12 rounds suck. Change my mind.

[q-wagoner]

I have noticed a trend that more and more matches are incorporating 12 round stages. Is this a good or bad thing? As a competitor I don't like the Idea of barrel burning stages on 90 and 100 degree days. As an MD I am sensitive to that as well as basically requiring all of our competitors to have to buy an extra attachment to be competitive.

What are your thoughts?

Quinton

 

[Eric32]

I think it should make reloading your rifle part of the stage, and a mandatory movement. Barrels are consumables like bullets.

 

[davsco]

mo' shooting = mo' better!

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I put 5440rds threw a 300wm an most were very quick when it was being shot. When I had it re-barreled it was still shooting better than moa. Sent the old barrel back to Rock Creek they inspected it an the first 1.5" of rifling was gone. A 12 rd stage is nothing compared to how my 300 was shot. I've burned the seats in the trucks many times with hot barrels but they all still shoot great. Don't fret the small shit an talk yourself out of things that mean nothing in the first place. 5440 rd of match 300wm at $1.07 per = $5,820 an change. Barrel $350.00 + install $300.00 = $650.00,... Simple math
Mike Rock posted his results on the Hide after he inspected it back when we had just got a new president from Kenya,..

 

[lash]

I don’t have much problem with 12 round stages, but as an occasional MD, I still think that a mandatory mag change is a good skill to have under pressure. I am not seeing much of that these days.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have noticed a trend that more and more matches are incorporating 12 round stages. Is this a good or bad thing? As a competitor I don't like the Idea of barrel burning stages on 90 and 100 degree days. As an MD I am sensitive to that as well as basically requiring all of our competitors to have to buy an extra attachment to be competitive.

What are your thoughts?

Quinton

I think part of the issue is when the first thing people think about is how to buy or modify something to get around it.

You can easily keep round count at 8 or 10 and require a mag change at 4 or 5 rounds.


I also don’t have much sympathy for “barrel burner” stages. Guys are buying 6mm barrels at running them at 3100. You’re not gonna get a ton more rounds out of you barrel if you take out these stages.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It also depends on what the goal of a stage is.

Is the goal for the average shooter to be able to get all shots off comfortably and able to clean the stage?

Or is the goal for only the very best who have practiced many hours to be able to squeak out a clean stage?

Or, is the stage purposely not able to be completed in the allotted time, therefore making the shooter decide to get off good clean shots, or rush and sling lead down range?

 

[lash]

It also depends on what the goal of a stage is.

Is the goal for the average shooter to be able to get all shots off comfortably and able to clean the stage?

Or is the goal for only the very best who have practiced many hours to be able to squeak out a clean stage?

Or, is the stage purposely not able to be completed in the allotted time, therefore making the shooter decide to get off good clean shots, or rush and sling lead down range?

These are very good questions.

As an occasional match director or COF designer, these questions do not always get answered the same. Depending upon many factors, not the least of which is the fact that the group that is most interested in attending any given match, based upon input and experience, tends to move the match narrative. I expect that these inputs vary based upon region, but they are real and cannot be ignored if you want people interested in attending.

I won’t lie. The reason that so many of us help out and pitch in to make local matches possible, is that we:
A) want to keep the sport alive so that you and we can participate,
B) actually do want to make it possible for others to discover the fun and challenge of competitive long range shooting.
C) enjoy shooting and the good people we meet while doing it.

 

[Ratchety]

Shooters don't need anything but a rifle and some rounds and maybe a hoodie or cargo pants to store ammo, to come and experience competitive shooting. You can hand feed and shoot well...seen it done by an F class guy that smoked us at a match two years ago.
The magazines, match savers and magazine pouches come later when they want to be competitive.
I agree with mag changes and support the use of them.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

As a shooter that can only run 10/11rd mags (as there's still no such thing as a commercially available 12+rd AW magazine), 12rd stages don't bother me one bit, as I can do a reload on those stages just fine. I finished the 13 round rabbit mover stage at K&M last year with 1 miss in 45 seconds, including an emergency reload after I forgot about my planned magazine change and ran the bolt onto an empty chamber.

As for barrels, they're consumable. Carry a good barrel cooler (RifleKuhl, I am looking at you) to get the temp down between stages and drive on.

 

[47guy]

As a shooter that can only run 10/11rd mags (as there's still no such thing as a commercially available 12+rd AW magazine), 12rd stages don't bother me one bit, as I can do a reload on those stages just fine. I finished the 13 round rabbit mover stage at K&M last year with 1 miss in 45 seconds, including an emergency reload after I forgot about my planned magazine change and ran the bolt onto an empty chamber.

As for barrels, they're consumable. Carry a good barrel cooler (RifleKuhl, I am looking at you) to get the temp down between stages and drive on.

burn em down and spin on a new one!!

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

burn em down and spin on a new one!!

Pretty much. I don't abuse my barrels (especially in practice), but they're definitely best thought of as consumable items. Thankfully, I was able to get into a position where I could keep a spare broken in barrel on the shelf so I am not screwed if a barrel goes out unexpectedly between matches. I hunt Bartlein barrel certs at matches now to keep my costs down, too.

 

[just browsing]

As a shooter that can only run 10/11rd mags (as there's still no such thing as a commercially available 12+rd AW magazine), 12rd stages don't bother me one bit, as I can do a reload on those stages just fine. I finished the 13 round rabbit mover stage at K&M last year with 1 miss in 45 seconds, including an emergency reload after I forgot about my planned magazine change and ran the bolt onto an empty chamber.

As for barrels, they're consumable. Carry a good barrel cooler (RifleKuhl, I am looking at you) to get the temp down between stages and drive on.

I would rather burn out my barrel than listen to the stupid RifleKuhl... and I have a RifleKuhl.

 

[47guy]

Pretty much. I don't abuse my barrels (especially in practice), but they're definitely best thought of as consumable items. Thankfully, I was able to get into a position where I could keep a spare broken in barrel on the shelf so I am not screwed if a barrel goes out unexpectedly between matches. I hunt Bartlein barrel certs at matches now to keep my costs down, too.

i have 4 chambered at a time and ive started running 2 rifles now instead of one...i shoot a 6br for tactical matches and a 6BRX for all others...ive pretty much given up on trying to get more life out of a barrel im pretty hard on them but like we say they are consumables.

 

[Fig]

Shooting in the hot sun where your barrel is already to hot to touch before you start is a bad place to require long strings of fire. I don't want to burn one up gratuitously, and I think it's really rude for a MD to put an extended fire stage in a match in the desert. However, since the majority of stages are 10rnd, and my stick-on thermometer never gets anywhere near the danger zone, unless the rifle is sitting in the sun before my turn, for 10 shots then two more shots isn't going to make any difference.

I've shot matches where I carried a wet towel to cover my barrel between stages because it was so hot and nowhere to set the rifle in the shade. How much this preserves the barrel life I don't know, but it makes me feel better about it.

I just don't want a barrel to let go during a match. I've seen it happen, and seen the frustration on the guy's face when all of a sudden his shots started to musket-ball all over the targets. It's usually when they were trying to squeeze one more match and knew it was a high round count. I shoot a switch barrel and keep a spare precisely because I've seen this happen and it sucks.

 

[lash]

Shooting in the hot sun where your barrel is already to hot to touch before you start is a bad place to require long strings of fire. I don't want to burn one up gratuitously, and I think it's really rude for a MD to put an extended fire stage in a match in the desert. However, since the majority of stages are 10rnd, and my stick-on thermometer never gets anywhere near the danger zone, unless the rifle is sitting in the sun before my turn, for 10 shots then two more shots isn't going to make any difference.

I've shot matches where I carried a wet towel to cover my barrel between stages because it was so hot and nowhere to set the rifle in the shade. How much this preserves the barrel life I don't know, but it makes me feel better about it.

I just don't want a barrel to let go during a match. I've seen it happen, and seen the frustration on the guy's face when all of a sudden his shots started to musket-ball all over the targets. It's usually when they were trying to squeeze one more match and knew it was a high round count. I shoot a switch barrel and keep a spare precisely because I've seen this happen and it sucks.

BTDT. Just into the second day of a two day match. Made that second day pretty long, for sure.

 

[mcfred]

If you choose to run a barrel burner cartridge for LR steel matches, then you should plan and budget accordingly. If you're shelling out to attend an expensive match, it's probably a good idea not to shoot a marginal, high round count barrel if you're concerned it'll tank mid-match. Pre-emptively rebarrel and use what's left of the other for training.

I started shooting .223 Rem when the local matches were being planned by one of our local gunsmiths. He had stages of unlimited round counts in a 2 minute window. We razzed him for designing his stages to drum up business.

 

[sinister]

As a military man who played civilian games to keep up my shooting skills I laugh at those who complain that shooting disciplines (not necessarily sport) actually use up consumables like ammunition, barrels, springs, and batteries.

"It's not fair."

Whah.

National Match and military combat disciplines require mag changes. It's to make you break position and have to re-build it.

 

[JMGlasgow]

12 round stages don't bother me much. It's the 12 round stage and ridiculous 1:30 time limit with 3 or 4 transitions that are stupid.

 

[PAYDIRT]

12 is fine as long as there's a mag swap in there.

 

[W54/XM-388]

As a shooter that can only run 10/11rd mags (as there's still no such thing as a commercially available 12+rd AW magazine), 12rd stages don't bother me one bit, as I can do a reload on those stages just fine. I finished the 13 round rabbit mover stage at K&M last year with 1 miss in 45 seconds, including an emergency reload after I forgot about my planned magazine change and ran the bolt onto an empty chamber.

If you are running one of the AI AWs or similar, you can just top off through the ejection port if needed.

 

[lash]

If you are running one of the AI AWs or similar, you can just top off through the ejection port if needed.

This.
I find that faster for just two rounds than a mag change. The two round holder on my rifle gets used fairly often. It’s not just there to look OAF.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Barrels are consumables, add a dime around to your match fees and buy a new barrel once a year or so. Different disciplines may have different rifles but they are all expendable. Service Rifle barrels last about 3-5000 rounds, with 50 or 80 round matches shot in temps up to 100+ degrees.

 

[308pirate]

Highpower guys have been running back to back 10 round strings of rapid fire twice per match forever. Don't be a snowflake.

 

[PAYDIRT]

My hired hand has chocolate chip cookies and a Budweiser every morning for breakfast for as long as I've known him.

 

[CuTm]

My hired hand has chocolate chip cookies and a Budweiser every morning for breakfast for as long as I've known him.

Smokin crack?

 

[308pirate]

My hired hand has chocolate chip cookies and a Budweiser every morning for breakfast for as long as I've known him.

 

[Precision Underground]

I put 5440rds threw a 300wm an most were very quick when it was being shot. When I had it re-barreled it was still shooting better than moa. Sent the old barrel back to Rock Creek they inspected it an the first 1.5" of rifling was gone. A 12 rd stage is nothing compared to how my 300 was shot. I've burned the seats in the trucks many times with hot barrels but they all still shoot great. Don't fret the small shit an talk yourself out of things that mean nothing in the first place. 5440 rd of match 300wm at $1.07 per = $5,820 an change. Barrel $350.00 + install $300.00 = $650.00,... Simple math
Mike Rock posted his results on the Hide after he inspected it back when we had just got a new president from Kenya,..

This makes me happy to read. My 300 Norma is a rock creek and I do not baby it when angrily throwing round after round at the 1950 yd target lol.

 

[47guy]

I shot a 300wm for about 5yrs and never came close to that many rounds through a barrel...matter of fact I never had two barrel go that many rounds...every 300wm barrel i shot was more like a 6mm barrel

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

This makes me happy to read. My 300 Norma is a rock creek and I do not baby it when angrily throwing round after round at the 1950 yd target lol.

A gun is but a tool to me, just use it, till it pukes, fix it or replace it an drive on. Safe queens are for Gucci boys,... not hillbilly's like me. The interesting thing is, take safe queen drivers off their home range, an they are mostly lost every time.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

If you are running one of the AI AWs or similar, you can just top off through the ejection port if needed.

I shaved the back of the followers on my AWs for that exact reason. Depending on the stage design, it may be faster to reload if you can do the reload on the move when changing positions. If not, I'll usually load from the side, which is what I did at K&M this weekend for the 12 round mover stage (11 in the mag, one loaded from the side).

 

[The Durk]

I find them to be really fun. I have a 2 round quiver next to the ejection port. Just pop them in one after another. It helps train a little bit for dexterity under pressure. As far as barrel burning goes....I bought a rifle with quick swap barrel capability for this exact reason. I plan on going through a barrel every 1-2 years.

 

[lash]

It is quicker for me to hand load the one or two extras from my side holder than to change mags. I never have to get off the glass or the cheek piece. I know where they are and they throw in the ejection port just fine.

Since I shoot all my ELR .338 LM loads by hand feeding due to OAL issues, it is a natural movement and barely slower than feeding them all from a mag.

 

[LawnMM]

No issue with it, have a mag with extension plus a spare on the belt. Make the round count whatever you want, plenty of time to prep.

The mover stage at the Cup in Weldona was unlimited rounds and looked like a machine gun nest there were so many cases laying on the ground. Wasn't uncommon to get like 25-30 rounds off.