Range Report 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

[adam1122]

Alright, for shooting at distances from 800+ which has better ballistic performance? Does the 155amax stay supersonic further?

I am trying to decide on my next load of custom ammo and here they are in order of what I am thinking. Shots will be taken at 800+.

1. Southwest Ammo 175SMK (what I shoot now)
2. Southwest Ammo 168 BTHP
3. 155gr Amax....best supplier is who?

Thanks guys.

Adam

 

[blklabs]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

If you want to really maximize your performance past 800, I would look at the 155 Lapua Scenar. If they run hot enough, they will perform really well at those distances.

If you handload and have the right barrel twist, the 208 AMAX's are performing very well for me.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

I'd make the older SMKs my second choice to everything else.

I'd also start reloading or looking at other sources for ammo. Hornady makes a good 178Amax load.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Don't you have a good load already to hit a playing card at 1000 yards?

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adamxdavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright, for shooting at distances from 800+ which has better ballistic performance? Does the 155amax stay supersonic further?

I am trying to decide on my next load of custom ammo and here they are in order of what I am thinking. Shots will be taken at 800+.

1. Southwest Ammo 175SMK (what I shoot now)
2. Southwest Ammo 168 BTHP
3. 155gr Amax....best supplier is who?

Thanks guys.

Adam </div></div>

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Hornady factory 155gr Match (Amax)
MV= 2850
BC= .435

 

[adam1122]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Yeah, Mr. Gambler.....I've been using 175SMK's as you well know from Southwest Ammo. I want to see if I can get a flatter shooting round that requires less MOA to get out to the target. 175SMK out of my rifle requires anywhere from 38.5 to 41.5MOA depending on conditions.

You have real doubts that people can hit targets at 1000 with a 20in .308 barrel. Are you going to start bashing about 20 other people on the board. Their must be 40 videos of people hitting steel targets at 1000 all over the web so why the doubt???

I have offered to accept your friends challenge and have not heard back from him. In the meantime, keep your mouth closed when I ask the Hide on how I might be able to maximize the performance of my rig...I don't bash you...you don't bash me.

And no, I have not shot a playing card but I am pretty damn sure I can do it. That's an attitude that is trained...you can do anything...nothing is impossible. The youtube video will be waiting for you on Youtube once I have it completed. You talk alot of crap for someone who talks like civilian shooter that has never been shot at.

Here's a test...go set up your little target at 100 yards and have someone shoot back at you....tell me how well you return fire and how your groups look.

 

[adam1122]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Oh, your in Houston.....let's go to the range and see how we do.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

OP- You claimed that you could EASILY hit a playing card at 1000 METERS--yet subsequently admitted that you had NEVER even shot a rifle at that distance.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Like I have said in the past, there is a group of us that goes out to ASC every weekend in the morning at 600 yards to shoot. You are welcome to come out and join if you want. Just leave the internet douchebaggery behind, you won't impress any of us at the range. We all have seen it too many times. Yesterday someone told us that the longest confirmed sniper kill was from a Remington 700 with a 308. WTFOVER? If you really want to shoot to 1k, I am a member at Bayou Rifles and can get that arranged to.

There is also a standing offer by Frank, he will pay for your gas and 500 bucks to the charity for you to do it hit a playing card at 1k.

When did I say I have doubts of a 20" 308 shooting to 1k? I know it can do it. I know my 18" TRG can do it. It wouldn't be my first choice. I have other calibers for such task!

 

[Chanonry]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blklabs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to really maximize your performance past 800, I would look at the 155 Lapua Scenar. If they run hot enough, they will perform really well at those distances.

If you handload and have the right barrel twist, the 208 AMAX's are performing very well for me.</div></div>

+1 I shoot both of them.

The 208 is just fantastic but it is a long bullet and looking at stability it is marginal in some common atmospherics for me. I also can't load to mag length. Shows you how good it is that I want to shoot it to 1000+. The case is FULL.

If I am a bit concerned with stability, or am not going to 1000, I will shoot the Scenar. Excellent BC, can use a variety of powders. A bit expensive over here so I may go to the SMK 155, bit cheaper and it doesn't give up much. With my gun it can't quite deliver the velocity to reliably get to 1000+ hence shooting both.

Hard to go wrong

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Labs,

At what speed do you consider "hot"? The reason I ask, is I have a very accurate 155 scenar load but have yet to chrony it. I was hoping to shoot this out to 1000 yds at 2850 fps out of an 18.5" barrel.

Not ideal, but will this get me there in your opinion?

Thanks,

John

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blklabs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to really maximize your performance past 800, I would look at the 155 Lapua Scenar. If they run hot enough, they will perform really well at those distances.

If you handload and have the right barrel twist, the 208 AMAX's are performing very well for me. </div></div>

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

2850 from an 18.5 barrel is good going. Not just about length but also tightness/quality of barrel. That's harder to measure and is probably overlooked too often.

 

[adam1122]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Man, you need to let some things go. Im not bragging....saying I can hit a smaller size target is not the same as saying I can hit a 4 x 4? size target with gunfire and grenades going off all around me. I dont make it out to ASC that much but will make an exception in this case. I am out of town but when I return let me know what day of the week and time you head out there and I will meet you guys there. We can set up all kinds od unusual targets....cards, triangles, who cares as long as we are putting steel downrange right? Are you going to take all the fun out of this? I enjoy competition and I do not like to loose at anything...especially shooting. And if I have to eat my words then so be eat...I will man up and do it. But please don't doubt my abilities just bc I wrote some dumb crap when I was sleep depraived...gimme a break man.

You let me know the time in the next 2-3 weeks annd we will go shoot some really dangerous paper targets to the best of our (or my) ability.

 

[adam1122]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Oh, and If I hit the a card a 1000 he can make a check out to St. Judes Childrens Hospital...they have a fundraiser/gala coming up in September.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

We don't need unusual targets. We usually shoot at various size targets at 600. 3 and 4" circles at 600 is usually a good challenge. Shit, most of the guys out there can't even hit a 8" circle at that distance. Now too easy is the 14 and 16" squares. We use those as sighters for the the small 3 and 4" circles.

I could care less about if you can shoot or not. But to make some of the claims you have done in the past, it's going to come back and bite you in the ass. We have seen our fair share of asshats online and at the range. So come on out. We are there in the mornings on the weekends, it gets way too hot to shoot in the afternoons.

 

[adam1122]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Sorry if I got a little testy with you on the forum - that was inapprpriate. Since ASC has some pretty firm rules out there will they let us shoot prone at 600 or do we have to sit on a bench? Also, they have some long wait times between cease fires so if you want to spend half a day we could go to Impact Zone where the target are steel and the ranges are marked in increments of 100 all the way to 1000 where you then climb a 25 foot tower and shoot over the "top" of the ranges below. Lots of fun. I am sure I can get you on as a guest even though it's private.

Also, not sure what you are used to but is this a full gear challenge (meaning, body armor, helmet and the rest etc?)

This will be fun man...I really am looking forward to it. If nothing else, I think you might be able to help me select the best performing load at the 600 yard distance. 175SMK may suck at that range where a 168bthp or 155amax may wipe its butt.

Also, are you planning on shooting with a can or without? Not that it matters just find it more fun shooting with suppresors. Just let me know some dates and we will have alot of fun.

Regards,
Adam

 

[adam1122]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

You mentioned 2850fps out of an 18in barrel with the 155amax? Is that for real? What do you think I should expect with a 20in barrel? If this is the case the 155amax will still be supersonic at 1000.

Any help would be great. Just want to find the best ammo I can for my rig.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adamxdavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry if I got a little testy with you on the forum - that was inapprpriate. Since ASC has some pretty firm rules out there will they let us shoot prone at 600 or do we have to sit on a bench? Also, they have some long wait times between cease fires so if you want to spend half a day we could go to Impact Zone where the target are steel and the ranges are marked in increments of 100 all the way to 1000 where you then climb a 25 foot tower and shoot over the "top" of the ranges below. Lots of fun. I am sure I can get you on as a guest even though it's private.

Also, not sure what you are used to but is this a full gear challenge (meaning, body armor, helmet and the rest etc?)

This will be fun man...I really am looking forward to it. If nothing else, I think you might be able to help me select the best performing load at the 600 yard distance. 175SMK may suck at that range where a 168bthp or 155amax may wipe its butt.

Also, are you planning on shooting with a can or without? Not that it matters just find it more fun shooting with suppresors. Just let me know some dates and we will have alot of fun.

Regards,
Adam </div></div>

Impact Zone doesn't have a 1k yard range. Nor do they have a tower. I know the owner Phil. IZ is geared for more of the run and gun crowd as he stages a lot of 3 gun matches there.

Also we don't go to the range with body armor. Shit, I don't wear any kind of mall ninja clothing to the range. I just bring my rifle, ammo, spotting scope, shooting mat and go to town. There is not too many people shooting the longer ranges and we call cease fires frequently enough for everyone to get their targets. At least once an hour. And as for shooting suppressed. Most of us do it, including me. Rarely do I ever shoot unsuppressed.

 

[adam1122]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Ugh, Im no mall ninja but 2 people have been killed in the past couple of years at the rifle range at ASC. I try to practice as I train and beyond that have you seen some of the idiots at ASC? Last time I was there a guy shot a hole in the roof trying to load his glock 17.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

That sounds about right with any public range you go to. Good thing I don't shoot at the more populated 100 yards and in ranges that often.

You can wear body armor if you want. At first we will probably have a good laugh and then might feel sorry for you sweating your ass off in the hot ass sun with a chest rig and plates just to shoot at 600. That is, if you are even qualified to shoot at that distance....

 

[adam1122]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Yeah, body armor in the heat just sucks but I'm used to it. I promise I won't inadvertently shoot your target by mistake ok......

Maybe I'm just full of it and can't hit the broadside of a bus at 25 yards.....well see. Looking forward to it my friend should be fun.

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adamxdavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mentioned 2850fps out of an 18in barrel with the 155amax? Is that for real? What do you think I should expect with a 20in barrel? If this is the case the 155amax will still be supersonic at 1000.

Any help would be great. Just want to find the best ammo I can for my rig. </div></div>

me? I never referenced a 18" barrel but I posted 2850fps from Hornady's website because I took the time to look it up. It references a 24" test barrel.

http://www.hornady.com/store/search...56&categoryid[]=297&categoryid[]=271&x=29&y=6

You can build a table comparing the three cartidges knowing MV, BC, or bullet. I had provided a calculator link. In the case of reduced MV due to shorter barrel lengths; either fudge the MV removing 20fps/inch or do the comparison at common 24" test barrel length to see what bullet/load has the best trajectory or retained velocity.

1. Southwest Ammo 175SMK (what I shoot now)
2. Southwest Ammo 168 BTHP
3. 155gr Amax....best supplier is who?

The SW 175SMK will best the 168 at range so your down to comparing two from your own quick research.

 

[adam1122]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Thanks for the help!

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adamxdavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mentioned 2850fps out of an 18in barrel with the 155amax? Is that for real? What do you think I should expect with a 20in barrel? If this is the case the 155amax will still be supersonic at 1000.

Any help would be great. Just want to find the best ammo I can for my rig. </div></div>

The load I was referring to is with 155 scenars which shoot extremely well out of both my .308's. It took a while to find the sweet spot but once there, OH MAN!

Both barrels in my rifles are Bartlein 1;11.25 twist-speeds below:

24"-2930 fps (29.93 MOA elevation to 1000 yds)
18.5"-2875 fps (31.09 MOA elevation to 1000 yds) 1347 fps @ 1000 (still supersonic)

*For your 20" barrel and Amax's, you would need to chrony as all barrels are different

Keep in mind, a lot of people don't have luck with thie 155 scenars.....

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

For ballistics of the 155s, see:
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/155_Berger_Lapua_Sierra.pdf

After this the discussion generally degrades into a heated discussion as to whether its better to have a high BC low weight bullet (155s) or a high BC heavy bullet (like a 208) and these discussion revolve around reading the wind (heavies win the wind battle, lighties win the drop battle).

In my opinion, it is better to be fully intune with your load that to mythically search for the absolutly optimal load. A load that you have shoot a 1000 rounds of and kept accurate records of drop and windage is vastly better than a load that would shoot better if only you knew what to dial into the turrets.

 

[okiefired]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Was gonna comment since I've had experience with all bullets mentioned plus the 178 Amax which I prefer but WTH, I'm just a know nothing civi thats never had a granade thrown at him so what could I posibly know..... I'll keep my mouth shut.

okie

 

[mason.fernandez]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

If you have a 10 twist (an 11 twist may work as well, but I don't know), the 208 Amax is the way to go. Skip the light bullets. I use the 208 Amax in my .300 win mag and my .30-06, and they work wonders over those light bullets. With a claimed G1 ballistic coefficient of .648 and a measured G7 BC of .324, how can you complain? The only problem is, that you need to reload. If that's not an option, the 175 SMK will stay supersonic for slightly longer; where I shoot (8500 feet), the difference is about 100 yards (1600 yards vs. 1500 yards). If you can, please consider reloading. It saves me a ton of money with my rifles. Not only that, you can customize your load to your rifle, making it as accurate and fast as you can.

 

[XTR]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

I probably missed it but I don't see where the OP has mentioned his barrel length, but I'm going to assume (scarey) that hes using something in the 20"-24" range. If you are really shooting a 20" tube and regularly shooting over 800 you may want to look at a longer barrel. Yes it can be done, but it is far from ideal.

I've worked on loads from 155's to 185's for 308s to shoot at 1000 yds in F-class and here is what I've found. For the sake of comparison I'm running 308 built by Longshot Rifles with a 24" Rock Creek #7 contour barrel.

Elevation is pretty straight forward, everyone can get that and a ballistics program will get you very close if you put the right data in. I typically keep any of the loads w/i the height of the 10 ring at 1000 yds (10 inches) 18 to 20 times out of 20, on the other hand, wind will kick your ass.

What I found is that with a "short" barrel (and my 24 is short for F-class) you can get 155s up to velocities that will buy you 4 to 5 MOA at 1000 yds; however, I found that they didn't buy me enough windage to make them worth while. (I don't have my logbook here to give you exact numbers) I'm using Varget, I was having to use a lot more powder, close to 47gn, and I wasn't gaining enough.

From my gun the 175SMK running at 2650FPS gets pushed about 10" per MPH of full value wind and takes 36MOA to 36.5MOA to get to 1000 depending on the DA. Berger 185 BTs at 2590 give me about the same elevation and buy me a couple of inches of drift if you believe the ballistics tables.


The best way to find out what works for you is to get to the range and shoot.

 

[bm11]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

So how did the deck of cards at 1000 yards go? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[ponchair]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Armor at the range?

Grenades going off while you shoot?

Sounds fishy to me.

 

[Jimlaw83]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

175 at 2600 and 155 at 2850+ should be fine to 1000. If you aren't going to handload, a chronograph to measure exact mv is absolutely required. If you use published velocity you will always be walking on. At a shoot last weekend I plugged in exact data and got cold bore hits at 1000 and 1100 yards, but later in the day I was shooting high. I went back and plugged in the new temperature and humidity (had gone from 90 degrees with 60% humidity to 107 with 31% humidity) and it resulted in over .2 mils of elevation change at 1k. (over 7 inches), but the jbm app went back to exactly matching my real world observations. Good data in= good data out.

 

[ponchair]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimlaw83</div><div class="ubbcode-body">175 at 2600 and 155 at 2850+ should be fine to 1000. If you aren't going to handload, a chronograph to measure exact mv is absolutely required. If you use published velocity you will always be walking on. At a shoot last weekend I plugged in exact data and got cold bore hits at 1000 and 1100 yards, but later in the day I was shooting high. I went back and plugged in the new temperature and humidity (had gone from 90 degrees with 60% humidity to 107 with 31% humidity) and it resulted in over .2 mils of elevation change at 1k. (over 7 inches), but the jbm app went back to exactly matching my real world observations. Good data in= good data out. </div></div>

DA is your friend.

 

[SIE107]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Trajectory
Input Data
Manufacturer: Hornady Description: Amax (Litz)
Caliber: 0.308 in Weight: 155.0 gr

Muzzle Velocity: 2850.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft

Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Speed: 10.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Height: 12.0 in

Temperature: 80.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 920.0 ft

Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 5.222 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.07108 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1138.8 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 343 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 291 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 161 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 1639.0 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.233 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
200 -0.0 -0.0 2.9 1.4 2451.3 2.152 2067.6 0.227 39.9 19.1
300 -7.5 -2.4 6.9 2.2 2261.3 1.986 1759.6 0.354 62.3 19.8
400 -21.9 -5.2 12.8 3.0 2080.4 1.827 1489.3 0.492 86.7 20.7
500 -44.3 -8.5 20.8 4.0 1907.6 1.675 1252.2 0.643 113.2 21.6
600 -76.2 -12.1 31.3 5.0 1741.8 1.529 1044.0 0.808 142.2 22.6
700 -119.7 -16.3 44.6 6.1 1582.5 1.390 861.7 0.988 174.0 23.7
800 -177.1 -21.1 61.2 7.3 1429.9 1.256 703.5 1.188 209.1 25.0
900 -251.6 -26.7 81.7 8.7 1285.1 1.128 568.3 1.409 248.0 26.3
1000 -347.3 -33.2 106.7 10.2 1151.3 1.011 456.1 1.656 291.5 27.8

08/09/11 17:39, JBM/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

The 155gr AMax will be on the cusp of transonic at 1000 yards, with the great chance that it will start to keyhole before it gets to the target. You will need either a lot of powder to get it going faster, or more bbl to get better volicity. Also the wind at that speed will be one minute of angle for every mile an hour of full value wind.

 

[XTR]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ninja Pirtle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DA is your friend. </div></div>

True dat!

I have seen well over .5 MOA change in elevation to 1000yd between my first relay at 1000 (upper 79s)and my last one at 1500 (upper 90s) a hot day. My Kestrel will show over 1000 feet in change in DA.

If you have to get the first shot on target and don't get sighters you need to embrace DA.

 

[Jimlaw83]

Re: 155Amx vs. 175SMK what is better?

Amen. Myself and others got a great lesson in the advantages of accurate current atmospheric conditions as opposed to just computer generated print outs with generic conditions. A good side note, the numbers kept matching observations when I changed atmosphere. That means that despite the temperature increase throughout the day,(almost 20 degrees) my MV stayed at or near where it was during load development(right at 30 degrees below shooting conditions). 2000mr, great stuff and apparently temperature stable too! 2747 fps with 175 SMKs and I'm a grain and a half below book max!