178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

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ZincChloride

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Aug 3, 2009
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#1
Hi, I just finished building (for now) a sniper rifle. I first bought a Rem. SPS Tact. 20" Barrel @ 1 in 10" Twist. They don't seem to make this one anymore. I did change the stock to a H&S Precission. The trigger to a Jewel @ 2 lbs. and added a Harris BR bipod, some kind of od green sling that's not too comfortable (don't use it really anyway)... and a 8.5-25 X 50 Extended Range/ front focal/ tact. recticle. Leupold scope with a 4" extention thing. Oh, and a Yankee Hill supressor.
So far I'm using Hornady match cases, 178gr AMAX, and IMR 4064. I've been using defferent primers for each batch that I load. I'm working on 45.0 to 45.4 grains of powder. I think it's going to be 45.2 or 45.3 though. I'm getting <1" groups at 100yds. but I'm not happy with that at all. Today I put two shots in one hole (really it looked like I only shot once.) ... then the next shot was 2" to the left. I was using some crappy casings. R P ?
Does anyone have any advise to get those 5 shots in one hole?
 
#2
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

I never knew Rem made the SPS 308 in a 1:10. I know the Model 7 has a 1:10. How old is your rifle? You might be surprised if you shoot it at 200yds. Sometimes those 178's need a little further to fully stabilize.Especially ina 1:12. Just a thought, YMMV. Buy the way, I shoot 178's in my 1:10 model seven. You are correct to develop the load down to the 10th's of a grain. Mine was very sensitive to the charge weight.
Good luck.
Rob
 
#3
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 178AMAX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Does anyone have any advise to get those 5 shots in one hole? </div></div>

Welcome to the addiction
grin.gif

My best advise
 
#4
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

Once you achieve it at 100, you will want it at 200!

I always seemed to think that if I can shoot BR sized groups on occasion, the only variables keeping me from shooting like that all the time were myself, and the handloads.

So I get crazy meticulous with handloads. You can take "crappy R-P" brass - your words, not mine... and get excellent accuracy with uniforming, deburring and sorting cases.

Why do you think Lapua, Norma and Nosler are so expensive?
Well, aside from the fact that the brass is made from some sort of optimum alloy, it already has all this shit done...

From a reloading for accuracy aspect, dont change more than one thing at a time. Changing loads and primers at the same time wont show you anything, other than a stumbling into accuracy.
Keep record on everything and be meticulous.
 
#5
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

A different powder to think about would be H4350 as well. I shoot the 178's in my 30-06, they don't seem to be overly sensitive to seating depth (I shoot a 10 thou "jump") but it's pretty picky for charge weight. There's a decent (1/4") difference between 57.2gr and my picked load of 57.0 gr.
 
#6
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

Bro- You are using a barreled action from a $500 factory rifle. One hole groups might be asking a bit much.
 
#7
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bro- You are using a barreled action from a $500 factory rifle. One hole groups might be asking a bit much. </div></div>

I couldnt have said it better myself, a cheap rifle, while it will shoot ok (about 1moa) will struggle to get down to screamer groups. Thats why the true precision stuff is so expensive, it is machined to more exact tolerances. If it is any help my Remmy 700 police .308 worked best with Lapua brass, 168gr Sierra Matchkings, loaded .20 off the lands, 2620 fps, it shot just under 1moa out to 600m. I changed to to a TRG and the group sizes shrank to half that of the Remmy with no more effort on my behalf. Good Luck.
 
#10
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

I would do the following:

Check crown VERY carefully, redo if not perfect.

Bed the rifle

Shoot without the suppressor (to eliminate one variable)

Work up different loads (try different powder and bullets)

You should be able to make a 3/4" gun out of what you have, most start shooting better after 500 rounds or so as the bbl slicks up.

HTH,
HB
 
#11
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

A round that suddenly goes 2" in any direction when you've already put 2 in the same hole is most likely something you did. When you do that, put more rounds in the group and see where they land. If they go back into the rest of the group, then you pulled that shot that went out of the group.

I was just out yesterday and had loaded up some 178 amax's for the first time for my Savage and of the 4 loads that I tested just to see how they performed to get a baseline for fine tuning, 3 groups were .43" 1 was .50".

Like others have said on here, you can't take the rifle you have an expect super tiny groups every time your out. You may get them once in a while, but anything at or under 1MOA is good, 1/2 is great. Holding 1/4moa @ 100m consistently for many groups, and over many days, and different conditions requires either a machine rest, or a lot of skill. Don't give up your pursuit of perfection in your reloaded ammunition, just don't expect Ferrari performance from a turbo Miata.

Branden
 
#12
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A different powder to think about would be H4350 as well. I shoot the 178's in my 30-06, they don't seem to be overly sensitive to seating depth (I shoot a 10 thou "jump") but it's pretty picky for charge weight. There's a decent (1/4") difference between 57.2gr and my picked load of 57.0 gr.

</div></div>

I would think that 4350 would be way too slow in a 20" barrel to get any decent velocity. Not sure though...........

Keith
 
#13
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I would think that 4350 would be way too slow in a 20" barrel to get any decent velocity. Not sure though...........

Keith </div></div>

It might be, and I thought the same thing for RL-22 and 178's from my 06 but I tried and was pleasantly surprised for my efforts. $25 for some powder isn't too bad when you're digging for a good load.


 
#14
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

There's nothing wrong with your rifle. Learn to shoot.

Fancy stocks, scopes, and bullets won't steer your crosshairs to the target. It's not your brass cases or anything about your rifle. It's you.
 
#15
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

What about rear rest? I didn't read you mentioning anything about it. You can try "Doggonegood" rear field rest with your HS precision stock and bipod. It should improve your groups some.

Or shoot using a benchrest and rear bag.

Also trying annealing your cases. That should help reduce the occasional flier.

Or rebarreling your rifle with a cut rifle 1 in 12, in 11, or 10 barrel while making sure the action is properly bedded.

Or you can try 175 Sierra Matchkings instead. I've always found the AMAX to be rather charge sensitive. The Sierra MK's seem to be more forgiving.

Sorry, its not one little thing you are (possibly) doing wrong. Going for one hole groups means you need to improve every part of the system and strengthen your possible weakest link.

If you got the funds, you can invest in SCATT software/hardware that competition shooters use to analyze their aim and pull.
 
#17
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

I use the old field technique... airsoft bb's in a sock.

My mission is to get BR results from Tactical technique execution.
I'm using what the Marine's taught me with a grain if physics.
 
#18
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 178AMAX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the old field technique... airsoft bb's in a sock.

My mission is to get BR results from Tactical technique execution.
I'm using what the Marine's taught me with a grain if physics. </div></div>

BR results demand repeatability. Ain't gonna happen with a SPS barreled action. Once--maybe. All the time? Nope.
 
#19
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 178AMAX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the old field technique... airsoft bb's in a sock.

My mission is to get BR results from Tactical technique execution.
I'm using what the Marine's taught me with a grain if physics. </div></div>

That will allow you to hit the target but that's not good enough for benchrest. Military shooter's goal is to make a hit to maim or kill, not put one bullet on top of another.

You can look at dog-gone-good wedge or small window mount bags:
http://www.dog-gone-good.com/

They will give you somewhere between benchrest and marine sock accuracy...more towards the benchrest side while shooting off a bipod. Plus they are light and are designed to carry into the field. I've lent mine to bipod tactical rifle shooters at the range and their group size immediately gets cut in half (though not necessarily one hole...).

But if you want hole in hole, it is time to move to real benchrests and strong heavy rear bags. Something like the following:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/5317/Shooting-Rests
http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/5344/Rear-Bags
 
#20
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

That seems like a lot of 4064 to me.
Drop down to 44-44.5 grains.
44.2-44.3 was a great spot for my with my LTR and the 175-178's.
44.3 in my friends CZ 550 Varmint was very accurate as well.
.3-.5" at 100 well under MOA @300.
 
#21
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 178AMAX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the old field technique... airsoft bb's in a sock.

My mission is to get BR results from Tactical technique execution.
I'm using what the Marine's taught me with a grain if physics. </div></div>



Your goal is unrealistic. .75 moa or so is.
 
#22
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 178AMAX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the old field technique... airsoft bb's in a sock.

My mission is to get BR results from Tactical technique execution.
I'm using what the Marine's taught me with a grain if physics. </div></div>



Your goal is unrealistic. .75 moa or so is. </div></div>

I agree. Not gonna happen with a factory barreled action. Thats the reason people spend $3K+ on GAP's and I would venture to say not many of them will keep all shots in the same hole. Get ready to spend a slug of money
frown.gif
.

okie
 
#23
Re: 178AMAX 308 Rem. What else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That seems like a lot of 4064 to me.
Drop down to 44-44.5 grains.
44.2-44.3 was a great spot for my with my LTR and the 175-178's.
44.3 in my friends CZ 550 Varmint was very accurate as well.
.3-.5" at 100 well under MOA @300. </div></div>

Yep. I couldn't use anything over 44.7 with 178s in my LTR or SPS. 44 even was the sweet spot for both with Win cases and BR2s. I had extractor marks at 44.8. Something doesn't add up.
 
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