1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

B

bluesman423

Private
Minuteman
Nov 29, 2009
8
0
65
#1
After reading a response to something I posted I started thining about group size. Simply stated, 1/2" 5 shot groups are just not that hard to attain.

Or, maybe I measure mine differently. I place markers in the two outermost holes, then measure outside to outside and subtract one bullet diameter to get group size.

At one time I had a lot of trigger time but it has been over twenty years so I figure I am just an average shot at best. However, if I purchase a heavy barrel bolt action rifle of any caliber or brand and it won't shoot .500 without a little tweaking it gets sold and I buy another. I have kept records for the last 29 years and have owned 17 rifles that would go under 1/2" and two of them were light barreled. One was a Mannlicher stocked Mauser 98 in 30-06 Ackley Improved.

For this reason, I find it hard to believe that people's heavy barreled factory rifles with good scopes and quality ammo (match or handloads) will not shoot .500 or better off the bench for five shots at 100 yards.

Am I crazy? What is your experience?
 
#3
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

The method you use to measure the group shouldn't matter. And, at close range, good groups are easy to make: shoot at 100 yards from the bench and use flat-based bullets. Doing that should put you well under 1/2 MOA with a good rifle.
 
#4
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The method you use to measure the group shouldn't matter. And, at close range, good groups are easy to make: shoot at 100 yards from the bench and use flat-based bullets. Doing that should put you well under 1/2 MOA with a good rifle.
</div></div>

I thought maybe things had changed when I took a break from serious shooting and people had begun measuring outside to outside which, especially in 30 caliber, would make a .500 group tough to do.
 
#5
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

This is the internet! Don't you know everyone can shoot .25 inch or better! haha
It's the person pulling the trigger.

Pop
 
#6
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

Shooting a 1/2" group occasionally is very common. What isn't so common is shooting 1/2" groups time and time again. What is even harder is keeping those 1/2MOA groups out past a couple of hundred yards. Yet a lot of people out there shoot one three-shot group at 100yds that came in at 1/2", and the next thing you know they are all over the internet bragging about their 1/2MOA rifle.
 
#7
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

...well not fer nuthin but in some circles 1/2 " @ 100 yds is no big deal and the <span style="font-style: italic">least</span> of what is expected/accepted...

...of course that would be comparing field guns against bench rest rifles and single shot varmit rifles...
 
#9
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

not this circle. people tend to massage their egos with their 1/2" production rifles. they are not as common as their owners believe them to be. i never do see a PAGE of groups accompanying any of these production rifles either. i see rifles and groups posted on here all the time that are over 1/2" with very proud owners and everyone jumps in to tell the owner how great their rifle is shooting. i guess people are just nice that way.

chuck
 
#10
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not this circle. people tend to massage their egos with their 1/2" production rifles. they are not as common as their owners believe them to be. i never do see a PAGE of groups accompanying any of these production rifles either. i see rifles and groups posted on here all the time that are over 1/2" with very proud owners and everyone jumps in to tell the owner how great their rifle is shooting. i guess people are just nice that way.

chuck</div></div>

Lol. i have noticed that in my short time here. I am no crackshot, however i do know how to shoot. I have recently obtained a .2 MOA production rifle. I got a R5 Remington 700 in 308. Out of the box i mounted a leupold to break in the barrel. after 40 shots i had shot half a dozen 5 shots groups under 1/2". Now the rifle is in pieces and heading to Kampfield Customs. Can't wait to get it back. It's going to get a Nightforce 5.5-22x56. Ill post some pics to prove it's worth...
 
#12
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

Personally I think 1/2" groups at 100 yards is boring.

Is the group 0.50" or 0.42" or 0.48"?
Who give a sh*t?

Skill is shooting well, consistently, at multiple distances over 300 yards from different positions.

Just my 2 cents.
 
#13
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

Here is all I will say on this.

If you can do it, take it to a tactical match and clean up. It's amazing how many of these rifles and shooters exist on the Internet and the locker rooms and how few show up at competitions where thousands of dollars worth of prizes are on the table.
 
#14
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PinkGunsRSilly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not this circle. people tend to massage their egos with their 1/2" production rifles. they are not as common as their owners believe them to be. i never do see a PAGE of groups accompanying any of these production rifles either. i see rifles and groups posted on here all the time that are over 1/2" with very proud owners and everyone jumps in to tell the owner how great their rifle is shooting. i guess people are just nice that way.

chuck</div></div>

Lol. i have noticed that in my short time here. I am no crackshot, however i do know how to shoot. I have recently obtained a .2 MOA production rifle. I got a R5 Remington 700 in 308. Out of the box i mounted a leupold to break in the barrel. after 40 shots i had shot half a dozen 5 shots groups under 1/2". Now the rifle is in pieces and heading to Kampfield Customs. Can't wait to get it back. It's going to get a Nightforce 5.5-22x56. Ill post some pics to prove it's worth... </div></div>

.2 MOA production rifle? And you took it apart to have work done to it?
 
#15
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is all I will say on this.

If you can do it, take it to a tactical match and clean up. It's amazing how many of these rifles and shooters exist on the Internet and the locker rooms and how few show up at competitions where thousands of dollars worth of prizes are on the table. </div></div>

Ain't it the truth. I keep hearing this crap all the time. One actually showed up at match with a rifle that supposedly could put 10 in a dime at 100 and still leave some change. Well at 200 he couldn't keep 3 in a dollar bill and at 400 it was embarrassing.
 
#16
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg264</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PinkGunsRSilly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not this circle. people tend to massage their egos with their 1/2" production rifles. they are not as common as their owners believe them to be. i never do see a PAGE of groups accompanying any of these production rifles either. i see rifles and groups posted on here all the time that are over 1/2" with very proud owners and everyone jumps in to tell the owner how great their rifle is shooting. i guess people are just nice that way.

chuck</div></div>

Lol. i have noticed that in my short time here. I am no crackshot, however i do know how to shoot. I have recently obtained a .2 MOA production rifle. I got a R5 Remington 700 in 308. Out of the box i mounted a leupold to break in the barrel. after 40 shots i had shot half a dozen 5 shots groups under 1/2". Now the rifle is in pieces and heading to Kampfield Customs. Can't wait to get it back. It's going to get a Nightforce 5.5-22x56. Ill post some pics to prove it's worth... </div></div>

.2 MOA production rifle? And you took it apart to have work done to it?</div></div>

I didnt seperate the barrel from the action or anything drastic. I am just adding a brake, bolt knob and a cera-kote job. It will still shoot great, im sure of it...
 
#18
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

Shooting a 1/2" group at 100 yds isn't all that hard to do in ideal conditions,taking your time, and concentrating on fundamentals.Now go do it with wind, rain, dirt,noise,muzzle blast pounding you and throw some adrenaline in the mix ( with excited breathing).It'll be a humbling experience.
 
#19
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

I have learned the hard way that groups don't really mean shit. Doesn't matter if you can shoot a 3/8" 5 shot group consistently. Why not take a target that changes your POI and try to clear it out and then come tell everyone how good you are.

I mean I am by no means half as good as guys like Shaggsback, Wil, later, ChadTRG, Boltripper, and the list can go on. But when they give advice, I listen and listen well to what they say. Its guys like them that has tought me GROUPS DON'T MEAN SHIT. It is about shot placement after changing your POI from target to target and hitting that next mark.

Wesley
 
#20
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

An accurate rifle is one that puts a bullet hole as close as possible to the position of the sights (or the reticle) everytime. If the shot ends up at four o'clock, and you called it low and right, then you've got an accurate rifle.

The more accurate the rifle, the more influence the quality of your hold will have on the bullet impact on target. And that's what we strive for.

So groups mean something: Because whether we shoot a few cold bore shots over a few days, or a bunch of rapid-fire shots on a stage, we're always shooting a group.

But whether we measure the group center to center, or from the outside edges and subtract, doesn't really matter (except mathematically, if, for example, you want to derive the size of a proportionally larger group from a smaller one).

If the holes on the paper match the sight alignment when we pulled the trigger, that tells us what we need to know about the rifle/ammo system we are using.
 
#21
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have learned the hard way that groups don't really mean shit. Doesn't matter if you can shoot a 3/8" 5 shot group consistently. Why not take a target that changes your POI and try to clear it out and then come tell everyone how good you are.

I mean I am by no means half as good as guys like Shaggsback, Wil, later, ChadTRG, Boltripper, and the list can go on. But when they give advice, I listen and listen well to what they say. Its guys like them that has tought me GROUPS DON'T MEAN SHIT. It is about shot placement after changing your POI from target to target and hitting that next mark.

Wesley </div></div>



i think groups do mean something, tac ops, gap and others who build high end rifles would not sell as many as they do if at 100 yards they didnt have those tight little groups.
if you can shoot sub 1/2 moa with factory ammo that means something doesnt it.
 
#22
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

Agree with LoneWolf.

Sitting on your butt at a bench, punching some holes in paper can tell you what the rifle is capable of, but doesn't tell you much about the ability of the shooter (i.e., lots of people can do it, your wife/girlfriend, the old man or little kid down the street, etc.).

Other than that, it's meaningless unless you compete and find out how good YOU really are (or are NOT).

You want a rifle that will shoot well, but the ability to put lead on target is what matters.

Doing it consistently, at distance and with wind (from only God knows exactly what angle) is a challenge.

And the biggest challenge is right between your ears.
 
#23
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

I agree, groups do tell you what the rifle can do and that is important.

when you start shooting longer ranges and find out it takes lots of practice to make sub moa hits, at least you cant blame it on the rifle.
 
#24
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have learned the hard way that groups don't really mean shit. Doesn't matter if you can shoot a 3/8" 5 shot group consistently. Why not take a target that changes your POI and try to clear it out and then come tell everyone how good you are.

I mean I am by no means half as good as guys like Shaggsback, Wil, later, ChadTRG, Boltripper, and the list can go on. But when they give advice, I listen and listen well to what they say. Its guys like them that has tought me GROUPS DON'T MEAN SHIT. It is about shot placement after changing your POI from target to target and hitting that next mark.

Wesley </div></div>



i think groups do mean something, tac ops, gap and others who build high end rifles would not sell as many as they do if at 100 yards they didnt have those tight little groups.
if you can shoot sub 1/2 moa with factory ammo that means something doesnt it. </div></div>



Ok, how about this one right here....

Say we both have the exact same rifle/optic set up. GAP crusader in 308 with a S&B PMII scope. We both shoot for groups at 100 yards and we both get 5 rounds in 3/8 of an inch. That is sub MOA by a long ways.

Then we decide to shoot the "Smack The Smiley" target at 100 yards. One of us will out shoot the other because we are changing the "points of impact". You are not doing the same shot back to back. You are re-adjusting everything just by moving the POI over a few inches. You are not aiming for the same spot for every shot.

To me, it is about hitting that "1" mark the first time every time. I have a very long ways to go still, but I am done shooting for groups. I am more in to shooting targets that will give me more of a challenge. Next time you go to the range, try this. Shoot one round from the bench, next shot from prone, the third shot from standing, the forth shot from prone, the last shot from sitting on the ground. By doing that, you are changing everything and there is no guarantee that when you get in a previous position, you'll do the same.

But thats just me...
 
#27
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PinkGunsRSilly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not this circle. people tend to massage their egos with their 1/2" production rifles. they are not as common as their owners believe them to be. i never do see a PAGE of groups accompanying any of these production rifles either. i see rifles and groups posted on here all the time that are over 1/2" with very proud owners and everyone jumps in to tell the owner how great their rifle is shooting. i guess people are just nice that way.

chuck</div></div>

Lol. i have noticed that in my short time here. I am no crackshot, however i do know how to shoot. I have recently obtained a .2 MOA production rifle. <span style="font-weight: bold">I got a R5 Remington 700 in 308. Out of the box i mounted a leupold to break in the barrel. after 40 shots i had shot half a dozen 5 shots groups under 1/2". Now the rifle is in pieces and heading to Kampfield Customs. Can't wait to get it back.</span> It's going to get a Nightforce 5.5-22x56. Ill post some pics to prove it's worth... </div></div>
normal_CocaineRickJames.jpg
 
#29
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so do you not shoot groups at 100 yards from a bench with a new rifle to see what it can do, or do you just go right to all of the different positions </div></div>

Yes, groups can help diagnose problems or confirm that there are none. However they are not generally good training.

Let's say you are shooting one of those fantastic groups. Three shots in the same hole. Then #4 goes wide and opens your "perfect" group up to .75". How many guys won't give a rats ass about #5 because the group is "ruined"? Some will even go as far as to call it a "flyer" and still claim it a 1/4" rifle.

If you enjoy shooting groups, then go for it. It's not my place to tell you how to enjoy your
time. Just realize that shooting groups has little to do with the tactical application of a scoped rifle. That is what this site is about afterall.
 
#30
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so do you not shoot groups at 100 yards from a bench with a new rifle to see what it can do, or do you just go right to all of the different positions </div></div>

Yes, groups can help diagnose problems or confirm that there are none. However they are not generally good training.

Let's say you are shooting one of those fantastic groups. Three shots in the same hole. Then #4 goes wide and opens your "perfect" group up to .75". How many guys won't give a rats ass about #5 because the group is "ruined"? Some will even go as far as to call it a "flyer" and still claim it a 1/4" rifle.

If you enjoy shooting groups, then go for it. It's not my place to tell you how to enjoy your
time. Just realize that shooting groups has little to do with the tactical application of a scoped rifle. That is what this site is about afterall. </div></div>




i agree with you, if you want to make a bunch of holes in paper than a bench rifle is the way to go.
but i dont think it is correct to say "groups dont mean shit".
i personally think shooting at 100 yards from a bench for groups,load developing, or even getting a zero is the most boring thing one can do with a rifle.
 
#31
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so do you not shoot groups at 100 yards from a bench with a new rifle to see what it can do, or do you just go right to all of the different positions </div></div>

Yes, groups can help diagnose problems or confirm that there are none. However they are not generally good training.

Let's say you are shooting one of those fantastic groups. Three shots in the same hole. Then #4 goes wide and opens your "perfect" group up to .75". How many guys won't give a rats ass about #5 because the group is "ruined"? Some will even go as far as to call it a "flyer" and still claim it a 1/4" rifle.

If you enjoy shooting groups, then go for it. It's not my place to tell you how to enjoy your
time. Just realize that shooting groups has little to do with the tactical application of a scoped rifle. That is what this site is about afterall. </div></div>


You said it better than I could have LoneWolf. The only time I aim at the same point is when I sight in. After that, it is about picking a mark and hitting it with the next round that leaves the barrel.

I plan on shooting some matches with ya'll guys that are better. I know I'll get my ass handed to me, but I'm more than willing to try.
 
#32
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

IMHO shooting groups can help learn your equipment and build confidence it is performing correctly. However, as a bench shooter, I commonly am humbled when I try other games! Hence my attempts to broaden MY skills. Once the hardware is known to perform (i.e. minimize variables on the bench) its time for the shooter to perform.
 
#34
Re: 1/2" groups are not hard to do, or are they

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bluesman423</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading a response to something I posted I started thining about group size. Simply stated, 1/2" 5 shot groups are just not that hard to attain.

Or, maybe I measure mine differently. I place markers in the two outermost holes, then measure outside to outside and subtract one bullet diameter to get group size.

At one time I had a lot of trigger time but it has been over twenty years so I figure I am just an average shot at best. However, if I purchase a heavy barrel bolt action rifle of any caliber or brand and it won't shoot .500 without a little tweaking it gets sold and I buy another. I have kept records for the last 29 years and have owned 17 rifles that would go under 1/2" and two of them were light barreled. One was a Mannlicher stocked Mauser 98 in 30-06 Ackley Improved.

For this reason, I find it hard to believe that people's heavy barreled factory rifles with good scopes and quality ammo (match or handloads) will not shoot .500 or better off the bench for five shots at 100 yards.

Am I crazy? What is your experience? </div></div>

bluesman423,

I'll stick my neck out here with some of my experiences
smile.gif
.

I was the type of gun enthusiast that tried the typical stock rifles Rugers,Remingtons 700 and 788's,SAKO's,Winchesters,Voer,TC and others I can't think of.Shooting over the years with both factory ammo and handloads.Half of those rifles as heavy barreled varmint rifles and half as sporters.I glass bedded most of them and that helped but the best were 3/4 MOA rifles.Actually most of those rifles were 1.25" shooters.

Out of all those rifles I got maybe a handfull of 1/2 MOA groups and considered those pretty much luck.

The first consistent 1/2 MOA rifle I owned was a 220 swift that I bought used with an old Enfield action,Douglas heavy match barrel and big ol maple laminate stock.I was amazed because I had always wondered how people shot consistent 1/2" groups and thought for sure it was just my lousy shooting ability before.

I kind of got out of rifles for many years and got into combat pistol shooting instead.But...

A friend stumbled onto Snipers Hide and our interest in long range shooting was sparked again.So we both bought a Cooper varmint rifle each.The Cooper's can be considered a factory custom rifle.Both were .5-.6 MOA rifles with good handloads.

So next I bought a custom 6ppc benchrest rifle with the intention of changing the barrel out to 6.5-284 later.I also got a good rest and rear bag.I did not play with it much but Man...what an education!!!
shocked.gif
I never shot a group more than 1/2" with it.Most 5 shot groups at 100 yards were in the .2's of an inch and many in the .1's.All while shooting with this rifle F-class style in the dirt.

When I got the bench rifle chambered to 6.5-284 it would briefly shoot in the .4's but the barrel burned out at 1200 rounds.Then I had a new barrel put on in 6x47L and the gun shot consistently in the .2's.I sold the gun recently and had the buyer email me excitedly commenting that his first group out of the rifle was in the low .1's.

I said all this because I've found it rare for stock rifles to shoot 5 shot 1/2" groups.Maybe the newer stock rifles are more accurate on average than they used to be???

We don't have a cement shooting bench around where I live so having one probably helps group shooting allot.I'm quite sure I could of shot more 1/2" groups on a good bench.

I also think how consistently the rifle tracks back upon recoil makes a huge difference "especially" when trying to shoot small groups.

I'm mostly into my custom tactical repeaters and extreme range rifles and don't shoot groups too much except for working up loads or checking zero.They all shoot 1/2" or less but they better for the $ I got into them,LOL.

Steve











 
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