.17 HMR - fps all over the place

[nagantguy]

If anyone has seen my varmint posts here over the last few years you’ll know that most of my varmint kills last 2-3 years has been with a .17 hmr . 17 grain Vam CCI fps on box is 2550.
have a case -500 rounds bought pre Covid lot number ending in 049.
The rifle is a a budget Savage 93R17. A budget rifle but accurate and dependable and I don’t cry when it gets bounced on a tractor or in a truck bed .

Anyhow over years I’ve have at various times chrono’d this load - 2550 is box muzzle velocity- I’ve routinely got fps as high as 2730- almost always above 2550, almost always above 2650. A 100 fps gain is a good thing - and some rifles I’ve heard can be slightly faster than others whatever .
The problem arises in the lows 2410 is the lowest I’ve actually chronographed in this lot .
This accounts for - 3-4 stellar accurate shots and then a fifth shot can be a complete miss .
I know CCI loads nearly very one’s flavor of .17 or at least their own , federalist and Hornady and Remingtons .
Winchester/Browning iOS made by Winchester according to some .
PMC and Sellier and Bellot also load .17 but I have never seen any .
Anyone run a flavor of .17 that doesn’t have a possible 300 something fps variation possible in a single box ?
Or is this just the nature of rimfire?

 

[Fig]

I think it's not just the nature of rimfire (that's part of it), but that this nature gets worse and worse the faster and farther you try to go. Rimfire is more consistent at that bottom end, which is why most competitors shoot subs. Not good at all for hunting, but much more consistent for hitting a target and it doesn't matter that they've got no horsepower.

The reprieve, but my way of thinking anyway, is that once you hit speeds that will send that .17 fast enough and flat shooting enough (which it does) those wide variations don't matter at reasonable ranges. Like a .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, or .257 WBM, these ultra-fast rounds are NOT long-range rounds. The bullets just aren't heavy enough and don't have a high enough BC to be good at range even with all that speed. They're flat shooting medium range rounds that, for me at least, get too inaccurate beyond 600 yards, but inside that they're pretty good because of how flat they shoot. So too is a .17 not really getting you any more range than a .22 even with all that speed, but it is giving you a lot of energy hitting a small critter. To me the .17 is a 100 yard rifle, and beyond that it starts to fall apart, whereas a sub-sonic, 40gr, .22 with a fraction of the energy can be pretty accurate beyond 300 yards (albeit very susceptible to wind). Some guys shoot HV, but I find better results with subs.

If you want distance, you need consistency of speed, and high BC. Those things go together with heavy, long bullets, and are the opposite of the .17. I think you are just pushing the round beyond reasonable distances, and that your high SD/ES is par for the course. It's a short-range round that delivers a lot of energy because of its speed, and at shorter ranges all that SD/ES doesn't matter that much. At least that's my view of it.

 

[nagantguy]

Agree on most all your points - and I do t typically use the .17 for increasing distance- not much anyhow over .22 lr but it is nice that it offers more insurance at distance- longest kill shot so far has been a wood Chuck at 176 yards - he was standing tall facing away almost no wind and I had a barn window as a rest put my 180 yard dope in and bang flop . But that’s not the norm at all for how I use it - 30-50 yards is the mean - around equipment barns even livestock . And I put the .223 and the 22.250 up because I found I enjoyed sneaking down a tree line and get with g 50-69 yards of virmin and also found that with close snap shooting which happens often the 17 being lighter and shorter easy easier and terminal effects on rodents was more than adequate close in .
Just wish there was a more efficient/ consistent rimfire option .

This femal for was at the hatchery building last Saturday- at 45 yards the 17 is plenty for fox sized game - that is the exit hole - another anomaly with the 17- violent disruption of the projectile within inches or every once in a while blows straight threw and leaves a huge exit wound .
You could be right - it’s small enough moving fast enough that it’s right on the edge of performance envelope and there is not only anomalies in loading/fps but anomalies in projectiles themselves -

 

[Fig]

17 HMR Ballistics Chart

Complete 17 HMR ballistics chart with muzzle energy figures and muzzle velocity out to 200 yards. Hornady Ammunition comparison. 17 HMR bullet drop chart compares multiple Hornady cartridges actual bullet drop at various distances out to 200 yards. Must Have 17 HMR ballistics charts!

www.mcarbo.com

Suckers are slowing down FAST.

For comparison: the 20gr .17hmr has a .125 BC
the 40gr .22lr has a .140 BC


I was going to say in my first reply it's a 100 yard gun, but obviously in your hands you can beat that by a wide margin.
You're still Supersonic to 200 yards, and hitting with over 100lbs of force, however, true to your experience, that's got to be about the extreme range for the .17HMR either hunting or target shooting, as it's dropping fast at that point and going to completely fall apart beyond that. I don't know from experience, but looking at the maths, I would guess that it's transonic stability is complete dog shit, and that little bullet will completely knuckleball as soon as it drops below 1,125fps which is right past 200.

You're big swings in speed would matter out at 200 yards, but not much at all inside 100. I would also guess that you're not running a turret scope and are holding over. Inside that 100 it totally shines though, and I totally get why a varminter would like a handy little .17.

My best shot on a woodchuck was with a Glock 17 out of the sunroof of a Geo Tracker, in an Amish hay field in Ohio, circa 1993. At about 50 yards I held a little over and hit him right in the neck. The eyes of the guy driving the car got as big as saucers. It was a lucky shot, but I played it cool.

 

[nagantguy]

I’m familiar with those charts (part of my mainia) after about 175 and for sure past 200 it does fall apart - I remember back when it first made the scene it was billed as a true 300 yard coyote round - no one bought that and that certainly isn’t the belief today.
Without going to another cartridge or a center fire I’d like to master this little .17 because it’s the easy button - even today 50 rounds for under $20. And it delivers especially under 100 and isn’t over kill for ground squirrels or red squirrels and it’s fun .
I’m not hindered in any way by it being a sub 200 yard cartridge- I would like consistency and repeatability at 0-100. If the fps is 2410 or 2730 I’d like that to be a constant and if the Vmax projectiles explode violently inside 2-4 inches or they go 10 inches and tumble and leave a gaping exit - just pick one and make it work at advertised FPS .

I can get .22 mag to tumble at about 5-6 inches and continue out - in animals and gel no matter projectile- I just can’t get .22 WRM to shoot worth a shit - been down that road a few times left a trail of cash and tears behind me .
I’d love to see some “match” type loads in the .17.

 

[mrmarklin]

The 17HMR is now over 20 years old. I think that the tooling they use to make the ammo is wearing out, and that, while within spec, the ammo is not as consistent as it was years ago. I have noticed that my 100 yard groups are not as tight as they were years ago.
Nevertheless, the round is awesome for ground squirrels.

 

[nagantguy]

2002 so 23 years - still really just an infant in cartridge terms . I’d love to see a “match” grade type of ammo with less than a 300 fps variation possible from shot to shot .
Even if it meant a slower loading - 22-2400 fps with the 17 grain vmax but you could count on standard deviations in the single or double digits.
I’d love to be able to depend on head shots at 75-100 yards and consistent sub moa groups - not that odd 2400 round that isn’t even in the same zip code as the first 4 shots . If my hand loads ever exhibited a thing that that type deviation I’d pull them all and seriously question my skills , techniques and components.
With all that being said again - I fucking love the .17 and it checks anLOT of my boxes on thinning varmints and predators on the farm .

 

[justin amateur]

There are only 2 manufacturers of 17hmr cartridges,
CCI and Winchester. Winchester gets relabeled as Browning,
every other brand is relabeled CCI. Neither CCI or Winchester
have the desire to decrease their profits by increasing quality control.
Loose bullets, split necks, angled bullet seating, deformed tips,
hefty variations in primer and powder amounts are not unusual.
CCI is the sole company left manufacturing the 17hm2, same issues.
For varminting they are adequate. Not intended or manufactured for precision shooting.
Offhand, meat spray, center of critter they work.
Expect a few problems. Cheaper than centerfire.

 

[nagantguy]

There are only 2 manufacturers of 17hmr cartridges,
CCI and Winchester. Winchester gets relabeled as Browning,
every other brand is relabeled CCI. Neither CCI or Winchester
have the desire to decrease their profits by increasing quality control.
Loose bullets, split necks, angled bullet seating, deformed tips,
hefty variations in primer and powder amounts are not unusual.
CCI is the sole company left manufacturing the 17hm2, same issues.
For varminting they are adequate. Not intended or manufactured for precision shooting.
Offhand, meat spray, center of critter they work.
Expect a few problems. Cheaper than centerfire.

Yep any flavor ya want as long as it’s made by cci or Winchester.
I’d even deal with some flyers now and then the poof cat fart 2400 fps loads out of no where or the ones going over 2700 that come apart on a blade of grass really grind my ass . Please as the manufacturer try to put at least the same amount of priming compound and powder in each one - at least try as hard as I do while hand loading to get some consistency

 

[Quackaddict]

The 17HMR is now over 20 years old. I think that the tooling they use to make the ammo is wearing out, and that, while within spec, the ammo is not as consistent as it was years ago. I have noticed that my 100 yard groups are not as tight as they were years ago.
Nevertheless, the round is awesome for ground squirrels.

Gotta be something, I have noticed my Anschutz is far less accurate than I remember from years past.

I’d love to see a match ammo for the HMR as well, but I’m sure that’s nothing more than a pipe dream.

Still grenades pigeon like nothing else!