16" .308 at 1200 yards...

[vmpglenn]

OK.

As some of you know, Larue Tactical is releasing a new .308 semiauto precision rifle called the OSR (Optimized Sniper Rifle). It is pin-compatible with the KAC M110/SR25/Mk11 series of rifles and uses Lothar Walther LW50 barrels.

Mark Larue has been reporting at least one test shooter <span style="text-decoration: line-through">regularly</span> hitting a 9" plate at <span style="text-decoration: line-through">1200</span> 1123 yards with the 16" barreled version of the OSR shooting M118LR. The bullet is almost certainly subsonic at this distance. Clearly, this is within the realm of possibility, but I'm wondering if other LR shooters see this as a fluke of circumstances (shooter, weather, altitude, etc) or the truth coming out about the capabilities of a 16" barreled .308.

In other words, does a shooter wishing to shoot at 1000 yards with regularity have a decent chance of success over time with at 16" barreled .308, given modern .308 loads?

By asking this question, I am in no way impugning Mark Larue or his statements. I'm just trying to figure out if 16" is in fact a viable length for precision work at a distance.

ETA: Let me correct myself here.

It was 1123 yards, a 9" plate, and two hits in a row by Greg Coker shooting at Whittington Center:

16" OSR test results

My apologies for my initial post not being quite on the money.

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Ok, so I am NOT the only one that has had these same questions. BUT I had them and called BS and it was explained to me this way.

This is what I was told in not so many words but I had to dumb it down for myself to understand it. Take traditional barrel thoughts and throw them out the window.

Since ML has not released the actual specs of the barrel his is using then there is no way that we can discount his findings. With traditional barrels we dont believe that it is possible but there is nothing saying that ML has spec'd the OSR with a tradtionally rifled barrel.

So until actual specs of his barrel are released I do have to take what he says about it as a possibility.

 

[Doug Shooter]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

I would think that you would have to use handloads. It seems like a stretch but I don't know for sure. I think he is a man of his word though.

I had asked many guys here about shooting 1000yrds with my 16" barreled DPMS AP4 308 and from what I was told with handloads it might be possible. But not with any factory ammo that anyone was familar with. I would think that LaRue's 308 is better quality than DPMS's. Though I have never held a LaRue 308.


Tough call.

 

[Sig685]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

Oh wow, what a fool I have been! Why did I even bother getting a 32 inch barrel for my F-T/R rifle just so I could stay above Mach 1.2 at 1000 yards; I should have procured one of those magical 16 inch barrels made with equal parts pixie dust and unobtainium and saved a lot of weight in the process.

So, do these barrels just ignore the laws of physics or simply rearrange them? Please explain to me how a regular .308 cartridge can be stuffed with enough propellent to safely get my 180gr bullets to 2850FPS in 16 inches. I wonder in what shape the brass is when it finally cools down enough to be extracted. Will the primer still be in the rifle somewhere or in the middle of my forehead.

As you can see, I seriously doubt the bullet will be anywhere near supersonic much past 700-800 yards, let alone 1000 or 1200 yards. What is critical here is that the bullet survive the transonic passage without tumbling and most bullets do that, except for some very well-known examples such as the 168GR SMK. From that point on, it's just a matter of skill and luck to have it on target.

I for one would love to see this demonstration by a test shooter. Hitting sub MOA on demand at any time, at 1000 yards with a .308 is very difficult with a match rifle, I would love to see it done at 1200 yards with a 16 inch barrel, on demand, at any time.

I'm not holding my breath for an invitation to see this, but one never knows.

 

[tikkafan]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

Is regularly hitting a target the same as hitting it every time?

The OSR sounds like a cool project but I'll wait for the AAR.

 

[vmpglenn]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ty the Sako Guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is regularly hitting a target the same as hitting it every time?
</div></div>

I actually have no idea, and I don't think Mark ever said.

However, I would be ecstatic with a consistent 50% hit rate at 1200 yds with a 16" barreled .308 on a 9" plate.

Once the bullet is subsonic, what shooter skills are involved in ensuring it hits the target? I'm guessing the biggest variable is wind?

 

[Sig685]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

To my mind, it's has to be pretty synonymous or somebody is playing Clintonian word games. If a company is going to use that as a measure of accuracy, they need to justify it.

 

[desertHK]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

18" barrel to 1K. No problem believing it. 16" to 1.2K? I call it BS, unless they can prove it. BTW, keyholing doesn't count in my book.

 

[poison123]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

 

[Graham]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vmpgsc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...at least one test shooter regularly hitting a 9" plate at 1200 yards with the 16" barreled version of the OSR shooting M118LR. The bullet is almost certainly subsonic at this distance.</div></div>Reliable sub-MOA performance from a subsonic .308 bullet at 1200 yards: Nope.

 

[RussW1911]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

If Mark Larue said it was then it was. Period.

Don't you know who he is!!

 

[Wil]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

What makes you think the barrel is spec'd to anything that we've seen before?

What makes you think that the OSR is a SAAMI spec'd sloppy chamber with a traditional barrel?

What makes you thing M118LR is subsonic at this distance from this rifle?

Why would Mark say something like that without being able to back it up or have the data? Mark doesn't make it a habit of doing this, so I'm wondering why would he do it now?


Ask Todd Hodnett if he likes short barrels for LR work... <grin>

'Doc' if you're readin' this... Howdy!

-Wil

 

[Sig685]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What makes you think the barrel is spec'd to anything that we've seen before? </div></div>

Absolutely nothing. However, unless the barrel is part of a super conducting magnetic device (and it would not use M118LR,) it doesn't really matter what specs the barrel has. We "know" it's 16 inches long.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What makes you think that the OSR is a SAAMI spec'd sloppy chamber with a traditional barrel? </div></div>

Again, absolutely nothing. We are told nothing about the chamber. But if it's a combat weapon, the chamber is going to be looser than a match weapon, certainly looser than the chamber in mine.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What makes you thing M118LR is subsonic at this distance from this rifle?</div></div>

Physics. In order for a .308 175gr SMK to be supersonic, actually at Mach 1.2 to be able to provide the consistent sub-MOA accuracy touted here, the muzzle velocity will be a somewhat blistering 3400FPS. In a 16 inch barrel, I suspect the high end pressure will be something approaching 150 KPSI or more, and the muzzle blast will be something to behold, probably detectable from low Earth orbit. The shooter and everyone within the same zipcode will probably be deaf for a week, if not permanently.

My guess is the 16 inch barrel, will provide for an MV of 2400FPS or maybe even less, a full 1,000FPS less than what is required.

Now, if you think Mach 1.2 is too much, and only Mach 1.0 is needed, the MV is still 3050FPS, but you can now kiss sub-MOA goodbye and the flight time is just about 2 seconds and wind deflection has just increased by a third.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would Mark say something like that without being able to back it up or have the data? Mark doesn't make it a habit of doing this, so I'm wondering why would he do it now? </div></div>

I have no clue and we don't even know he said anything remotely akin to what is being reported. This is all third-hand, Internet rumors. The LaRue website does not make any mention of it, that I could find. I would consider the whole attribution suspect.

 

[Victory]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

Very interesting indeed. Watch this thread, I will.

 

[GearboxRacquetball]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

Wow, this is going to be an interesting one indeed.

 

[Wil]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a 16 inch barrel, I suspect the high end pressure will be something approaching 150 KPSI or more, and the muzzle blast will be something to behold, probably detectable from low Earth orbit. The shooter and everyone within the same zipcode will probably be deaf for a week, if not permanently. </div></div>



BWAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Victory]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

Im pretty sure he was being facetious Wil.

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vmpgsc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



Mark Larue has been reporting at least one test shooter regularly hitting a 9" plate at 1200 yards with the 16" barreled version of the OSR shooting M118LR. The bullet is almost certainly subsonic at this distance. Clearly, this is within the realm of possibility, but I'm wondering if other LR shooters see this as a fluke of circumstances (shooter, weather, altitude, etc) or the truth coming out about the capabilities of a 16" barreled .308.
</div></div>


I think what we need is some kind of documentation backing up this statement.

Once we know for sure that's actually being said we proceed with the semi auto retina detaching muzzle explosions.

Would love to see a 3500fps MV 16 inch barrel on full auto.

 

[Sig685]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

After I wrote the above, I got to thinking (a dangerous occupation,) that such a muzzle blast may not be totally desirable in a Sniper Rifle as it might possibly give away the position of the shooter, what with all vegetation erradicated for an area just under a half square mile around him. Also, I am thinking the blackened earth would have scorches all pointing back at him.

On the other hand, if the shooter was indoors when he touched off the first round, he would immediately be outside if any follow up rounds were needed and that migh affect his point of aim as the debris of the building might still be falling all around him. I know I would be somewhat distracted, but that's just me.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vmpgsc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">........or the truth coming out about the capabilities of a 16" barreled .308......</div></div>


If I wanted to maximize a 16" 308, here's the route I'd take (an Uber-Gladius):

Long action 700 (some will say why not 30-06 then?, I say too much muzzle blast, not enough velocity gain.)
1/10 twist bbl
Throated for 208 AMax at 3.00" OAL
Win brass
208 AMax
Moly
RL17
A good muzzle brake is a given.

I'm getting 2650 fps from a 20.5" 308 with 208s and '17. A 16" bbl would probably still get 2500 fps. Let the 208s BC do the rest. M118 is a handicap, but I understand if it's for Mil/LEO use.

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vmpgsc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



Mark Larue has been reporting at least one test shooter regularly hitting a 9" plate at 1200 yards with the 16" barreled version of the OSR shooting M118LR. The bullet is almost certainly subsonic at this distance. Clearly, this is within the realm of possibility, but I'm wondering if other LR shooters see this as a fluke of circumstances (shooter, weather, altitude, etc) or the truth coming out about the capabilities of a 16" barreled .308.
</div></div>


I think what we need is some kind of documentation backing up this statement.

Once we know for sure that's actually being said we proceed with the semi auto retina detaching muzzle explosions.

Would love to see a 3500fps MV 16 inch barrel on full auto.

</div></div>

Ahhhh let me find it ...... that is pretty much what ML has said .... a little different wording ... but pretty close.

 

[vmpglenn]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

I added a link to the direct quote in the original post and corrected my wording.

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vmpgsc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">........or the truth coming out about the capabilities of a 16" barreled .308......</div></div>


If I wanted to maximize a 16" 308, here's the route I'd take (an Uber-Gladius):

Long action 700 (some will say why not 30-06 then?, I say too much muzzle blast, not enough velocity gain.)
1/10 twist bbl
Throated for 208 AMax at 3.00" OAL
Win brass
208 AMax
Moly
RL17
A good muzzle brake is a given.

I'm getting 2650 fps from a 20.5" 308 with 208s and '17. A 16" bbl would probably still get 2500 fps. Let the 208s BC do the rest. M118 is a handicap, but I understand if it's for Mil/LEO use.
</div></div>

THAT... actually sounds awesome! I didn't know you were getting that much velocity with '17! What do you shoot with your '06 since you are only getting an extra 50fps out of that?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

In the 22.5" 30-06 I'm shooting 61 gr RL22, for 2720 fps.

You're right, it's not much more than the 20.5" 308 with RL17.

 

[Sig685]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vmpgsc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I added a link to the direct quote in the original post and corrected my wording. </div></div>

Thank you, that certainly explains a few things. There is one aspect that everyone seems to have forgotten.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am currently out here in Raton, NM out at the Whittington center doing some testing with the OSR at altitude and I have had extremely great results!

Here is my data for 2 x days.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Alt - 6742 feet msl </span>

Temp - 68-74

<span style="font-weight: bold">Density Alt - 8654 feet </span> </div></div>

The elevation makes a huge difference. At 2400FPS MV, the bullet is barely supersonic at 1100 yards. And if it's only one hit...

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the 22.5" 30-06 I'm shooting 61 gr RL22, for 2720 fps.

You're right, it's not much more than the 20.5" 308 with RL17.

</div></div>

I've heard the '17 is not that great in the 30-06 since it leaves so much room in the case.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

I don't know. Haven't tried RL17 in the 30-06 yet. Will soon.

The 30-06 earns it's keep with 26" barrel and RL22, then you're looking at 2800 fps with the 208/210s.

 

[Rotortuner]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

Ya thats a really high density alt. Also it 1123 yds, not exactly a full 1200, and he didnt say it in that post but above on that thread he was talking about a supressor, was this with the supressor attached i wonder?

And lets be clear that, its not Mark Larue that shot that, its a report from "Greg" who was shooting at wittington shooting center.

CJG

 

[Rotortuner]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

I actually went and googled Greg Coker, here is his Bio:


Greg Coker is a retired US Army Special Ops combat aviator. He has planned and led scores of real world combat missions with significant tactical, operational, and strategic value during Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan with 100% success, including the first successful rescue of an American POW since World War II. He has achieved 3500 hours of accident free flying, over 2000 hours of NVG and 800 hours of Combat. He was instrumental in developing and implementing advanced firearms training programs and combat training for the US Army’s 160th Special operation Helicopter Battalion (Nighthawks). Greg teaches advanced weapons for Spartan Tactical a top rated weapons and tactical training company and also holds a position at La Rue Tactical. Greg is also a nationally accomplished three-gun shooter.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

it's possible at Whittington with those conditions, going 2550fps, which I think is possible with a 16" barrel, the dope to 1125 yards is about 39MOA, same rifle at sea level would need about 53MOA to make the same shot, so they are gaining a lot by being at Whittington and at that elevation.

Even if he is crossing transonic it's definitely doable to get two hits on target. I'm thinking he was shooting the steel range there, and big 10ft buffalo is at that range, so lobbing a round into it is within the realm of possibility and if I remember correctly there is a 9" circle painted on it, so maybe they launched the rounds at the buffalo, could have even been a lot of them and counted 2 hits in the circle. Or they could have put a plate out there ? But that is definitely the range to the buffalo on the steel silhouette range.

So, possible for sure... practical maybe. I know my 16" 308 AR10 hammers 1 MOA at 800 yards at sea level, one shot after another and not 2 lucky hits by any stretch. It's a shooter for sure. Shooting factory loads and nothing special, so take it for what's its worth.

 

[DT1]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I actually went and googled Greg Coker, here is his Bio:


Greg Coker is a retired US Army Special Ops combat aviator. He has planned and led scores of real world combat missions with significant tactical, operational, and strategic value during Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan with 100% success, including the first successful rescue of an American POW since World War II. He has achieved 3500 hours of accident free flying, over 2000 hours of NVG and 800 hours of Combat. He was instrumental in developing and implementing advanced firearms training programs and combat training for the US Army’s 160th Special operation Helicopter Battalion (Nighthawks). Greg teaches advanced weapons for Spartan Tactical a top rated weapons and tactical training company and also holds a position at La Rue Tactical. Greg is also a nationally accomplished three-gun shooter.

</div></div>

As impressive as this curriculum vitae is, it really doesn't do Greg's service record justice. I've known him for many years and shot with him competitively on a number of occasions. He is one stand up guy.

We can speculate about barrel lengths, muzzle velocities, range conditions all day. The bottom line is that if Greg said he got certain results from this rifle, I'd tend to believe him.

Dave

 

[sinister]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

I know and have shot with Greg. We deployed out of the same base in OIF.

He is one of the few people to have been shot down in a Little Bird with a shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile. After crash-landing he and his co-pilot had to fight with a broken back until a SAR crew arrived.

He knows how to shoot. Shooting here in New Mexico is mostly at high altitude.

One of my crews came back from Maertens Range at Fort Benning telling me USAMU Olympic gunsmith Glenn Sultzer, on a whim, set the scope on an M24 to 1100 yards; shouldered the rifle standing; and made a witnessed hit on an E-type silhouette with a single round of M118LR.

I've been around long enough to be able to separate tall tales from probability, or look at dubious claims with a jaded eye (especially second-hand accounts). There are some folks who are competent with firearms that you can be reasonably sure if they said it it's so, and if not they'll tell you, straight-up.

If you don't have the experience shooting at 1,000 to 1,300 yards with a 7.62 I don't think you have room to comment. I've made shots with a 16-inch carbine and low-power scopes at 500 that folks wouldn't believe until they saw it in the spotting scope and walked down to the targets with me.

Just my two cents.

 

[Sig685]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

This thread has seen some turns and twists, but once the OP was corrected to reflect more of the facts behind the claim, the whole thing pretty much became a non-event and nobody was disputing anything.

I see two takeaways from this thread: 1- When attributing claims of specific accomplishments, it is a great idea to have all relevant facts with the claim.

2- The answer to the main question in the OP: "In other words, does a shooter wishing to shoot at 1000 yards with regularity have a decent chance of success over time with at 16" barreled .308, given modern .308 loads?" is still NO.

HOWEVER, this greatly depends on your definition of success. For me, that is consistent great scores in F-class. What is your definition of success?

 

[300sniper]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

i can see all the ar15.comers buying this 16" model thinking they will be able to consistently hit a 9" plate at 1100+ yards

 

[poison123]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i can see all the ar15.comers buying this 16" model thinking they will be able to consistently hit a 9" plate at 1100+ yards

</div></div>

See you joke.....

 

[BIGGLEE0351]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">18" barrel to 1K. No problem believing it. 16" to 1.2K? I call it BS, unless they can prove it. BTW, keyholing doesn't count in my book. </div></div>
I witnessed 168 fggm keyholing at 1k out of an 18" bolt gun.

 

[300sniper]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i can see all the ar15.comers buying this 16" model thinking they will be able to consistently hit a 9" plate at 1100+ yards

</div></div>

See you joke..... </div></div>

i say it with a smile but i absolutely believe it. there was some talk of "nut swingers" a while back regarding a vendor on this site. i see it here a little bit but it is nothing like the guys on ar15.com when it comes to larue. larue could make a tactical turd and they would buy it up because it had his name on it

 

[Downzero]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BIGGLEE0351</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">18" barrel to 1K. No problem believing it. 16" to 1.2K? I call it BS, unless they can prove it. BTW, keyholing doesn't count in my book. </div></div>
I witnessed 168 fggm keyholing at 1k out of an 18" bolt gun. </div></div>

I'd bet you can't keep a 168 from keyholing at 1000 out of a 26" barrel.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

Isn't a keyholing tumbling 308 akin to throwing rocks?

 

[JFComfort]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BIGGLEE0351</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">18" barrel to 1K. No problem believing it. 16" to 1.2K? I call it BS, unless they can prove it. BTW, keyholing doesn't count in my book. </div></div>
I witnessed 168 fggm keyholing at 1k out of an 18" bolt gun. </div></div>

I'd bet you can't keep a 168 from keyholing at 1000 out of a 26" barrel. </div></div>

I shoot at 2600 ft and my 168 A-Max's are still hitting consistently and pointy end first @ 1,175 yards. They are being fired from a 25.6" barrel SSG 69

 

[Sig685]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

The 168gr A-Max does not seem to suffer the transonic tumble dance like the 168gr SMK. The SMK is a very nice, accurate bullet up to 600 yards or more, but it's not made for 1000 yards.

I've shot plenty of 168gr A-Max, and it's also a very nice bullet, just not a 1000 yard bullet but that's because of its low BC, not because it tumbles going transonic.

 

[RussW1911]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 168gr A-Max does not seem to suffer the transonic tumble dance like the 168gr SMK. The SMK is a very nice, accurate bullet up to 600 yards or more, but it's not made for 1000 yards.

I've shot plenty of 168gr A-Max, and it's also a very nice bullet, just not a 1000 yard bullet but that's because of its low BC, not because it tumbles going transonic. </div></div>

Depends on where your at. In these parts, the 168 makes the trip to 1000 with nary a problem.

These blanket statements that keep getting thrown around make even an accomplished, known shooter, seem uneducated and naive at best.

 

[Sig685]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911 ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Depends on where your at. In these parts, the 168 makes the trip to 1000 with nary a problem.

These blanket statements that keep getting thrown around make even an accomplished, known shooter, seem uneducated and naive at best. </div></div>

It would appear that you have totally missed the great lesson on this thread. I actually had the words "depending on the elevation" in my post above, but I elected to take them out to further reinforce the lesson.

We saw here the perfect example of an outlandish claim turning out to be possible simply because the event took place in a very specific and unusual setting; in this case the elevation was over 6700ASL. However, as we saw, it is a very simple thing to ignore this little fact so the claim became "hitting regularly at 1200 yards with a 16 inch barrel."

Reducing the distance to 1100 yards meant very little to me, cranking up the elevation to 6700ASL, made a HUGE difference. I don't care that the 168gr SMK will not tumble at 6700ASL, but I do know that it will do so at lower elevations where most people live. So, when some make the claim the 168gr SMK is GTG at 1000 yards above 5000ASL, how long will it be before the "above 5000ASL" gets forgotten? I can just see somebody showing up at a match at low elevation and keyholing like crazy because I have seen it. ("But it worked so well at my home range in (insert high elevation place.)"

So, continue using your little easily forgotten caveats, I will maintain that 168gr SMK is a fine accurate bullet, just not a 1000 yard bullet. I will add there are better bullets for the 1000 yard range, at any elevation.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911 ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 168gr A-Max does not seem to suffer the transonic tumble dance like the 168gr SMK. The SMK is a very nice, accurate bullet up to 600 yards or more, but it's not made for 1000 yards.

I've shot plenty of 168gr A-Max, and it's also a very nice bullet, just not a 1000 yard bullet but that's because of its low BC, not because it tumbles going transonic. </div></div>

Depends on where your at. In these parts, the 168 makes the trip to 1000 with nary a problem.

These blanket statements that keep getting thrown around make even an accomplished, known shooter, seem uneducated and naive at best. </div></div>

+1

I was thinking the same thing

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

Its a common misconception that all bullets tumble when then go transonic. It isn't the case. The 168 SMK is know for that, but many make the transistion just fine.

Jerry Treo (Mysticplayer) shot his .223 to a mile. The bullets were going subsonic in flight.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-1.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4yfajXoiqg

 

[JFComfort]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

Sig685, What do you recommend for an any alt .308 F T/R load? I know your an accomplished F-Class shooter so if its good for F-Class it should be good all around. Thanks in advance!

 

[Downzero]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911 ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These blanket statements that keep getting thrown around make even an accomplished, known shooter, seem uneducated and naive at best. </div></div>

I think it's even more foolish to say that you're going to use the wrong tool for the job. When there are higher BC bullets out there that have better downrange performance, it just makes no difference to me to polish a turd.

It's your rifle and you can do what you want with it, but if "naivity" is the reason I am using a bullet that is still supersonic to hit at long ranges, then I'll continue being uneducated and naive, as long as the bullets are hitting the target.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I shoot at 2600 ft and my 168 A-Max's are still hitting consistently and pointy end first @ 1,175 yards. They are being fired from a 25.6" barrel SSG 69 </div></div>

Good for you. Come down to 400 feet and let's see how they do--and you have a pretty long barrel for a .308.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'll continue being uneducated and naive, as long as the bullets are hitting the target.</div></div>

Bullets are hitting the target, thats why I know at my alt I'm good to 1,175 before I have to switch to .300 WM. I'm sure I can hit further with my .308 but anyone one will eventually hit something if you shoot at it enough times.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good for you. Come down to 400 feet and let's see how they do--and you have a pretty long barrel for a .308. </div></div>

I'll be visiting famly in CA so I'll let you know! We will be shooting at about 200 ft ASL

 

[RussW1911]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

I never said I used the 168, just made a correction or addition to the above post.

 

[Sig685]

Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sig685, What do you recommend for an any alt .308 F T/R load? I know your an accomplished F-Class shooter so <span style="font-weight: bold">if its good for F-Class it should be good all around</span>. Thanks in advance! </div></div>

Now, that is one blanket statement this is wrong.

The load (and rifle) I use in F-Class is designed to keep my bullet above Mach 1.2 at 1000 yards. I use a heavy bullet in a very long barrel; 180gr JLK from a 32 inch barrel. The load is a lot of Varget, but not a maximum load, thanks to the long barrel.

For .223 at 1000 yards, I use an 80gr JLK from a 26 inch barrel with a max load of Varget.