Advanced Marksmanship 1000 yard load question

[gunsnjeeps]

I'm looking for a sanity check on an idea and load. 5.56 at 1000 yards, most folks call it marginal but this is the plan this month. As I mentioned earlier today I'm going to shoot the 1000 after our National Match Course. I plan on loading Berger 80 VLD's over Varget. My regular load is a 77 SMK and 24 gr Varget in a CCI 400 primed WCC case. I haven't had problems with the primer but plan on using a Wolf Magnum for the 1000 yard load and trying both 24 and 24.5 gr loads.

As a sanity check, has anyone tried this load combination? I figure if this load doesn't work for 1000 yards I'll use the rest of the Bergers for 600 yard loads.

PS. Early apology if you read this in another thread. Some people only read 1 or 2 threads.

 

[Graham]

Re: 1000 yard load question

Nobody can tell you what load will work best in your rifle, especially without more information about the barrel and chamber.

If you want a 1000-yard load that works well in any AR, try 80SMK's with 24.5 of RE15.
You will need a straight-8 or better twist.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: 1000 yard load question

Graham, this post is more helpful. I wish I had read it first. I have a Rock River Arms National Match A2 with a Wylde chamber and 1 in 7 twist. I understand that my rifle will perform differnt than somebody elses even two rifles made at the same time. I am asking more for the sanity check on the load than an expectation of performance.

I've considered 80 rain match kings but I have had more recommendations for the Bergers. I may do a comparrison with RE15. I have used it for .30 but not .223.
Thanks.

 

[Graham]

Re: 1000 yard load question

You might find that you have to play around with seating depth to get the Bergers to shoot their best: Into the lands vs. way off the lands.

Of course both seating depths will probably increase pressures, so you may be up to a grain off from what someone else tells you is a 'sane' load.

You can't short-cut the learning curve: Either use a known load, with a known bullet, and sacrifice a bit of performance, or be prepared to spend the time developing your own bullet/powder combination.

 

[JByrd]

Re: 1000 yard load question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking for a sanity check on an idea and load. 5.56 at 1000 yards, most folks call it marginal but this is the plan this month. As I mentioned earlier today I'm going to shoot the 1000 after our National Match Course. I plan on loading Berger 80 VLD's over Varget. My regular load is a 77 SMK and 24 gr Varget in a CCI 400 primed WCC case. I haven't had problems with the primer but plan on using a Wolf Magnum for the 1000 yard load and trying both 24 and 24.5 gr loads.

As a sanity check, has anyone tried this load combination? I figure if this load doesn't work for 1000 yards I'll use the rest of the Bergers for 600 yard loads.

also i know its obvious , but you never gonna get in lands @ mag length particularly with bergers

PS. Early apology if you read this in another thread. Some people only read 1 or 2 threads.
</div></div>

restricted to mag length? imhop ar15 def runnin outa gas at 1k plus its gettin blown all over the place. if wind will push my 300 win mag 190's 4 feet whatdya think its gonna do to that 223?? will def be a challenge if thats what your lookin for. just not much practicle application. again, my opinion

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: 1000 yard load question

I shoot my Service Rifle at 1000 yards. My load is 24.8 grains of RE-15 under an 80 grain Berger. These are stuffed into Winchester brass primed with WSR's. The brass is once fired, and from the same lot. It is massaged with necks trimmed, flash holes deburred, and primer pockets uniformed. Bullets are seated .010 off although Berger recommended .010 in. The key is consistent neck tension round to round for a low ES and SD, which is essential for success at 1000, as it better assures hits at adjusted elevation where the target bullseye is its widest. Holding to that elevation helps to prevent lost points to wind when you do not properly counter for wind effects. BTW, my average muzzle velocity is 2800 fps which keeps bullets stable to 1000.

I'd rather shoot an iron sight AR based Service Rifle at 1000 yards rather than anything else. My average score is only 93 percent so far, 5 points below my overall LR average; but, the challenge of it all makes it much more compelling.

Also, holding to exacting elevation with the Service Rifle's post front sight requires extraordinary picture memory, and even with such memory the target may still be so vague as to not permit exploitation of the picture memory asset. In that scenario, I may use a frame hold or some sort of hold on the number board. My point here is even though you may not see much of a target do not let that distract or defeat you as there's often more than just one way to skin a cat.

Another thing, shoot during the prevailing wind, you do not have the time to be making massive sight adjustments and you cannot accurately favor, so adjust windage initially to what's prevailing; and, if possible, hold up until prevailing wind comes back. You can read the wind at mid range where it has its greatest effect by setting your spotting scope focus a 1/4 turn counter clockwise from target focus.

Lastly, remember since sight misalignment creates angular error increasing with distance, be sure to align your sights before adjusting NPA to the hold you're seeking. And, of course, call your shots and plot strikes; and, use your score book's MOA grid to help you do shooter/target analysis, after all, you don't want to be chasing your shots from having adjusted for non existent wind.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: 1000 yard load question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: procovert45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking for a sanity check on an idea and load. 5.56 at 1000 yards, most folks call it marginal but this is the plan this month. As I mentioned earlier today I'm going to shoot the 1000 after our National Match Course. I plan on loading Berger 80 VLD's over Varget. My regular load is a 77 SMK and 24 gr Varget in a CCI 400 primed WCC case. I haven't had problems with the primer but plan on using a Wolf Magnum for the 1000 yard load and trying both 24 and 24.5 gr loads.



As a sanity check, has anyone tried this load combination? I figure if this load doesn't work for 1000 yards I'll use the rest of the Bergers for 600 yard loads.

also i know its obvious , but you never gonna get in lands @ mag length particularly with bergers

PS. Early apology if you read this in another thread. Some people only read 1 or 2 threads.
</div></div>

restricted to mag length? imhop ar15 def runnin outa gas at 1k plus its gettin blown all over the place. if wind will push my 300 win mag 190's 4 feet whatdya think its gonna do to that 223?? will def be a challenge if thats what your lookin for. just not much practicle application. again, my opinion</div></div>

Cartridges do not need to be mag tolerant in NRA LR as all firing is from single loading. Also, there's plenty of practical application here. Service Rifle at 1000 exposes shooter shortcomings which are masked in other NRA LR divisions. Working to correct errors with the Service Rifle serves to improve shooting in other divisions.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: 1000 yard load question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't short-cut the learning curve: Either use a known load, with a known bullet, and sacrifice a bit of performance, or be prepared to spend the time developing your own bullet/powder combination. </div></div>

I agree. It's not so much short cut as finding out what doesn't work. Some of the other advice has been use my 600 yard load and just swap out the bullet, that puts me at 24.0 Varget. One of the biggest problems is that I have nowhere to test loads. I have a 100 yard range to test on so even crap loads at 1000 can look good at 100.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: 1000 yard load question

I don't use the same load at 1000 that I use at 600, since at 600 I don't need the extra velocity required for the 1000 yard line. What I want from either however is a low ES, under 20 fps, and a low SD. If I can get a single digit SD and ES for LR I'm a real happy camper. Of course, understanding my load requires a chronograph. My advice to the OP is to get one if he's serious about LR with an AR and irons. I rely on the chrongraph, even more than on my observation of groups these days as unless I've got a low ES and SD, getting good results at LR is simply not possble no matter how good an SR group is possible.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: 1000 yard load question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot my Service Rifle at 1000 yards. My load is 24.8 grains of RE-15 under an 80 grain Berger. These are stuffed into Winchester brass primed with WSR's. The brass is once fired, and from the same lot. It is massaged with necks trimmed, flash holes deburred, and primer pockets uniformed. Bullets are seated .010 off although Berger recommended .010 in. The key is consistent neck tension round to round for a low ES and SD, which is essential for success at 1000, as it better assures hits at adjusted elevation where the target bullseye is its widest. Holding to that elevation helps to prevent lost points to wind when you do not properly counter for wind effects. BTW, my average muzzle velocity is 2800 fps which keeps bullets stable to 1000. </div></div>

Between your post and Grahams's I have a good idea on RE15. I hadn't planned on neck turning and was debating between once fired WCC (BHA loaded M262, no crimp) or buying a bag of Winchester new and cleaning up flash holes on either choice. @800 sounds like a reasonable velocity, I think I figured way to fast/hot when I was putting things together. Numbers are on my home computer. I figured I'd decide on frame or 6 o'clock hold at the match. What is your sight change from 600? I've been told turn the front sight down one turn and use 600 yard to start.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: 1000 yard load question

I turn down my front sight 4 full revs and my rear sight is set initally at my 600 yard zero. This gives me a bullet path 36 inches high off 100 yard zero, which will intersect with line of sight at 1000 yards.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: 1000 yard load question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: procovert45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">restricted to mag length? imhop ar15 def runnin outa gas at 1k plus its gettin blown all over the place. if wind will push my 300 win mag 190's 4 feet whatdya think its gonna do to that 223?? will def be a challenge if thats what your lookin for. just not much practicle application. again, my opinion </div></div>

Single loading not mag length, 77's are mag length but won't make it past 800. Not sure how they'd do past 600, never tried it. Yes, the wind can be a problem that's why I'm giving this a go. I'm not sure how much practical application a retired sailor with rifle has in this PC world, I'm just trying to keep a smile on my face.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: 1000 yard load question

Sterling, thanks for the sight info. I know someone would have given it to me on the line but it's better to have early. I have a chronograph. I was glad you put 2800 fps in your post it gives me a velocity to work with. The last time I ran my match load over my chrono, I was at a 35 fps spread. I'll be testing on the 18th.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: 1000 yard load question

If your intent is to use a 6 o'clock hold at 1000, make sure you're zeroing at 100 using a 6 o'clock hold too and shoot at a 4.4 inch bullseye, otherwise the 36 inch path at 100 will not produce the desired point of impact at 1000. This is essential or you'll be off paper, even using the correct math.