Need some help with information on this rifle. Father surprised me with it today.
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1903 A4
- Thread starter Matt copeland
- Start date
F**k I don't have any knowledge to impart on the rifle. But I can say you should get his father's day present early.
Looks like a beautiful rifle.
Looks like a beautiful rifle.
copy of a a4. not a real one. hope he did not pay much for it
The rifle is a Real 1903A4, which was the Army (and lesser extent Marine) Sniper rifle during WWII. After WWII they were used on a very limited basis and were mostly regulated to foreign aid.
This one has been thru a full rebuild. IF the stock is original to it, the RIA is for Rock Island Arsenal, which would be the rebuild facility.
These were usually released to the civilian market without a scope and rings, so that scope someone has added. That scope was not used on the A4 by the Military.
These are a relatively expensive rifle and that is a very nice gift.
This one has been thru a full rebuild. IF the stock is original to it, the RIA is for Rock Island Arsenal, which would be the rebuild facility.
These were usually released to the civilian market without a scope and rings, so that scope someone has added. That scope was not used on the A4 by the Military.
These are a relatively expensive rifle and that is a very nice gift.
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the front sight is not supposed to be on it. I have not seen one that was unless someone just wanted it on there.
Thank you.The rifle is a Real 1903A4, which was the Army (and lesser extent Marine) Sniper rifle during WWII. After WWII they were used on a very limited basis and were mostly regulated to foreign aid.
This one has been thru a full rebuild. IF the stock is original to it, the RIA is for Rock Island Arsenal, which would be the rebuild facility.
These were usually released to the civilian market without a scope and rings, so that scope someone has added. That scope was not used on the A4 by the Military.
These are a relatively expensive rifle and that is a very nice gift.
There were some A4's that were released by the old DCM where the 03A3 front and 03a3 rear sight were put on the rifle. Ordnance had removed the scope base and basically made the A4 into an 03A3 by installing the A3 iron sights. I have seen quite a few.
That is possible for this one, and someone just removed the rear sight and put the correct redfield base back on, or someone just added a front sight for some odd reason. I've seen collectors do some really strange stuff too to these rifles.
The front sight was definitely not parked on that barrel, it's different park. So that means someone added it later.
But the rifle is without a doubt a real A4.
That is possible for this one, and someone just removed the rear sight and put the correct redfield base back on, or someone just added a front sight for some odd reason. I've seen collectors do some really strange stuff too to these rifles.
The front sight was definitely not parked on that barrel, it's different park. So that means someone added it later.
But the rifle is without a doubt a real A4.
The RIA/EB stands for Rock Island Arsenal and Elmer Bjerke. He was an inspector at RIA from 1947 to 1958. So if that stock is original to the rifle it was rebuilt at RIA at some point during that time.
I have a contact in the Govt who can tell me if there a DCM sales record on the rifle. I will see if she has any records on it.
I have a contact in the Govt who can tell me if there a DCM sales record on the rifle. I will see if she has any records on it.
Did you spot the shim under the scope base? What do you make of that? More evidence that the base is original to the rifle maybe?
I did, but on these you always have to shim that base to make a telescopic sight work. If you ever restore one of these rifles and don't shim the base, you will not have enough adjustment in the scope to be on target. Back in the day I had a lot of these shims and would sell them to people who would restore A4's. After Saving Private Ryan came out, there was a huge push to restore these rifles back to snipers. Before that, the demand was a lot lower.
The Redfield bases on these rifles were staked from the factory. You can see on his mount where the original staking was before it was removed. Of course, on this one, the rifle is repakerized so it obviously would have been removed when refinished. The original staking is the only way to tell on an A4 if the Redfield base is original to the rifle.
There really isn't anyway to know for sure why this has a front sight, all I can really tell is it was installed at some point after the barrel was reparkerized.
Usually when I encounter an A4 with a front sight post, and I talked to the original receiver of the rifle from the old DCM. They usually tell me the rifle came to them without the base and it had 03a3 sights on it. It was shipped to them as just a regular 03A3 rifle, and not a sniper. Usually, they say they found a base, removed the rear sight, and installed it. But since the front sight is harder to remove, they left it. I bought quite a few back in the day as well that were DCM rifles and reinstalled the base and removed the front sight.
Now is this is what happened on this one, it's only speculation. I just have helped restore a lot of A4's back in the day and encountered a lot just like this.
My hunch is if that has been in his family a long time and before the ones released in the late 1990's, my contact in the govt will have a DCM sales record of the rifle. I emailed her and I should hear back shortly if they have anything.
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My gut told me this was an old DCM sales rifle.
Here is the sales record from the Govt.
Matt do you recognize the purchaser of it?
Here is the sales record from the Govt.
Matt do you recognize the purchaser of it?
The information and generosity of the membership here never ceases to amaze me. Stunning.My gut told me this was an old DCM sales rifle.
Here is the sales record from the Govt.
Matt do you recognize the purchaser of it?
Mild thread hijack, but are those your records? I have the full set of SRS books and a DCM Rifle Sales log, which even combined, have large gaps.My gut told me this was an old DCM sales rifle.
Here is the sales record from the Govt.
Matt do you recognize the purchaser of it?
Attachments
Yes. My fathers very close friends father.My gut told me this was an old DCM sales rifle.
Here is the sales record from the Govt.
Matt do you recognize the purchaser of it?
These are the Govt records that Frank Mallory used when he recorded all his DCM sales records in the SRS. But he did not get all the records. That is why you will see hits such as this that are not in the SRS.
We found someone in the Govt who has access to all those cards, which have now been scanned. So she can look them up by serial number.
So if you see any DCM sales records in the SRS, I can usually get a copy of the Card that Frank made the notation from. Plus if a weapon was a DCM sales after WWII, which are not in the SRS, she has those as well.
I have been able to find a lot of M1911's and 03A3's sales records sold in the 50's or 60's by having her look for me.
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I likely would.
As far as a scope, depending on which variation of scope you get and the correct rings, you will likely be at a $1000 to $1500 range. At least that is what I generally see them priced for at the shows.
And FWIW, there are (IIRC) 3 variants of the M73B1s. You would need to decide if you wanted to match the M73B1 to the SN range for the rifle, or, since it went through rebuild, consider a different optic, such as the M82, or even M84 that could have been used.
The offset manufacturer/serial number was unique to 03-A4 so they didn’t need to do anything else to signify or tell you it is a legit receiver and what it was made to be.
No other but 03-A4 are marked in that manner.
I have seen 03-A2 with a cross out. Those are sub-caliber artillery simulation receivers.
No other but 03-A4 are marked in that manner.
I have seen 03-A2 with a cross out. Those are sub-caliber artillery simulation receivers.
Thank you! So the scope does add value. I would like to shoot this rifle and the period correct scopes are inferior to modern options. Let me know your thoughts.
What kind of shooting do you want to do? How much do you care about historical accuracy? Do you plan to sell it at some point?
No plan to sell, but like to have complete items. My gut is to find a period correct scope now, but not sure.
That's a little low but in current times where guns are sitting over $2500 for a while. Withe correct scope it gets to $4k easily
Usually, I price a nice rebuild 03A4 at $2500 without scope. I think the market has gone a little soft on these over the years, especially rebuilds. But with the DCM paperwork, that will up the value just a little bit I would imagine.
I would personally only put a M73B1 or M84 on this. The M73B1 disappeared at the end of WWII, and most of the A4's sat in storage without a scope. They bought M84's to put on these rifles during the Korean War, as they planned to give these out in foreign aid. But the scopes didn't arrive in time for the war, so these rifles and scopes mostly just sat in storage. With this being a rebuild, personally I think a M84 would be the most correct, even though they really intended the M84 on these for foreign aid.
But whichever scope and rings you buy, it will likely set you back over a grand.
I personally think it would only increase the value of this rifle about the exact same as you would pay for the scope. So, I do not think you would gain anything monetarily by buying a scope just to increase the value of this rifle.
In fact, I generally break the rifles and scopes/rings apart when I sell them, because more people can afford 2500 than they can 3500 or 4000 and I always make more money by selling the rifle/scope/rings separate.
They are worth more sold apart than they are worth sold together I have found.
It's the same with M1C's and M1D's. They are worth more parted out, than put together.
So unless you are buying a scope for yourself to enjoy on this rifle, and planned to keep it a long time. I would not buy a USGI scope for this.
The scope you have on this now is likely a far better shooter than the old USGI scopes.
I would personally only put a M73B1 or M84 on this. The M73B1 disappeared at the end of WWII, and most of the A4's sat in storage without a scope. They bought M84's to put on these rifles during the Korean War, as they planned to give these out in foreign aid. But the scopes didn't arrive in time for the war, so these rifles and scopes mostly just sat in storage. With this being a rebuild, personally I think a M84 would be the most correct, even though they really intended the M84 on these for foreign aid.
But whichever scope and rings you buy, it will likely set you back over a grand.
I personally think it would only increase the value of this rifle about the exact same as you would pay for the scope. So, I do not think you would gain anything monetarily by buying a scope just to increase the value of this rifle.
In fact, I generally break the rifles and scopes/rings apart when I sell them, because more people can afford 2500 than they can 3500 or 4000 and I always make more money by selling the rifle/scope/rings separate.
They are worth more sold apart than they are worth sold together I have found.
It's the same with M1C's and M1D's. They are worth more parted out, than put together.
So unless you are buying a scope for yourself to enjoy on this rifle, and planned to keep it a long time. I would not buy a USGI scope for this.
The scope you have on this now is likely a far better shooter than the old USGI scopes.
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I would be interested in seeing if the barrel is parkerized under the front sight. Also, if the barrel has the punch mark near the muzzle. Nice rifle and the DCM provenance is like icing on the cake.
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The serial number 3,413,016 puts it into Block 1 3,407,088 to 3,437,087 of M1903A4 production. (ref. page 80 Collecting the American Sniper Rifle 1900 to 1945 by Joe Poyer (North Cape Publications Inc.) Yours has the "scant" stock by the way.
Only a few M1903A4 rifles had the "A3" marking changed to "A4", and apparently it was not supposed to happen. Some over-enthusiastic armorer figuring that he knew better than the U.S. Government (OK, he did but that is beside the point.) If an M1903A4 not longer was wanted as a sniper rifle, it was intended that by simply removing the scope and mount and fitting front and rear sights, that it became an M1903A3 and could then be issued as such.
I collect sniper rifles, mainly Canadian and British No. 4 (T), but have had several original M1903A4 (one factory original and the others arsenal overhauled and refinished.) I kept one M1903A4 with an original M73B1 scope for comparison and actually enjoy shooting it. I am looking for a replacement clicker spring for the drums by the way as my spring is broken at one end.
My advice:
1. Have the front sight removed e.g. by a gun smith. It should NOT be there for an M1903A4 as there is no rear sight on an A4.
2. I do suggest trying to buy an ORIGINAL correct scope and rings. The reference book I mentioned is very handy. It would have had an M73B1 in WWII service. An M73 (very rare), M81, M82 or M84 scope could also be appropriate e.g. as used in Korea, Vietnam etc. but the M73B1 is the CLASSIC. The left-handed sniper (Canadian actor) in "Saving Private Ryan" made the M1903A4 rifles very popular though they cheated and fitted two different scopes to it during filming! I always like to get a correct scope for a sniper rifle if it did not come with a correct one. Today you can find original scopes, but it will only become much harder and much more expensive over time. An M1903A4 with proper scope with have much greater collector value that a rifle with a civilian scope.
3. There are replica scopes being made, I but they lose value over time instead of increasing in value.
4. There are original Weaver 330 and M8 scopes, but again the proven M73B1 scopes is "always" right. Weaver 330 scopes on an M1903A4 are always supicious. The U.S. Army used a FEW very early on, and added a serial number, but this is so easy to fake on a cheap civilian 330 that collectors shy away from these unless there is some really solid evidence of original military use.
*Weaver 330 - There are two basic models, but the markings are the same. The U.S. Army liked the one with the drums that click. There are also the cone-shaped type, adjustable by screwdriver that are "silent". Collectors call these the 330C and 330S. Oddly the cone shaped silent type are shown in the 1943 manual on the M1903A4 ... just to confuse future collectors I expect. ;-)
*Weaver M8 - The M8 is scarce and I had one, but there is only one known reference to their use on the M1903A4 and that was related by the late Pete Senich. He and I used to correspond, but sadly there has not been any further confirmation of the M8 scope use by the military as far as I know.
Think about 19 years from now when someone looks at your rifle. "Wow! An ORIGINAL 100 year old M1903A4 sniper rifle from World War II !! Oh, too bad it has the wrong scope. You just can't find an original M73B1 scope these days. Too bad you didn't get one back in 2024 when they were availabe and cheap at around $1,000 to $1,500 compared to day's prices in 2043,, That is IF you can even find someone willing to sell one. Having an original M73B1 scope on it would have quadrulpled the value of your rifle."
How do I know? I bought my first No. 4 Mk. I (T) sniper rifle complete, matching and mint, in the wooden transit chest about 1971 for $75 dollars. Today that same rifle would sell for 100 times that, US $7,500. By the way, the No. 32, C No. 32 and especially the C No. 67 scopes for the No. 4 (T) sniper rifles are MUCH more expesive than an M73B1!
Your rifle is a gem and deserves a correct scope. Think of the old saying of Rolls Royce about their quality. "The quality remains long after the price is forgotten." Iamgibne if you had a lovely 1964 Mustang car, all original except for the engine. Imagine if you could buy a correct 1964 peiod engine for it. Expensive yes, but it would make that car so special!
Only a few M1903A4 rifles had the "A3" marking changed to "A4", and apparently it was not supposed to happen. Some over-enthusiastic armorer figuring that he knew better than the U.S. Government (OK, he did but that is beside the point.) If an M1903A4 not longer was wanted as a sniper rifle, it was intended that by simply removing the scope and mount and fitting front and rear sights, that it became an M1903A3 and could then be issued as such.
I collect sniper rifles, mainly Canadian and British No. 4 (T), but have had several original M1903A4 (one factory original and the others arsenal overhauled and refinished.) I kept one M1903A4 with an original M73B1 scope for comparison and actually enjoy shooting it. I am looking for a replacement clicker spring for the drums by the way as my spring is broken at one end.
My advice:
1. Have the front sight removed e.g. by a gun smith. It should NOT be there for an M1903A4 as there is no rear sight on an A4.
2. I do suggest trying to buy an ORIGINAL correct scope and rings. The reference book I mentioned is very handy. It would have had an M73B1 in WWII service. An M73 (very rare), M81, M82 or M84 scope could also be appropriate e.g. as used in Korea, Vietnam etc. but the M73B1 is the CLASSIC. The left-handed sniper (Canadian actor) in "Saving Private Ryan" made the M1903A4 rifles very popular though they cheated and fitted two different scopes to it during filming! I always like to get a correct scope for a sniper rifle if it did not come with a correct one. Today you can find original scopes, but it will only become much harder and much more expensive over time. An M1903A4 with proper scope with have much greater collector value that a rifle with a civilian scope.
3. There are replica scopes being made, I but they lose value over time instead of increasing in value.
4. There are original Weaver 330 and M8 scopes, but again the proven M73B1 scopes is "always" right. Weaver 330 scopes on an M1903A4 are always supicious. The U.S. Army used a FEW very early on, and added a serial number, but this is so easy to fake on a cheap civilian 330 that collectors shy away from these unless there is some really solid evidence of original military use.
*Weaver 330 - There are two basic models, but the markings are the same. The U.S. Army liked the one with the drums that click. There are also the cone-shaped type, adjustable by screwdriver that are "silent". Collectors call these the 330C and 330S. Oddly the cone shaped silent type are shown in the 1943 manual on the M1903A4 ... just to confuse future collectors I expect. ;-)
*Weaver M8 - The M8 is scarce and I had one, but there is only one known reference to their use on the M1903A4 and that was related by the late Pete Senich. He and I used to correspond, but sadly there has not been any further confirmation of the M8 scope use by the military as far as I know.
Think about 19 years from now when someone looks at your rifle. "Wow! An ORIGINAL 100 year old M1903A4 sniper rifle from World War II !! Oh, too bad it has the wrong scope. You just can't find an original M73B1 scope these days. Too bad you didn't get one back in 2024 when they were availabe and cheap at around $1,000 to $1,500 compared to day's prices in 2043,, That is IF you can even find someone willing to sell one. Having an original M73B1 scope on it would have quadrulpled the value of your rifle."
How do I know? I bought my first No. 4 Mk. I (T) sniper rifle complete, matching and mint, in the wooden transit chest about 1971 for $75 dollars. Today that same rifle would sell for 100 times that, US $7,500. By the way, the No. 32, C No. 32 and especially the C No. 67 scopes for the No. 4 (T) sniper rifles are MUCH more expesive than an M73B1!
Your rifle is a gem and deserves a correct scope. Think of the old saying of Rolls Royce about their quality. "The quality remains long after the price is forgotten." Iamgibne if you had a lovely 1964 Mustang car, all original except for the engine. Imagine if you could buy a correct 1964 peiod engine for it. Expensive yes, but it would make that car so special!
Excellent advice, I kinda wish that I hadn't sold my mint condition (probably 99%+ bluing) M73B1 a while ago. In addition to all the scopes you listed for the 1903A4, you left out the best one!
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