16.5" Carbon or Steel-seeking input

[GLG20]

I'm looking to purchase a 16.5" .308 barrel to be run suppressed and used as a steel plinker, and occasionally as a compact tree stand hunting rifle.

My original thought was to go with a carbon barrel to have a thick profile for the threaded end while also being light. However, after doing some reading, I'm wondering if I should just go with a steel barrel since it's so short, perhaps in a Med. Palma profile.

What would you do if you were building such a rifle? Wondering how much real world weight savings there would be in such a short config, and if the extra expense for carbon would be worth it.

Also, what is the thinnest non-sporter profile steel barrel would you run with a suppressor on a short barrel?

 

[Ahogue]

For me its going to depend kinda on price im currently going to be doing a 16in 6.5cm and there are a few reasons im going steal even though im a carbon slut

Price, weight - black collar arms has savage prefit 16in barrels 308 included that are spiral fluted and a bit under 3lbs for $400 a ready to ship barrel i dont have to wait on thats what im going with

 

[wind gypsy]

IMO it would be a waste of money to get carbon for such a short barrel and i trust gunsmiths who say they have more duds with carbons than steel barrels.

You can go on any barrel manufacturers website to get contour dimensions and calculate muzzle diameter at a given length. You can then also google "barrel weight calculator" and figure out what each would weigh. Med palma would be fine but you can go quite a bit lighter at that length and still have ample diameter for muzzle threads. I have a Benchmark #4 sporter that is 0.725" @ 18" where I chopped it. A benchmark #3 sporter would be 0.7125" @ 16.5". A bartlein 2b would put you around 0.722" at 16.5". You could go even lighter on contour if you went with 9/16" muzzle threads but the above options will be pretty light with a 16.5" barrel.

Many gunsmiths seem to recommend 0.725" min muzzle diameter for 5/8" threads but it seems common for factory rifles to still be threaded with a bit less than that. The seekins havak line is one that uses 0.70" muzzle diameter with 5/8" threads.

 

[FuhQ]

I'm looking to purchase a 16.5" .308 barrel to be run suppressed and used as a steel plinker, and occasionally as a compact tree stand hunting rifle.

My original thought was to go with a carbon barrel to have a thick profile for the threaded end while also being light. However, after doing some reading, I'm wondering if I should just go with a steel barrel since it's so short, perhaps in a Med. Palma profile.

What would you do if you were building such a rifle? Wondering how much real world weight savings there would be in such a short config, and if the extra expense for carbon would be worth it.

Also, what is the thinnest non-sporter profile steel barrel would you run with a suppressor on a short barrel?

If you can afford to go carbon, go carbon Sendero, or Bull/Target profile.

 

[HerCoStarNTheBeaverPictur]

I’m no expert but I do like carbon barrels. That said, I go with steel for anything under 18” just because the price to weight savings doesn’t make sense to me

 

[GLG20]

IMO it would be a waste of money to get carbon for such a short barrel and i trust gunsmiths who say they have more duds with carbons than steel barrels.

You can go on any barrel manufacturers website to get contour dimensions and calculate muzzle diameter at a given length. You can then also google "barrel weight calculator" and figure out what each would weigh. Med palma would be fine but you can go quite a bit lighter at that length and still have ample diameter for muzzle threads. I have a Benchmark #4 sporter that is 0.725" @ 18" where I chopped it. A benchmark #3 sporter would be 0.7125" @ 16.5". A bartlein 2b would put you around 0.722" at 16.5". You could go even lighter on contour if you went with 9/16" muzzle threads but the above options will be pretty light with a 16.5" barrel.

Many gunsmiths seem to recommend 0.725" min muzzle diameter for 5/8" threads but it seems common for factory rifles to still be threaded with a bit less than that. The seekins havak line is one that uses 0.70" muzzle diameter with 5/8" threads.

Wasn't aware there were weight calculators. I will look into that. I've seen "weight per inch" stats but always thought that can't be a good way to figure it out, since I'm keeping the fat end and chopping off the skinny end.

 

[noremorse92]

I have an an 18 inch stainless varmint contour on my tikka and the entire rifle with optic rings and mag is 9 lbs. Non fluted.

Carbon barrels are just to look cool for the internet. If you want to save weight get the steel barrel fluted, go for a lighter profile and or economize weight in your stock and optic setup.

 

[GLG20]

I have an an 18 inch stainless varmint contour on my tikka and the entire rifle with optic rings and mag is 9 lbs. Non fluted.

Carbon barrels are just to look cool for the internet. If you want to save weight get the steel barrel fluted, go for a lighter profile and or economize weight in your stock and optic setup.

Was just looking at weights savings for fluting tonight on LRI's site. Not sure if the cost is worth the savings in a 16.5 or 18" barrel. Perhaps it is.

 

[noremorse92]

Was just looking at weights savings for fluting tonight on LRI's site. Not sure if the cost is worth the savings in a 16.5 or 18" barrel. Perhaps it is.

I decided against it personally. Ammo trumps a few ounces shaved imo

 

[GLG20]

IMO it would be a waste of money to get carbon for such a short barrel and i trust gunsmiths who say they have more duds with carbons than steel barrels.

You can go on any barrel manufacturers website to get contour dimensions and calculate muzzle diameter at a given length. You can then also google "barrel weight calculator" and figure out what each would weigh. Med palma would be fine but you can go quite a bit lighter at that length and still have ample diameter for muzzle threads. I have a Benchmark #4 sporter that is 0.725" @ 18" where I chopped it. A benchmark #3 sporter would be 0.7125" @ 16.5". A bartlein 2b would put you around 0.722" at 16.5". You could go even lighter on contour if you went with 9/16" muzzle threads but the above options will be pretty light with a 16.5" barrel.

Many gunsmiths seem to recommend 0.725" min muzzle diameter for 5/8" threads but it seems common for factory rifles to still be threaded with a bit less than that. The seekins havak line is one that uses 0.70" muzzle diameter with 5/8" threads.

Thank you. This is great information.

If 0.725"is minimum muzzle diameter for 5/8" threads, what do you think is optimum?

In other words, what would be best for repeatable accuracy with a nearly 13 oz. can hanging on the end? Bartlein website says they suggest Medium Palma as the thinnest contour they recommend for suppressors, but I would think they mean for a full length barrel. not a 16.5 or 18" barrel. That would be .820 but at the end of a 30" tube.

 

[wind gypsy]

Thank you. This is great information.

If 0.725"is minimum muzzle diameter for 5/8" threads, what do you think is optimum?

In other words, what would be best for repeatable accuracy with a nearly 13 oz. can hanging on the end? Bartlein website says they suggest Medium Palma as the thinnest contour they recommend for suppressors, but I would think they mean for a full length barrel. not a 16.5 or 18" barrel. That would be .820 but at the end of a 30" tube.

I think that benchmark #4 contour I mentioned earlier is about perfect for a weight conscious shorty barrel. It tapers down in front of the breech a little faster than a bartlein 2b but has a slightly slower taper after so it keeps enough thickness for the muzzle. I wouldn't be afraid to throw that can on a lighter profile yet but you might have to go 9/16" threads or have a custom contour that leaves some meat on the muzzle.

	diameter 6" from breech	diameter @ 26"
Bartlein 2b contour	0.85​	0.63​
Benchmark #4 contour	0.825​	0.65​

 

[srt-4_uk]

If you can afford to go carbon, go carbon Sendero, or Bull/Target profile.

What's the reasoning behind that recommendation?

 

[FuhQ]

What's the reasoning behind that recommendation?

Lighter weight, greater rigidity, less susceptible to heat, POI, and harmonic shift with and without a can on the end. The barrels are all 416r steel, just milled down and tension pressure wrapped in carbon, so barrel life will be the exact same, because the core of them is the same. The only disadvantage is the cost. If you want the rigidity and performance of a much heavier barrel in a noticeably lighter package, carbon wrapped is the way to go, compared to dropping contour sizes on steel blanks, which will increase flex and whip.

 

[srt-4_uk]

I meant those 2 profiles vs other carbon profiles.

 

[FuhQ]

I meant those 2 profiles vs other carbon profiles.

Thicker carbon (more layers) on top of the steel core, more rigidity for less likelihood of flex, absorbs and dissipates more heat (just like how bull barrels work over sporter barrels). It was just a suggestion. He can take it, or leave it. He seemed interested in all avenues, so I was bringing that topic up, incase it was going to go overlooked. A lot of time people just ask about carbon vs. steel, and don't get into the discussion of barrel profiles.

 

[wind gypsy]

Lighter weight, greater rigidity, less susceptible to heat, POI, and harmonic shift with and without a can on the end. The barrels are all 416r steel, just milled down and tension pressure wrapped in carbon, so barrel life will be the exact same, because the core of them is the same. The only disadvantage is the cost. If you want the rigidity and performance of a much heavier barrel in a noticeably lighter package, carbon wrapped is the way to go, compared to dropping contour sizes on steel blanks, which will increase flex and whip.

Has there been a study/measurements proving that carbon barrels are actually stiffer than a steel barrel of the same weight? The only one I've seen referenced was Alex wheeler measuring deflection of a carbon barrel and that of a similar weight steel barrel and they were functionally the same.

 

[Mr. F]

I went Carbon on a M24 Profile 6.5 Creed 26", just passed 2k rounds thru on the single CF i own.

Shoots extremely tight with 130 VLDs and also walks the most out of the pile of barrels i have when it gets hot. Take the rigidity claims with a grain of salt, in practice its not uncommon for them to wander under a long string.

If that's not a requirement they can be as accurate as anything else out there.

 

[FuhQ]

Has there been a study/measurements proving that carbon barrels are actually stiffer than a steel barrel of the same weight? The only one I've seen referenced was Alex wheeler measuring deflection of a carbon barrel and that of a similar weight steel barrel and they were functionally the same.

Well, scientifically, carbon is stiffer than steel, that's a well-known fact. That's a fairly anecdotal and remedial test...Of course deflection could be very similar...Small hole & light bullet, big amount of material around both of them... What do you expect to happen? The obvious. Of course they'll be similar. But go hang about 1.5-2 lbs. off the end of it and shoot 10-20 shots and watch the steel barrel's POI shift more due to the greater flexibility of the steel with heat. Kind of like a sporter barrel hunting rifle vs. bull barrel target rifle.

Found this video interesting... Some of you might, as well... 1,000 rounds rapid fire through a carbon fiber barreled bolt-action, and then cut it open at the end to inspect it.

 

[wind gypsy]

Well, scientifically, carbon is stiffer than steel, that's a well-known fact. That's a fairly anecdotal and remedial test...Of course deflection could be very similar...Small hole & light bullet, big amount of material around both of them... What do you expect to happen? The obvious. Of course they'll be similar. But go hang about 1.5-2 lbs. off the end of it and shoot 10-20 shots and watch the steel barrel's POI shift more due to the greater flexibility of the steel with heat. Kind of like a sporter barrel hunting rifle vs. bull barrel target rifle.

View attachment 8266994

Found this video interesting... Some of you might, as well... 1,000 rounds rapid fire through a carbon fiber barreled bolt-action, and then cut it open at the end to inspect it.

I don't have a large enough sample size to make solid conclusions but the only barrel i've had start walking like that was a carbon and it didn't take 10 shots for it happen. Haven't seen the same with decent sporter contour steel barrels with the same can on the end.

No denying carbon is stiffer than steel for it's weight. To me it just seems that wrapping a thin steel liner in carbon is more likely to cause issues than solve them. I don't have a large enough sample size (1 hells canyon, 1 bartlein) in carbons to know but I trust smiths who've said they see more issues than benefits.

 

[1911Shootist]

Carbon barrel marketing is almost entirely based on the attributes of the fiber along its length. They conveniently neglect that in the construction of a barrel, with a circumferential / axial filament winding process, those properties are now perpendicular to the direction they would be most beneficial for certain attributes, namely axial stiffness and radial temperature dissipation. Also neglected is that the matrix makes up most of the mass of the composite and the thermal conductivity of those epoxy resins are extremely low, and the cross linking that happens during curing causes shrinkage that negatively effects axial stiffness.

I went to school for composites, I love most things carbon fiber, I would love to love carbon barrels. But in the end, they’re just a cool looking barrel.

 

[FuhQ]

Carbon barrel marketing is almost entirely based on the attributes of the fiber along its length. They conveniently neglect that in the construction of a barrel, with a circumferential / axial filament winding process, those properties are now perpendicular to the direction they would be most beneficial for certain attributes, namely axial stiffness and radial temperature dissipation. Also neglected is that the matrix makes up most of the mass of the composite and the thermal conductivity of those epoxy resins are extremely low, and the cross linking that happens during curing causes shrinkage that negatively effects axial stiffness.

I went to school for composites, I love most things carbon fiber, I would love to love carbon barrels. But in the end, they’re just a cool looking barrel.

Not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious to hear why Nomex-lined CF weave blankets, and CF engine parts are ok for aircraft, turbos, turbines, and Formula1 engines that experience extreme heat, but it's not ok for a low-temperature steel barrel on a bolt-action rifle that stays under 200ºF ?

Now, the epoxy resins being low-temp is a factor I have considered, but I figured these barrel companies would have perfected a high-temp compound by now for heat resilience. I have not experienced any delaminating on any barrels due to heat, but I also don't shoot more than 5-10 rounds in a string to save throat and leade life, but all 5 of my CA barrels have been great as far as under heat maintaining POI, even with a can on the end. I've had a Proof blank in the closet for years, but haven't had the need to spin it up yet. Once the steel Sendero contour barrel on my custom .25-06 AI goes south, it will be getting the Proof barrel (26" FL, 7.5" twist).

 

[1911Shootist]

I never said they couldn’t handle the heat, they’re just shitty thermal conductors.

If the goal is to get heat away from the bore, putting an insulating layer around the steel is not beneficial.

 

[FuhQ]

I never said they couldn’t handle the heat, they’re just shitty thermal conductors.

If the goal is to get heat away from the bore, putting an insulating layer around the steel is not beneficial.

Well...Obviously. But would you say it's a better thermal conductor than...More steel (equal contour specs, CF vs. steel)?

 

[1911Shootist]

No, it is far worse than steel.

Next time you’re out hunting in the cold with a carbon barrel, take notice of how much colder the steel parts feel when compared to touching the carbon fiber components. What you’re feeling isn’t temperature, it’s thermal conductivity. The steel robs heat from your hand faster than the composite, so it feels colder, even though they are the same temperature.

This is the same reason why composite stocks and handguards are preferred for cold weather hunting.

And it’s also the reason pepperoni on a pizza burns the roof of your mouth but the rest of the pizza doesn’t. Same temperature, just certain substances have a higher specific heat.

 

[mwiggi]

Just picked up this 6.5cm Tikka with a Bartlein #4 contour CF barrel. I rarely shoot more than 5-10 rounds at a time and just wanted something lightweight to take hunting. But I couldn’t be happier with it.

 

[GLG20]

Just picked up this 6.5cm Tikka with a Bartlein #4 contour CF barrel. I rarely shoot more than 5-10 rounds at a time and just wanted something lightweight to take hunting. But I couldn’t be happier with it.

Good looking rig. Do you know what it weighs in at?

 

[mwiggi]

Good looking rig. Do you know what it weighs in at?

Just got it together this weekend, but I’ll check when I get home.

Could have shaved off a couple pounds by not using such a heavy scope, but it’s light compared to my Tikka CTR in a Bravo.

 

[GLG20]

Just got it together this weekend, but I’ll check when I get home.

Could have shaved off a couple pounds by not using such a heavy scope, but it’s light compared to my Tikka CTR in a Bravo.

Tough to find a full-featured, and robust, lightweight scope, so I look at it differently now. Shave weight elsewhere so you don't have to skimp on the optics or give up the features you want.

What stock and ARCA rail is that?

 

[mwiggi]

Tough to find a full-featured, and robust, lightweight scope, so I look at it differently now. Shave weight elsewhere so you don't have to skimp on the optics or give up the features you want.

What stock and ARCA rail is that?

Really looked into the Razor LHT, but read a thread about them losing zero when dropped. Don’t need anything like that with a hunting rifle so went with the t6xi and I’m happy.

It’s an Iota Eko carbon wrapped and an 8” Area 419 rail. Ordered the Iota for 50% off on Midway and the rear pillar was about a tenth of an inch off from where it should have been. Iota agreed to let me change the color and inlet of the stock free of charge and took about 7 weeks to get the replacement stock. So far I really like the stock and have less than $400 in it.

Bought the action here and waited until I found decent deals to buy anything else needed. Got the t6xi for $1200 and Hawkins lightweight for $130. Have under $4k in it, including scope and suppressor that’s not approved yet.

Proud to have a “custom” rifle that didn’t cost double that without skipping on any features. Well asides from the stock, but originally planned to buy a manners if I didn’t like the Iota, but it fits me perfectly, has pillars and a thumb rest, so I doubt I’d get rid of it.

 

[GLG20]

Really looked into the Razor LHT, but read a thread about them losing zero when dropped. Don’t need anything like that with a hunting rifle so went with the t6xi and I’m happy.

It’s an Iota Eko carbon wrapped and an 8” Area 419 rail. Ordered the Iota for 50% off on Midway and the rear pillar was about a tenth of an inch off from where it should have been. Iota agreed to let me change the color and inlet of the stock free of charge and took about 7 weeks to get the replacement stock. So far I really like the stock and have less than $400 in it.

Bought the action here and waited until I found decent deals to buy anything else needed. Got the t6xi for $1200 and Hawkins lightweight for $130. Have under $4k in it, including scope and suppressor that’s not approved yet.

Proud to have a “custom” rifle that didn’t cost double that without skipping on any features. Well asides from the stock, but originally planned to buy a manners if I didn’t like the Iota, but it fits me perfectly, has pillars and a thumb rest, so I doubt I’d get rid of it.

Nicely done. It's very satisfying to have some patience and make good deals.

 

[Dogsniper]

Med sporter. Still thread it. Light. Cheaper.

 

[mwiggi]

Good looking rig. Do you know what it weighs in at?

Weighs 9.2 pounds as pictured without the bipod.