100 shot group...

[Alabusa]

At 50 yards using CCI sv ammo, 10 shot mags, the bed of my truck as a prone platform and a bipod with rear bag. My FVSR was the rifle.

I am working on consistency and feel large shot # groups show it better. I did have 2 fliers and 1 bad pull.

Whatcha think??

.

 

[justin amateur]

I'm thinking that is a fairly good example of what you get from bulk 22lr for 50 shots.
No cherry picking, every shot in one spot for analysis, warts and all.
To obtain more useful information, do y'er testing across an inexpensive ballistic chronograph.
The numbers measured will explain much regarding ammo quality and target results.
Get in the habit of scrawling conditions, rifle, distance, chrony numbers and ammo used on y'er targets.
Handy for tracking ammo quality and improvement over time.

 

[Alabusa]

Justin Amateur,

What do you think $20 a box ammo would have done? It would need to cut group size in half or more to justidubthw price ro me.

 

[Alabusa]

I think that, a lot of the people showing .2 5 shot groups would get a wake up call shooting a 100 shot group. Especially with 9 mag changes qnb reloading the mags during the shoot. Might make for a good challenge if everyone was honest, especially with themselves.

 

[justin amateur]

The difference in ammo quality is immediately visible when shooting and viewing all 50 shots in one spot.
A couple of examples for you....


The setup at 200 yards

The results, conditions and chrony numbers

My best results have come from the more expensive 22lr.
Better accuracy at all distances from 25 yards to 200 yards.
I don't shoot indoors, so it's important to compare conditions to the shot pattern.
As you can see, even with the lower wind speed,
the pistol match didn't have the better mv's or target spread.

That's not to say I don't get my adze kicked when I have to deal with a tailwind.
Look what happens with the same setup and a 4 mph tailwind
which is spitting vertical turbulence over the range from the roof line.
MV's are good, but vertical due to wind kills it.

 

[RTH1800]

Interesting but I think your testing metholodogy renders your data much less useful. Bipod and bag is not a huge deal but you did it from a moving truck due to springs, wind etc.

 

[Alabusa]

The difference in ammo quality is immediately visible when shooting and viewing all 50 shots in one spot.
A couple of examples for you....


The setup at 200 yards

The results, conditions and chrony numbers

My best results have come from the more expensive 22lr.
Better accuracy at all distances from 25 yards to 200 yards.
I don't shoot indoors, so it's important to compare conditions to the shot pattern.
As you can see, even with the lower wind speed,
the pistol match didn't have the better mv's or target spread.

That's not to say I don't get my adze kicked when I have to deal with a tailwind.
Look what happens with the same setup and a 4 mph tailwind
which is spitting vertical turbulence over the range from the roof line.
MV's are good, but vertical due to wind kills it.

I get pretty close to that with CCI sv ammo. A bit closer with Federal HV match. My next trip to the range, I will pick up some really good ammo and post the results. I am interested ok n the difference.

 

[Alabusa]

Interesting but I think your testing metholodogy renders your data much less useful. Bipod and bag is not a huge deal but you did it from a moving truck due to springs, wind etc.

I wonder how much difference a solid platform would make? At the range, I can shoot off of concrete benches or prone on a concrete slab.
Sounds like I have more testing to do. Thanks for twisting my arm to go shoot more.??

 

[RTH1800]

I am guessing you will see some improvement. Your group is not bad now so going to be good.

 

[honuswagner]

This looks similar to what I get with CCI Standard Velocity as well. Groups are exceptionally tight at 25-50yds, open up to around 2" at 100, I think it's to be expected with the combination of light bullet + low velocity + low BC.

I am able to push the CCI SV out to 308 yds and hit a 8x10" steel plate consistently when the wind isn't too chaotic, so it's certainly capable, just not going to group as tight as you might want.

I've read that the CCI Green Tag ammo is SV rounds that are sorted for better consistency, anyone tried those?

I'm also curious if anyone has tried these: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...nition-22-long-rifle-60-grain-lead-round-nose

They are available locally, but only in a brick. I haven't wanted to drop that much cash, been watching for a 50 round box to try out. Looks like it could be hit or miss as far as your gun/barrel combination go, but might be worth a try for tighter groups at longer range.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

When I want to get a more thorough evaluation of a centerfire load, I do something similar. I shoot a 40 round group at 200 yds. That tells the tale.

 

[MarkCZ]

Are these high round count groups being shot over wind flags? If not, how do you know , the group size is from the ammo or wind. Wind can give Hoz. and Vertical. spread. I know at long range ES in velocity, will give you Vertical. When shooting 50 to 100 rounds groups, you are going to see condition changes, that will effect you groups.
For years I shot centerfire groups without flags. After going with wind flags, I learned that the slightest wing, even one you can't feel, but can see with wind flags, will move your group around. I was shooting groups at 200yds with a centerfire. The only wind was moving the ribbon on the back of the flag. when the ribbon would blow to the right, the shot would move to the right a few 0.2". When the flag would drop, the shot would fall back into the group.
That day I shot a 0.122" group at 200yds, by waiting on the ribbon to fall.

I have fired many groups over the years, thinking they were just ok, but did not see the wind was opening them up. The 22LR is much more effected by the wind than any centerfire.

Mark

 

[RTH1800]

I am wondering if the process of testing does not effect the outcome?

ie barrel warms up, fouls etc.

Would it not make more sense to test 10 10 shot groups and allow specific intervals of cooling between strings?

This is a question, not a criticism.

 

[justin amateur]

CCI Green Tag ammo ....no joy....it's a CCI product.
Same machines, same manually applied primer installation.
Chrono numbers show mv spread about the same as CCI SV.

 

[justin amateur]

I am wondering if the process of testing does not effect the outcome?

For the 22lr, barrel heating isn't a real problem with a heavy barrel.
22wmr, 17hmr and 17wsm require 5 shots, then let cool. Repeat for 50 shots.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Are these high round count groups being shot over wind flags? If not, how do you know , the group size is from the ammo or wind. Wind can give Hoz. and Vertical. spread. I know at long range ES in velocity, will give you Vertical. When shooting 50 to 100 rounds groups, you are going to see condition changes, that will effect you groups.
For years I shot centerfire groups without flags. After going with wind flags, I learned that the slightest wing, even one you can't feel, but can see with wind flags, will move your group around. I was shooting groups at 200yds with a centerfire. The only wind was moving the ribbon on the back of the flag. when the ribbon would blow to the right, the shot would move to the right a few 0.2". When the flag would drop, the shot would fall back into the group.
That day I shot a 0.122" group at 200yds, by waiting on the ribbon to fall.

I have fired many groups over the years, thinking they were just ok, but did not see the wind was opening them up. The 22LR is much more effected by the wind than any centerfire.

Mark

When doing this with a centerfire, I am mainly looking at vertical dispersion. It is fairly easy to estimate the average horizontal dispertion of the wind you are shooting in and consider that in the evaluation.

I still shoot five round groups to control for heat, I just use the same point of aim. If I was evaluating a competition gun, I would shoot 10 round strings to see what the barrel does when it heats, but then you are evaluating the barrel rather than just the load.

 

[honuswagner]

I have fired many groups over the years, thinking they were just ok, but did not see the wind was opening them up. The 22LR is much more effected by the wind than any centerfire.

Excellent point.

 

[Alabusa]

I am wondering if the process of testing does not effect the outcome?

ie barrel warms up, fouls etc.

Would it not make more sense to test 10 10 shot groups and allow specific intervals of cooling between strings?

This is a question, not a criticism.

Barrel never gets even warm enough to tell a difference, much less hot.

 

[Alabusa]

Are these high round count groups being shot over wind flags? If not, how do you know , the group size is from the ammo or wind. Wind can give Hoz. and Vertical. spread. I know at long range ES in velocity, will give you Vertical. When shooting 50 to 100 rounds groups, you are going to see condition changes, that will effect you groups.
For years I shot centerfire groups without flags. After going with wind flags, I learned that the slightest wing, even one you can't feel, but can see with wind flags, will move your group around. I was shooting groups at 200yds with a centerfire. The only wind was moving the ribbon on the back of the flag. when the ribbon would blow to the right, the shot would move to the right a few 0.2". When the flag would drop, the shot would fall back into the group.
That day I shot a 0.122" group at 200yds, by waiting on the ribbon to fall.

I have fired many groups over the years, thinking they were just ok, but did not see the wind was opening them up. The 22LR is much more effected by the wind than any centerfire.

Mark

It was windy the day I shot this group but the wind was constant. At least as far as I could tell. I will add flags to my regimen asap.
Thanks for the tip.

 

[RTH1800]

I’m sure it never gets “hot” but am wondering about slight changes in temp, bore lube, fouling etc.
Likely not an issue. Just my OCD

 

[pmclaine]

You only hit the center once......

 

[Roo_man]

Nice shooting...

 

[justin amateur]

You only hit the center once

Good point.
If you are truly attempting precision shooting, groups aren't the way to go.
One dot-one shot targets are my preference when at the range.

Every shot requires a change in body position and rifle alignment.
Learn more, faster, improvement is easy to track.

 

[Alabusa]

You only hit the center once......

And that wasn't intended as was not where it was grouping. Sighted dead on for another ammo.

You only hit the center once

Good point.
If you are truly attempting precision shooting, groups aren't the way to go.
One dot-one shot targets are my preference when at the range.

Every shot requires a change in body position and rifle alignment.
Learn more, faster, improvement is easy to track.

I need and will start doing this. I can see where this would be most beneficial. Thanks!

 

[RTH1800]

How you should test depends on what you are testing.

I like to learn my rifles limits then transition to learning my limits. Remove all veriables possible.

I think 10 shots impacting off point of aim ten times in near perfect conditions is best for that.

Then dot drills and varying position/rest afterward.

 

[pmclaine]

And that wasn't intended as was not where it was grouping. Sighted dead on for another ammo.

I was being facetious.

Its a nice group but some of the .22 guys on here do some amazing stuff with their little bore guns.

Certainly your group is practical but some of these Vudoo guys enter the realms of miracle.

 

[Alabusa]

I was being facetious.

Its a nice group but some of the .22 guys on here do some amazing stuff with their little bore guns.

Certainly your group is practical but some of these Vudoo guys enter the realms of miracle.

I should hope so. They have more in the rifle than I do for the entire rig. I thought it was pretty good for a $250 rifle. It shouldn't compare to $1500+ rifles or the ones that have the high end guns are getting ripped.

Anyway, I am way out of my league here so I will mosey along.

 

[pmclaine]

I should hope so. They have more in the rifle than I do for the entire rig. I thought it was pretty good for a $250 rifle. It shouldn't compare to $1500+ rifles or the ones that have the high end guns are getting ripped.

Anyway, I am way out of my league here so I will mosey along.

Its a league thats easy to get in to. Dont leave that fast.

but..........hold on to your wallet.

 

[Quarter Horse]

I should hope so. They have more in the rifle than I do for the entire rig. I thought it was pretty good for a $250 rifle. It shouldn't compare to $1500+ rifles or the ones that have the high end guns are getting ripped.

Anyway, I am way out of my league here so I will mosey along.

Most of the people on this forum are here to learn. Along with the guys on the Vintage Sniper Rifle forum they are the most welcoming people on SH. There are threads here that extend back years and provide info. of value. Your target is actually pretty impressive. Many of the people here are very discerning and are focused on what is the very best of everything from ammo to rifles to scopes. To some degree that is the real intent of this place.

If that isn't of interest to you than by all means move on. If it is of interest to you than don't be a dick. Read, learn, post and help us all out.

 

[jbell]

I should hope so. They have more in the rifle than I do for the entire rig. I thought it was pretty good for a $250 rifle. It shouldn't compare to $1500+ rifles or the ones that have the high end guns are getting ripped.

Anyway, I am way out of my league here so I will mosey along.

I agree, that is a very impressive group for 50 rounds, never mind the cost of the rifle used to shoot it. Would you mind measuring it for a point of reference, it is a little hard to know the actual group size from a picture. 100 yards outside is very unforgiving with a 22lr. . You mentioned that you pulled 2 rounds, were they called out when the shot broke and impacted where you call them (at 12 & 3 o'clock of POI)? If so that is an impressive group and you now know where you need to work, especially if you know why you pulled the 2 shots. But if the rounds "unexpectedly" impacted out of the group and you are chalking it up to "well I must have pulled two" then you are doing 2 things wrong:
1 - you are selling yourself short because anyone who can hold what looks to be sub MOA for that many rounds should know exactly where every shot broke
2 - you may be introducing some doubt into your subconscious which can really hurt your shooting, not saying this is the case just it is a possibility

either way nice shooting

 

[Alabusa]

I agree, that is a very impressive group for 50 rounds, never mind the cost of the rifle used to shoot it. Would you mind measuring it for a point of reference, it is a little hard to know the actual group size from a picture. 100 yards outside is very unforgiving with a 22lr. . You mentioned that you pulled 2 rounds, were they called out when the shot broke and impacted where you call them (at 12 & 3 o'clock of POI)? If so that is an impressive group and you now know where you need to work, especially if you know why you pulled the 2 shots. But if the rounds "unexpectedly" impacted out of the group and you are chalking it up to "well I must have pulled two" then you are doing 2 things wrong:
1 - you are selling yourself short because anyone who can hold what looks to be sub MOA for that many rounds should know exactly where every shot broke
2 - you may be introducing some doubt into your subconscious which can really hurt your shooting, not saying this is the case just it is a possibility

either way nice shooting

The target was thrown in trash since I was shooting at my house. Each of the squares is 1 inch.
The shot at 3 0clock was a bad pull. The 2 shots that are high, one in and one beside bullseye, are fliers or that is what I called them ss they felt like good shots.

Most of the people on this forum are here to learn. Along with the guys on the Vintage Sniper Rifle forum they are the most welcoming people on SH. There are threads here that extend back years and provide info. of value. Your target is actually pretty impressive. Many of the people here are very discerning and are focused on what is the very best of everything from ammo to rifles to scopes. To some degree that is the real intent of this place.

If that isn't of interest to you than by all means move on. If it is of interest to you than don't be a dick. Read, learn, post and help us all out.

Not trying to be a dick. I actually think my skillset is not up to par with 98%+ of users here. I am just trying to do the best i can with what i have. I wish I could afford a $2000+ rifle and $2000+ scope but i can't.

I am here to learn anything and everything I can.

 

[RTH1800]

Stick around. Lot of good folks here trying to learn and share.

 

[pmclaine]

Not trying to be a dick. I actually think my skillset is not up to par with 98%+ of users here. I am just trying to do the best i can with what i have. I wish I could afford a $2000+ rifle and $2000+ scope but i can't.

I am here to learn anything and everything I can.

Its not the bow.......its the Indian and how much desire does he have to do the best he can.

The nice thing about shooting is its never played alone.

Its always you against you.

 

[phidelt208]

I'm one of them, It's amazing to see the difference 3" vs 7" groups even with a nice rifle and scope.

 

[Rolltide]

The best thing about shooting rimfires, is that you can spend the time to learn without breaking the bank, and do it at ranges that are easier to find. 50 yard and 100 yard ranges seem to be everywhere and it's not hard to find ranges out to at least 300 yards. Shooting rimfire has helped my wind reading more than any other shooting I've done and it will expose a lack of shooting fundamentals as well.

 

[pmclaine]

Maybe Ill have to break out a .22 this weekend.

@Alabusa has given a great challenge.

Break out a rifle and 100 rounds of ammo pick your point of aim and lets see the variety of results with a variety of rifles.

Will the 10/22 blow away the guy with the vudoo because you cant buy skill?

Make a 100 shot group post and than provide the following particulars with a photo of rifle and target.

Use 50 yards as the range to make it easy/less wind interference over different areas.

Rifle -

Ammo -

Position -

Support Used (Bipod/Bag/Offhand) -

Weather factors -

Anything else pertinent.

 

[Alabusa]

Maybe Ill have to break out a .22 this weekend.

@Alabusa has given a great challenge.

Break out a rifle and 100 rounds of ammo pick your point of aim and lets see the variety of results with a variety of rifles.

Will the 10/22 blow away the guy with the vudoo because you cant buy skill?

Make a 100 shot group post and than provide the following particulars with a photo of rifle and target.

Use 50 yards as the range to make it easy/less wind interference over different areas.

Rifle -

Ammo -

Position -

Support Used (Bipod/Bag/Offhand) -

Weather factors -

Anything else pertinent.

Tomorrow, I will do the one dot, one shot drill and post my results to see how I stack up with what has been shown here.

Been raining and sleeping, I have not had the chance to shoot. My trigger finger is itching.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Tomorrow, I will do the one dot, one shot drill and post my results to see how I stack up with what has been shown here.

Been raining and sleeping, I have not had the chance to shoot. My trigger finger is itching.

Glad you decided to stay but know you're being a pain. I have trouble getting through the thirty of a 6X5 without throwing a couple (or more).

 

[D_TROS]

...


Not trying to be a dick. I actually think my skillset is not up to par with 98%+ of users here....

....

I would venture 98% of the users here don't even shoot, let alone tell people about it. SO don't sweat it. And I guarantee everyone here, even the best shooters, started with worse.

Nice shooting. I have a FV-SR and it shoots about that good. Post some pics of your kid. We like pics here!
If you want a box of good ammo, PM me your address ill mail you a box or 2. Would be interested to see if you like it or if its worth it in a budget rifle.


Regards,
DT

 

[jbell]

I am here to learn anything and everything I can.

Aren't we all... Welcome to the Rimfire section, I think you will find there are some great people who hang around in this section. I look forward to more from you. Come join us in the 6X5 thread or if you get a good idea for a "challenge" start another one up, the more the better!

 

[TheGerman]

You keep missing the center bullseye.

 

[Alabusa]

You only hit the center once

Good point.
If you are truly attempting precision shooting, groups aren't the way to go.
One dot-one shot targets are my preference when at the range.

Every shot requires a change in body position and rifle alignment.
Learn more, faster, improvement is easy to track.

You are correct, this is much harder. I am barely shooting 1 moa and am all over the place. Best 2 shots out of 58 was a .040. The worst was 1.15. Average was .45 and .533.

 

[Alabusa]

2nd target, both were shot at 50 yards

 

[Alabusa]

Another 49 dots, 49 shots
.08 low to .85 high with an average of .339

This is a tough drill. I am glad someone here told me about it.

 

[justin amateur]

I see wind and ammo quality causes you
as much grief as it does me.
Figure out a way to keep an eye on wind
through flags or vegetation movement
and think about purchasing a ballistic chronograph
to determine if it was you or MV changes.

I see you hand draw targets.
If you have a printer, here's a link
to a folder with an assortment of PDFs to download and print.
Includes an assortment of dot targets.

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B9bpeeP7WFgFOHZFTzFZUi1VZG8

 

[jbell]

I see wind and ammo quality causes you
as much grief as it does me.
Figure out a way to keep an eye on wind
through flags or vegetation movement
and think about purchasing a ballistic chronograph
to determine if it was you or MV changes.

So true, it is something none of us can escape. That is what makes this game of rimfire so fun / hard / frustrating...

 

[Alabusa]

I see wind and ammo quality causes you
as much grief as it does me.
Figure out a way to keep an eye on wind
through flags or vegetation movement
and think about purchasing a ballistic chronograph
to determine if it was you or MV changes.

I see you hand draw targets.
If you have a printer, here's a link
to a folder with an assortment of PDFs to download and print.
Includes an assortment of dot targets.

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B9bpeeP7WFgFOHZFTzFZUi1VZG8

Yes Sir, it is amazing how little wind it takes to move a slow 22 bullet. I have a hard time with $15-$20 per 50 for ammo. If I had a $3000-$4000+ rig, shot comps as much as possible, I could see and understand it. I may buy a box just to see how much it helps but it will be an every now and then kind of thing.

If you shoot enough, pay close enough attention, you can hear the odd round that is faster or slower. It will be a sharper crack or one that is muted a bit. I can just about call the oddballs by sound alone but I shoot 100 rounds or more every day possible.
It may sound crazy but listen for it and you will see.

 

[justin amateur]

Not only can you hear the difference in the muzzle report
but the vibrations that transfer from the stock
to my cheekbone are of a different pitch
and can be felt by the inner ear.
It's the reason I purchased a chronograph
so as to be able to verify the audible differences
with actual measurements to confirm.

If you choose to shoot the less expensive ammo,
use it at 25 yards and the cartridge defects
will have minimal affects on results.
At extended range time of flight, gravity and aerodynamics
amplify the defects causing greater trajectory dispersion.

 

[pmclaine]

The "problem" these days is that expectations are starting to prevent the total enjoyment of shooting.

.22 cal rifles are what we are supposed to experience and develop a love for "just shooting".

As a kid if you consistently wailed a soup can at 50 yards you were an all star. It was a perfectly achievable goal and because you succeeded you continued in the sport.

Now with the internet and the high volume of cherry picked never to be repeated one hole groups prevalent to view anything less than 100 of 100 in the X ring is failure.

As a teenager with my Tasco 10-22 there wasnt a bird that was safe within 100 yards.

I probably shot better than because my targets were at varied unknown distances shot from different positions at varied angles of fire with targets that might move at any instant.

It was practical shooting as opposed to me now sitting down at a bench with static cookie cutter targets.

Now anything that isnt in the middle of the target causes disappointment.

We should shoot with young kids more and return to the enjoyment of making a big old milk jug bounce.

Brought an AR today to try to sight in a new to me ACOG TA33. Supposed to do some family dinner thing tomorrow night but if I can I want to break out either than Win 75T or Springfield M2 and shoot some of my cheap CMP Remington surplus ammo.

What do you want to see @Alabusa - Iron sights or a scoped rifle? Single group or a dot drill? Cant do dots with the iron sighted gun, they are too small. Perhaps the 10-22 with iron sights?

 

[MarkCZ]

Yes Sir, it is amazing how little wind it takes to move a slow 22 bullet. I have a hard time with $15-$20 per 50 for ammo. If I had a $3000-$4000+ rig, shot comps as much as possible, I could see and understand it. I may buy a box just to see how much it helps but it will be an every now and then kind of thing.

If you shoot enough, pay close enough attention, you can hear the odd round that is faster or slower. It will be a sharper crack or one that is muted a bit. I can just about call the oddballs by sound alone but I shoot 100 rounds or more every day possible.
It may sound crazy but listen for it and you will see.

You don't have to start with $20 ammo. Try some Eley target, Wolf MT, SK Std+ for less then $6, the next step up would be Eley Club, Wolf ME, and SK Match for less than $8. A very good mid price is Lapua CenterX $10 to $11.

Mark