Rifle Scopes 10x riflescope poll...

[koshkin]

Alright folks, let's imagine that there is an optics manufacturer out there that can be convinced to make a truly modern fixed power 10x scope. If I get enough of a headcount here, I will approach a couple of manufacturers with this question.

Let's go with the following features:

- exposed elevation turret
- ZeroStop
- covered windage turret
- modern tree reticle (let's say I can sketch something reasonably inoffensive up for that)
- illuminated center dot
- 30mm or 34mm tube
- side focus
- price right at $1k

I did not see a way to add more than question to the poll, so we will have to do this long form, so to speak.

Here are the questions I would like to see answered. Treat them as multiple choice:

1) Will you buy it. Simple Yes or No.
2) If Yes, what objective diameter would you want? 42mm, 50mm, 56mm, N/A
3) Will you buy it if it is made in China? Yes or No
4) Will you buy it if it is made in the Phillipines? Yes or No
5) Will you buy it if it is made in Japan? Yes or No
6) Will you buy it if it is made in the US? Yes or No
7) Will you buy it if it is made in Europe? Yes or No
8) Are you considering US Optic BFX10? Yes or No
8a) If No, Would you consider it if they had JPVCR reticle available?


ILya

 

[PBWalsh]

Yes, if I had funds available and could justify it.

50mm
Japan/Europe/USA manufactuer
Almost considered the USO, but TO ME, I didn’t see enough to warrant it over an SWFA 10x HD with the zero stop kit. Heck I rock a SWFA 10x classic now and enjoy it.
While I’m wishing, say sub 20oz.
Reticles? Personal preference, but I can do without a Christmas tree style. I prefer a simple .2-.5 mil reticle, but I am not a high speed cool guy competitor.

 

[spife7980]

1) Will you buy it. No.
I might entertain it all right up until the "price right at $1k". I already cant stomach thinking about how they charge 600 for the swfa10xhd.

2) If Yes, what objective diameter would you want?50mm

3) Will you buy it if it is made in China? Yes if its cheaper and this applies to all the other yes below, otherwise no. But I dont care where its from if its good.

4) Will you buy it if it is made in the Phillipines? Yes

5) Will you buy it if it is made in Japan? Yes

6) Will you buy it if it is made in the US? Yes

7) Will you buy it if it is made in Europe? Yes

8) Are you considering US Optic BFX10? No

8a) If No, Would you consider it if they had JPVCR reticle available? No, way to much for a fixed power scope.

 

[notorious]

Always wanted one. I like the simplicity. The SWFA HD will probably be the choice, but it's far from a priority at this point.

 

[AIKNOWU]

10x? No way.
15x? Absolutely. A nice 15x that has an awesome field of view is the perfect PRS mama jama, in my opinion. I shoot on 12-14x exclusively with my current scopes. The ~26mil FOV (edge to edge, or 13mil from crosshair to bottom) is what I like. If I could get that same FOV at higher mag through a fixed scope, I'd go for it in a heartbeat. Better optics, better durability, no fuss. I'd buy two of them tomorrow. This is assuming it has a well designed modern tree reticle, great optical performance, reliable 10mil turrets, and. . . that's about it.

Now to your questions:

1) Will you buy it. NO. See above.
2) If Yes, what objective diameter would you want? 50ish. Want big FOV but not a high scope mount.
3) Will you buy it if it is made in China? No
4) Will you buy it if it is made in the Phillipines? No
5) Will you buy it if it is made in Japan? Yes
6) Will you buy it if it is made in the US? Yes
7) Will you buy it if it is made in Europe? Yes
8) Are you considering US Optic BFX10? No
8a) If No, Would you consider it if they had JPVCR reticle available? No

Don't care about zero stop, don't want covered windage, don't care about illumination, would prefer a 30mm tube.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I've had much the same thoughts on a fixed 10x. I think the idea has merit for training rifles, gas guns, etc. Cram in the best glass you can, keep tracking reliable, and cut the price via fixed magnification.

 

[lennyo3034]

1) Will you buy it. Yes
2) If Yes, what objective diameter would you want? 50mm
3) Will you buy it if it is made in China? Not for $1000
4) Will you buy it if it is made in the Phillipines? Not for $1000
5) Will you buy it if it is made in Japan? Yes
6) Will you buy it if it is made in the US? Yes
7) Will you buy it if it is made in Europe? Yes
8) Are you considering US Optic BFX10? No because the ST-10 I had got its shit kicked optically by the Bushy LRHS.

 

[want2ride]

There is no way I am buying a fixed riflescope over $500. It would be nice to have a couple more options than what my SWFA has, but regardless there is no way I am buying a fixed 10x or 6x (possible next purchase) over $500, much less $1000

 

[wade2big]

30 mm tube and illuminated.

Tree reticle or not doesn't matter to me

.2 mil hashes would make the scope a Do Not Buy for me. The reticle is too small at 10x to make sense of the crammed subtensions. It would be a mistake.

1) Would you buy it? No. not at $1000
2) Which objective diameter? 50mm objective
3) Will you buy it if it is made in China? Not even at $500
4) Will you buy it if it is made in the Phillipines? Not even at $500
5) Will you buy it if it is made in Japan? Yes at $750
6) Will you buy it if it is made in the US? Yes at $750
7) Will you buy it if it is made in Europe? Yes at $750
8) Are you considering US Optic BFX10? No, too costly for what it is.
8a) If No, Would you consider it if they had JPVCR reticle available? NO as .2 hashes would be too tight on a 10x, what a mess.

In all reality, if the SWFA 10x42HD was illuminated I would buy it at its current price over anything that you proposed here. I like the reticle especially at this low of power. The diamonds instead of hashes make it easier and quicker to pick up.

 

[dustingaunder]

Only if it’s FFP.

 

[winniethepooh]

30mm tube, zero stop, locked windage, ill center dot, side focus are all I need.

1) Will you buy it. Yes
2) If Yes, what objective diameter would you want? 50mm
3) Will you buy it if it is made in China? No (same reason I don’t support amazon)
4) Will you buy it if it is made in the Phillipines? Yes
5) Will you buy it if it is made in Japan? Yes
6) Will you buy it if it is made in the US? Yes
7) Will you buy it if it is made in Europe? Yes
8) Are you considering US Optic BFX10? No
8a) If No, Would you consider it if they had JPVCR reticle available? Maybe

 

[1moaoff]

If it was a cleaner version of the swfa or the old 10x mark 4 I would have very high interest.
LARGE Fov
Reticle needs to be a simplified tree, .2 or maybe .250 mil hash with .5 mil
Illuminated dot sure
Rugged
Great glass
Simple repeatable turrets with zero stop

 

[1moaoff]

I forgot...
It also must have side parallax

 

[Healy]

Yes made in Japan, USA or Europe 30mm tube 50/56mm objective with zero stop and illumination

 

[Rob01]

Why would I want a $1000 10x scope when I can get a good variable for the same price or less? 10x scopes have their nostalgia from the military but today there is no reason for a fixed 10x. Some companies make them now so I wouldn't see a reason to try and take the market with an antiquated optic style.

 

[hafejd30]

I have a fixed 16x swfa. Got for $280 brand new with caps and rings. Works great. For under $1000 you can buy a Burris XTRII, Athlon Ares ETR, Used Cronus BTR etc. For a bit more get into a used Razor or NXS. But I couldn’t see myself paying $1000 for fixed 10X when for the same $ there’s already so many good scopes available. Would have to be something really special.

 

[oneforall]

I think if one to keep price at$600 or so, it will be a hit.
1) Will you buy it. Simple Yes or No. yes at $600, no at 1k
2) If Yes, what objective diameter would you want? 42mm, 50mm, 56mm, N/A 50mm
3) Will you buy it if it is made in China? Yes or No-yes
4) Will you buy it if it is made in the Phillipines? Yes or No- yes
5) Will you buy it if it is made in Japan? Yes or No-yes
6) Will you buy it if it is made in the US? Yes or No-yes
7) Will you buy it if it is made in Europe? Yes or No-yes
8) Are you considering US Optic BFX10? Yes or No-no
8a) If No, Would you consider it if they had JPVCR reticle available? no, too pricey

 

[koshkin]

The poll is going to run for a week. I will occasionally bring it up, but it looks like about one third of the 44 people who voted said they would buy it.

I started this poll as a way to explore the concept that Bender proposed here:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/burris-please-make-a-fixed-10x.6960740/

This comes up every once in a while, but my personal opinion is that this kind of scope will not sell in the current market in sufficient numbers to justify development cost.

Now, if development costs were small, there may be a market there, but that means only a company that already has a proven 10x design can potentially get away with it.

That pretty much leaves SWFA.

US Optics and S&B have very expensive 10x scopes that are very boutique.

Hawke, Burris and Sightron tried to make 10x scopes in the $400-$1000 range, but all are discontinued. Bushnell still has their 10x40 without parallax adjustment, but that was a serviceable scope when under $200. For close to $300, it competes too closely with SWFA that has parallax adjustment.

Even Kaps has, I think, finally discontinued their tactical 8x56, 10x50 and 10x56 scopes which, I thought, were very good, although OpticsTrade still lists them. If you really want something in this range, you may want to inquire if they can still be purchased. Kaps makes good stuff, but lack of parallax adjustment has always been a turn off.

Kaps Tactical 8x56 sniper

Kaps Tactical 8x56 riflescopes are basically very similar to Kaps Klassik 8x56, with the exception of tactical turrets for reticle adjustment. The turrets have a very good feel to them with sound effects at settings adjustment and they can also be used while wearing gloves.

www.optics-trade.eu

Kaps Tactical 10x56 sniper

Kaps Tactical 10x56 riflescopes are basically very similar to Kaps Klassik 8x56, with the exception of tactical turrets for reticle adjustment and higher magnification. The turrets have a very good feel to them with sound effects at settings adjustment and they can also be used while wearing...

www.optics-trade.eu

Kaps Tactical 10x50 sniper

Kaps Tactical 10x50 riflescopes are a special implementation of riflescopes for those who swear on proven solutions and need tactical turrets for reticle adjustment. The turrets have a very good feel to them with sound effects at settings adjustment and they can also be used while wearing gloves.

www.optics-trade.eu

Now, onto what I personally would be interested in.

I like the simplicity of fixed power scopes and for a while I used SWFA 10x42HD with offset red dot on an accurate AR with surprising comfort.

That having been said, if I were to develop the next generation fixed power scopes, I would start with the Classic 10x42 with side focus, cover the windage turret, add zero stop to the elevation turret and add a simplified tree reticle. I do not know if I would want to be messing with reticle illumination. If it does not add too much to the cost, maybe, but I would be inclined to make it a single illuminated dot in the center.

I think a scope like that for $500 with the track record of SWFA Classic scopes behind it could do exceedingly well. Has I been starting from scratch, I would lean toward a 10x50, but since starting from scratch is not financially feasible, SWFA Classic is the best chassis to work with.

Another scope that I would really like to see, but I know I won't would be a fixed power design based on SWFA's 2.5-10x32 Ultralight. I have two of these and they absolutely rock, given that they weigh less than 10 ounces.

A 6x32 in the same body would likely weigh less than 9 ounces and make a killing.

ILya

 

[Wyfox]

I'm currently in the market for one, been looking at the S&B and USO. I really wish I could get at least the PF4 in the S&B, it would be a no brainer. Weight is my biggest seller for the S&B. Spend all this money cutting ounces with carbon and titanium and there isnt shit for a bombproof lightweight long range optic under 20 ounces. The S&B Polar T96 are pretty close at 22-25oz but wish they were 30mm with a bigger elevation turret from the PMII line.

 

[koshkin]

I'm currently in the market for one, been looking at the S&B and USO. I really wish I could get at least the PF4 in the S&B, it would be a no brainer. Weight is my biggest seller for the S&B. Spend all this money cutting ounces with carbon and titanium and there isnt shit for a bombproof lightweight long range optic under 20 ounces. The S&B Polar T96 are pretty close at 22-25oz but wish they were 30mm with a bigger elevation turret from the PMII line.

March is probably the lightest quality variable and they are very durable. They are a little finicky on high mag with parallax, but if you you plan to mostly be running it on lower powers for hunting, you should not have any issues.

I am revisiting March 3-24x52 again and for a general purpose design, it is very good. It is quite easy to use up to about 15x, which works fine for me. I only go above that if I am in a very steady and comfortable shooting position and even then mostly to read mirage.

ILya

 

[Wyfox]

March has really never been on my radar, I'll give them a look.

 

[koshkin]

March has really never been on my radar, I'll give them a look.

The 3-24x52 is probably going to end up on my hunting rifle since I like to use to for logn range practice as well and March does everything well in a pinch.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

March has really never been on my radar, I'll give them a look.

I went and looked. 3-24x52 March is 24.5 ounces.

Ilya

 

[MK20]

For a fixed 10x, no

That 2.5-10x32 you mentioned, I would buy and I think that tons of folks would as well. The lightweight SPR market is really underserved unless you want to spend way too much money.

 

[koshkin]

For a fixed 10x, no

That 2.5-10x32 you mentioned, I would buy and I think that tons of folks would as well. The lightweight SPR market is really underserved unless you want to spend way too much money.

The 2.5-10x32 is already out with Plex and BDC reticles. I have both and like then a lot, but I am trying to convince them to put a MilQuad in there as well.

Remarkably enough, it even tracks well while weighing less than 10 ounces.

Ilya

 

[Supersubes]

Hard no for me. My thoughts match Rob01’s exactly.

I just built a light weight general purpose rifle, and it does seem like there is a lack of suitable scopes. I like the NF 2.5-10x42 but it’s $2k, which is laughable imo. If it were sub 1k, I’d probably own several of them.

 

[Luvman]

Didn’t vote. Im on the fence pending final specs.

Here’s how I would spec a fixed 10x for a .22 trainer.

Great glass with FOV to match
Has to track
Loads of travel
10y parallax
Zero stop

 

[koshkin]

Hard no for me. My thoughts match Rob01’s exactly.

I just built a light weight general purpose rifle, and it does seem like there is a lack of suitable scopes. I like the NF 2.5-10x42 but it’s $2k, which is laughable imo. If it were sub 1k, I’d probably own several of them.

If you are going light, March, Leupold Mark 5 and TT315M are more or less it on the high end.

Around $1k, PST Gen 2 3-15x44 and Burris XTR II 2-10X42 are worth a look.

ILya

 

[D_TROS]

Really don't see the need for a fixed 10 unless its dirt cheap. Hard pass here. as in ZERO interest.

As mentioned unless it fills a niche like super lightweight or super cheap or something it just wont sell.

Would love a 2-10 xtr3 that weighs under 18 ozs tho....

GL
DT

 

[patriot07]

I probably wouldn't spend $1k on a fixed 10x, even with good HD glass. Too much considering the other variable power options available in the same price range.

IMHO, the reason the SWFA 10x and 12x sell so well is that most everything else in their price range can't be trusted to track reliably. Once you get past the price point where that's not true, most folks wouldn't be willing to deal with a lack of variable zoom.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I'd consider paying a bit more for SWFA's 3-15 if it came with a real zero stop, lower profile elevation turret and low profile and covered windage turret with illumination... but not anywhere near a grand.

There are to many good scopes that are almost what I want in the ~800 range.

 

[Healy]

That 3-15 pops up several times a year for around $500. I don’t know of any other scope I would trust as much for $500

 

[ForgeValley]

The 3-24x52 is probably going to end up on my hunting rifle since I like to use to for logn range practice as well and March does everything well in a pinch.

ILya

Just bought one a few weeks ago. Love it so far, sits on my precision AR at the moment.

 

[koshkin]

I probably wouldn't spend $1k on a fixed 10x, even with good HD glass. Too much considering the other variable power options available in the same price range.

IMHO, the reason the SWFA 10x and 12x sell so well is that most everything else in their price range can't be trusted to track reliably. Once you get past the price point where that's not true, most folks wouldn't be willing to deal with a lack of variable zoom.

I think you are spot on, but I will add that current production SWFA Classic is quite good optically and very consistent optically. There are similarly priced scopes that appear to be better during the day, but they fall behind in low light.

ILya

 

[patriot07]

I think you are spot on, but I will add that current production SWFA Classic is quite good optically and very consistent optically. There are similarly priced scopes that appear to be better during the day, but they fall behind in low light.

ILya

Very fair point. I had the 16x for a long time, but after playing with all of them, I think the 12x is my favorite all-around. 10x with side focus is very nice too. They are real gems mechanically and optically in the sub-$500 market.

 

[fdkay]

I really think that 500 bucks would be doable for a very good, fixed 10X (or 12x).
I really think the key would be to make it resemble military kit, whether the B&L or Unertl as folks wanting to build an"inspired by" rifle would likely snap it up.

I'm okay with the Philippine made scopes, would rather have a Japanese made scope.
When you consider the Weaver 3-10 was typically sold for less than 300, i think you can easily come in around 500.
Sightron still catalogs the 10x42. They don't sell many because they can't get off the mil/moa thing.
If they updated it, they might be able to generate some sales.

 

[Lowlight]

I want to see a FIXED FOURTEEN

I like the flow of that number... as others have said, we have moved beyond 10x and with most competition guys, between 12-18x is pretty standard to use.

A good low cost 14x would bridge a lot of gaps, and give you a unique marketing strategy if you saw a need for a fixed power.

 

[plidenbrock]

1) Will you buy it. Simple Yes or No. YES
2) If Yes, what objective diameter would you want? 42mm, 50mm, 56mm, N/A 50mm preferred
3) Will you buy it if it is made in China? No
4) Will you buy it if it is made in the Phillipines? No
5) Will you buy it if it is made in Japan? No
6) Will you buy it if it is made in the US? Yes
7) Will you buy it if it is made in Europe? Yes
8) Are you considering US Optic BFX10? No
8a) If No, Would you consider it if they had JPVCR reticle available? No

--------------

In addition, I'd be in favor of:

-10m parallax
-extreme temperature resistance
-nice elevation travel
-30 or 34mm tube
-zero stop
-decent field of view

Then I'm game for $1k.

Essentially, I'd be willing to pay for a very well-made SWFA SS10x.

They used to be great but something seems wrong over the last couple years. I would happily pay $1k for an SS10x42-esque scope if it actually worked reliably. I've gone to a mile with a straight 10x and good viewing optics. I just have lost faith in USO and SWFA.

Of course that's strictly personal opinion.

 

[D_TROS]

I want to see a FIXED FOURTEEN

I like the flow of that number... as others have said, we have moved beyond 10x and with most competition guys, between 12-18x is pretty standard to use.

A good low cost 14x would bridge a lot of gaps, and give you a unique marketing strategy if you saw a need for a fixed power.

I hate agreeing with the man, but a 14x with best in class FOV and other features mentioned above would be quite useful...around 5-6 hundo


Regards
DT

 

[drum13]

Probably would be unpopular with the PRS/Competition crowd but definitely see a niche for it with other many shooters.

Features:

- exposed elevation turret - YES
- ZeroStop - YES
- covered windage turret - YES
- modern tree reticle (let's say I can sketch something reasonably inoffensive up for that) - MSR reticle in a fixed power scope (with numbered elevation markings) would be killer. Don't think a PRS style reticle is appropriate for this concept.
- illuminated center dot - YES
- 30mm or 34mm tube - 30mm
- side focus - NO. Ex: SWFA rear focus fixed powered scopes are just fine and easier to manipulate.
- price right at $1k - Wouldn't spend $1K... unless it was as rugged and reliable as the Leupold M3A, S&B 10x42, USO MST-100 or Unertl 10x.

Here are the questions I would like to see answered. Treat them as multiple choice:

1) Will you buy it. Simple Yes
2) If Yes, what objective diameter would you want? 40mm-44mm
3) Will you buy it if it is made in China? Yes or NO
4) Will you buy it if it is made in the Philippines? NO
5) Will you buy it if it is made in Japan? NO
6) Will you buy it if it is made in the US? YES
7) Will you buy it if it is made in Europe? NO
8) Are you considering US Optic BFX10? YES
8a) If No, Would you consider it if they had JPVCR reticle available? NO

 

[chevy_man]

I really think that 500 bucks would be doable for a very good, fixed 10X (or 12x).

Sightron still catalogs the 10x42. They don't sell many because they can't get off the mil/moa thing.
If they updated it, they might be able to generate some sales.

I have a sightron mil/moa 3-12 that's been awesome for the last 20 years. Only because I never, ever, have to dial it on a hunting rifle.

Sightron would sell like crazy if they had figured out to offer mil adjustments 20 years ago when they were one of few that even had a mil reticle.

They do have great glass for the money, and I'd buy another straight power from them since my x6 is also going on 20 years and never a problem.




The one thing that's becoming a deal breaker for me is capped windage. After having a Mark 5, I don't know how I was living without it, and it's not like they can't figure out how to cap a turret. Nobody I know dials wind.

 

[Mute]

These days, bottom line no to first question. I wouldn't buy so no sense in the remaining questions. Even at $1k, I no longer see a reason to pick a fixed mag over a variable.

 

[lennyo3034]

The LRHS and LRTS 3-12x44 can be had at 700-800. Has better glass than the SWFA10HD and USO ST-10. And has all the features listed above. You’d have to get significantly better glass to justify paying 1000 for a fixed 10 vs 700 for a 3-12.

 

[koshkin]

I want to see a FIXED FOURTEEN

I like the flow of that number... as others have said, we have moved beyond 10x and with most competition guys, between 12-18x is pretty standard to use.

A good low cost 14x would bridge a lot of gaps, and give you a unique marketing strategy if you saw a need for a fixed power.

14x is an interesting idea. I do most of my distance shooting right around that magnification. That is one of the reasons I like TT315M so much. I seldom shoot at higher mags.

One advantage of a a modern fixed power design is that it could be made comparatively short without sacrificing depth of field, since the erector system is simpler. If eye relief can be kept in the 3.5" range, you can get good FOV with a reasonable sized eyepiece.

What do you think would be a reasonable price for a good quality 14x52 fixed power scope with the features I mentioned above?

ILya

 

[Lowlight]

Price-wise I don't have a starting point, but I am sure anything around $600 would sell since most decent variable powers start around $800 and only go up from there. Sure there are few sub-$800 scopes I would tell people to consider, but for me, $800 is your bottom floor in this space.

But honestly, I have not paid attention to where the numbers are falling.

 

[koshkin]

Price-wise I don't have a starting point, but I am sure anything around $600 would sell since most decent variable powers start around $800 and only go up from there. Sure there are few sub-$800 scopes I would tell people to consider, but for me, $800 is your bottom floor in this space.

But honestly, I have not paid attention to where the numbers are falling.

$600 is probably reasonable from a selling price standpoint, although honestly there may be some headroom to go up a bit if the image quality is sufficiently good.

There really aren't any truly modern fixed power scopes because everyone wants zoom, so they are a hard sell.

I have been thinking about that for a while and I wonder if there is a good way to make a sorta conventional scope that only has two magnifications that are very well optimized. For example 7x/14x. That idea did not work great with binoculars mostly because of how hard it is to properly balance two separate optical systems with varying magnification. With a riflescope being only one optical system, this may be more doable. If the optics do not need to be optimized across the board, but at two setting only, we could get a nicely compact and high performing device.

ILya

 

[Lowlight]

Not a lot of people like them, but I did, the Elcan had the dual power and I think it worked well for a semi-auto battle rifle.

If there was a throw ring I would say do a 9x/18x if that was a choice, but 7x/14x, or even 7.5x/15x would be great.

I think a nice modern fixed would be decent to work with, especially around 14x

The key would be a great reticle and a nice NF / ATACR type turret system or even go a step further and do a turret-like the Revic, tool-less with a larger cap.

 

[koshkin]

Not a lot of people like them, but I did, the Elcan had the dual power and I think it worked well for a semi-auto battle rifle.

If there was a throw ring I would say do a 9x/18x if that was a choice, but 7x/14x, or even 7.5x/15x would be great.

I think a nice modern fixed would be decent to work with, especially around 14x

The key would be a great reticle and a nice NF / ATACR type turret system or even go a step further and do a turret-like the Revic, tool-less with a larger cap.

I like Elcans quite a bit and I tested the TR extensively. TR was very good on 1x and 3x, but a little weaker on 9x.

If you do not have to worry about 1x, I think it is possible to make a well optimized dual power scope.

Something to think about.

ILya

 

[264win]

I would like to see better fixed power options. A quality fixed power with mil/mil and around 10x would be great. Perhaps a 6x option as well.

 

[gnochi]

I’d be down for a couple fixed 14s in the $600 range, even without the 7x option. (I could be convinced to pay another hundred or so for a 3.5x/14x though.)

Priorities:

1. Mechanical - good tracking
2. Optical - no CA
3. Optical - depth of field
4. Optical - field of view
5. Mechanical - lightweight