that the outcome was inevitable, had Japan won at Midway, the onslaught of American Mfg was still coming. It would have only delayed the inevitable. However, the battle as it happened probably shortened the war by 12-18 months.

The article always stuns me.

Grim Economic Realities

And I want to make it clear, I dont want to diminish what happened on June 4, 1942. Regardless of the 'what ifs', those genetleman earned every praise that has been sung in the past 80 years. The Japanese Navy was superior in every conceivable way. Balls of Steel does not begin to cover the Torpedo Squadrons, and the mastery of the US Navy Air Power was initiated. It truly demonstrates the adapatibility of the American Warrior.

 

[brianf]

Absolutely... I always considered it a 'draw' because by all estimates, the U.S. should have had its ass handed to it at Coral Sea. Japanese were better-equipped, better-trained, had more experience. And were doctrinally superior. That the U.S. held its own was in some ways a miracle. Yes, lost a few more ships. But anyone going into the battle might have said it's going to be a rout.

It gave Nimitz and Halsey the courage to spring their trap at Midway as well. That was also lopsided. But as after Kasserine Pass, the American fighting man adapted faster than virtually any army (in this case Navy) in history. Equipment improved dramatically. Production turned up to 11. The sailors and airmen suddenly had been battle-hardened and knew what worked in training... was not what worked over the Pacific. And they adapted in record time to beat the Japanese at their own game.

If Midway had been a serious defeat.... Hawaii would have been next. And Australia might well have been lost. That would have changed everything.

Yamamoto knew what was coming, too, if he lost. But he was sure he would not. He gambled at Midway, just as the Halsey and Nimitz did. And Yamamoto was an expert poker player -- he had essentially majored in it when he attended Harvard as a young naval officer (and never took a single class... instead spending his time running around America in awe of its vast might and productivity.)

At Midway, Yamamoto had three queens and a pair of jacks... and thought the war was in the bag. But Halsey laid down four deuces... and a joker in the form of his codebreakers. And that was all she wrote!

A year later, Yamamoto ended up as a smoking hole in the jungle. Nimitz went on to get a whole class of carriers named after him.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Reading a book many years about the war games that were run by the British and the US.

if I remember after 90-100 cycles the Americans still did not win battle of midway

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Indeed, Coral Sea was the setup play for Midway. The original plan was for all 6 fleet CVs to participate. Had all 6 been there, victory would have been all but impossible (stranger things have happened though). Say the US still smashes 3 at 10:20. That still leave 3 Carriers vs 3 US Carriers (and Midway). The Japanese operation capacity was beyond anything the US had--they could launch in 15 mins. Only Yorktown could match that. Enterprise and Hornet were still green.

OTOH it has been argued that the outcome was inevitable, had Japan won at Midway, the onslaught of American Mfg was still coming. It would have only delayed the inevitable. However, the battle as it happened probably shortened the war by 12-18 months.

The article always stuns me.

Grim Economic Realities

And I want to make it clear, I dont want to diminish what happened on June 4, 1942. Regardless of the 'what ifs', those genetleman earned every praise that has been sung in the past 80 years. The Japanese Navy was superior in every conceivable way. Balls of Steel does not begin to cover the Torpedo Squadrons, and the mastery of the US Navy Air Power was initiated. It truly demonstrates the adapatibility of the American Warrior.

Richard Ovary’s book “Why the Allies Won”’is a superb treatise. And one of the pioneering books that looked at war from an economic point of view.

It’s must reading when it comes to understanding the Allied victory.

I always thought Ovary copped out in his ultimate conclusion. But I’ll leave that for you guys to decide.

Sirhr

 

[isofahunter]

I am late, but RIP William Douglas Carter. A gentleman of the first order, I had the privilege of knowing him, and his family to this day are dear friends. What he and his mates did was extraordinary.

William Carter

valor.militarytimes.com

 

[DocRDS]

Those videos incorporate much of the modern scholarship of what actually happened. (aka Enterprise and Hornets Torpedos squadrons basically 'ran out the clock' on the launch window and it the the Yorktown attack that pulled the CAP off). Also Yorktown got off a coordinated strike due to XP from COral See while Enterprise and Hornet went off piecemeal. Its rumored that Hornet's pilots are still flying over the pacific to this day...(I kid, i kid). BUt big E's pilots salvaged the strike by following the destroyer home and the breaking off the Kaga attack to hit Akagi. The fog of war hit both sides....