Gunsmithing 1911 Failure to Feed Issue

The Rat 71505

The Rat 71505

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Dec 29, 2013
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#1
I have a Springfield Armory RO Elite Operator 1911 in 10mm.

First time out to the range, it shot 100 rounds flawlessly (not one malfunction). I was shooting 180gr FMJ Sig ammuntion.

Decided to install a Trijicon RMR using an EGW dovetail mount and went to the range today to get it all sighted in.

This time I brought a couple of new Wilson Combat mags another 100 rds of ammo (1 box of Magtech and 1 box of Sellier&Bellot, both 180gr FMJ).

This range session resulted in 1 failure to feed after another. It made no difference between the boxes of ammo. Tried both ammo brands in the original mags and also both wilson combat mags.

Could the issue be with the weight that the RMR and dovetail mount added? Cheap ammo?

Also note that before my range session today, the gun was stripped, cleaned and oiled well.
7044138
 
#6
I second what has been suggested so far. Some 1911s are a little picky when it comes to different bullets. Go back to the original rounds that worked the first time. If it still has trouble, you need to go to a lighter recoil spring because the slide now has more mass.
 
#7
antithesis said:
By chance are the bullets a different profile than what you started with? Reason I ask is one of my 40 S&W's does not like RNFP but is fine with JHP.
Click to expand...

So I compared the bullet profiles.
All are FMJ but the Sig bullets are almost completely rounded, whereas the Magtech and Sellier have more of a flat nose.

I will pick up a box of the Sig ammo and give it another go hopefully tomorrow.
 
#8
cornhusker86 said:
Compare the velocities of the ammo. The Sig may be loaded a little hotter.
Click to expand...

I just compared the three different rounds.
Turns out that the Sig ammo lists 1250fps and the Magtech and Sellier are both 1164fps.
Now that I think about it, the Sig empties were ejecting about another 6 - 8' further than the other ones.
I will give the Sig ammo another try tomorrow.

Thanks.
 
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#9
Mike Casselton said:
Too much weight on the slide. Need a softer/lighter recoil spring.
Click to expand...

:unsure: Going to try the sig ammo one more time to see if it now functions the same as the other two brands.
If I still experience FTF, then I will try a lighter recoil spring.
It has the factory spring in it now (18.5 lbs).
What weight would you suggest I try?
 
#11
I doubt the RMR has added enough weight to cause failure to feed. Higher probability is the ogive profile of the bullet in the Magtech and S&B combined with the OAL isn't playing nice with feed ramp / magazine geometry. BTDT.

Powder used could also be an issue but my money is on ogive profile of bullet.
 
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#13
Update: Today's range report.

Picked up another box of the 180gr Sig Sauer ammo and ran out to the range to test. Also brought a box of the 180gr S&B, and a box of 180gr FMJ Armscor to do some comparison with.

I shot the same mags with each box of ammo:
- 8rd factory mag, shot this fully loaded twice.
- 9rd Wilson Combat, shot once fully loaded
Here are the results:

S&B: 3 total FTF (Failure To Feed), 1 with factory mag and 2 with WC
Sig Sauer: 3 total FTF, 1 with factory mag and 2 with WC (same results as the S&B ammo).
Armscor: 1 total FTF, 1 with factory mag

From left to right: S&B, Sig, Armscor
7044583

Also note that the Armscor ammo is rated at 1008 fps (slowest out of the three).

Does this change anyone thoughts on what the issue could be?

I now have almost 300 rds through the gun from new. Do I just need to keep shooting it to loosen things up?
 
#14
It would appear that Mike Casselton was right. A lighter spring would be worth a try. I would use a couple different weights in one pound increments. If you currently have an #18 try 17 and 16. If you go too light you'll beat the hell out of your pistol.
 
#16
Springfield Operators are very well built and their slide/frame fit is excellent. For a mass production pistol. That said, I've encountered your exact issue with brand new guns. Some initial things to be aware of:

1. The extractor may be exerting too much pressure against the rim of the case as they are pushed forward by the slide and the frame feed ramp is bringing them vertical.

1.5. The extractor claw/tip may be just a hair too long and be contacting the case instead of the flat part of the extractor. The claw is just for extracting. The flat which is perpendicular to the claw is what controls the round during feeding.

2. The feed ramp at the 4-8 o'clock position of the mouth of the barrel may need just a hair of additional beveling... I mean just a hair to create just a couple thousands more clearance for the bottom half of the round angle downwards ever so slightly as the slide pushes the round into the chamber.

3. The "Armory Kote" finish is wearing off as you're breaking everything in and creating just a bit of extra friction during the first couple hundred rounds.


Put a good, thin lube on the slide/frame ways, the top lugs of the barrel/slide, barrel/bushing, barrel feet/slide stop cross pin and work the slide by hand a few hundred times. Clean, and do it again. It will absolutely become progressively easier.

The stock recoil spring in a 10mm is 18 pounds... I think. In a 45 it's 16 or 16.5. Using a lighter spring in a 10mm will result in extra wear due to the increased slide velocity caused by that round. While it may be a "fix". I wouldn't use it long-term.

Springfield customer service is one of the best in the business. I would absolutely be contacting them, explaining the issue, and get advice from them.
 
#18
clcustom1911 said:
Springfield Operators are very well built and their slide/frame fit is excellent. For a mass production pistol. That said, I've encountered your exact issue with brand new guns. Some initial things to be aware of:

1. The extractor may be exerting too much pressure against the rim of the case as they are pushed forward by the slide and the frame feed ramp is bringing them vertical.

1.5. The extractor claw/tip may be just a hair too long and be contacting the case instead of the flat part of the extractor. The claw is just for extracting. The flat which is perpendicular to the claw is what controls the round during feeding.

2. The feed ramp at the 4-8 o'clock position of the mouth of the barrel may need just a hair of additional beveling... I mean just a hair to create just a couple thousands more clearance for the bottom half of the round angle downwards ever so slightly as the slide pushes the round into the chamber.

3. The "Armory Kote" finish is wearing off as you're breaking everything in and creating just a bit of extra friction during the first couple hundred rounds.


Put a good, thin lube on the slide/frame ways, the top lugs of the barrel/slide, barrel/bushing, barrel feet/slide stop cross pin and work the slide by hand a few hundred times. Clean, and do it again. It will absolutely become progressively easier.

The stock recoil spring in a 10mm is 18 pounds... I think. In a 45 it's 16 or 16.5. Using a lighter spring in a 10mm will result in extra wear due to the increased slide velocity caused by that round. While it may be a "fix". I wouldn't use it long-term.

Springfield customer service is one of the best in the business. I would absolutely be contacting them, explaining the issue, and get advice from them.
Click to expand...


Thank you for all of the info! This makes sense. I will strip it and take a closer look at the extractor and feed ramp while cleaning. The slide is also really tight yet, so I will probably take your advice on oiling and racking the slide a bunch.
 
#19
The Rat 71505 said:
Thank you for all of the info! This makes sense. I will strip it and take a closer look at the extractor and feed ramp while cleaning. The slide is also really tight yet, so I will probably take your advice on oiling and racking the slide a bunch.
Click to expand...

No problem at all. Have fun, and shoot the shit out of it!!
 
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#20
Just for the heck of it, the next time you shoot that gun, grip it really tight as if you are not going to let it recoil. See if it affects the number of FTF. Then, grip it really loose in your hand to where it literally flops around when you fire it. See what affect that has. The results should tell you whether or not it's a spring issue.
 
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#21
eastexsteve said:
Just for the heck of it, the next time you shoot that gun, grip it really tight as if you are not going to let it recoil. See if it affects the number of FTF. Then, grip it really loose in your hand to where it literally flops around when you fire it. See what affect that has. The results should tell you whether or not it's a spring issue.
Click to expand...

That will be a great test once the gun is broken in. Doing that test right now in combination with the other variables could throw a false positive.

JMO
 
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#23
As others have mentioned, i'd mess with the recoil spring. Maybe take the RMR off and see if the issue persists. Doesn't sound like its a mag related issue
 
#24
Since your pistol functioned fine the first time out, I would remove the RMR and try all 3 brands of ammo again. If it will function without the RMR you have pinpointed your issue. If some of the ammo functions and some doesn't, you know that ammo is not friendly to your gun. If you start changing a bunch of things it will be harder to figure out what is causing the problem.
 
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#25
eastexsteve - I did try gripping the gun differently ( very tightly and also loosely) and it still didn't seem to make that much of a difference either way. It may have chambered rounds a little more completely when I gripped the gun very tightly but not enough for me to think it was somehow linked to the issue.

I called SpringField Armory Customer Service today and described my issue to them. The person didn't seem to have any ideas for me right off the bat, until I mentioned something about added weight on the slide (RMR and dovetail mount). His "indirect suggestion" (since they are not supposed to reccomend modifying the handgun in any way especially with after-market parts), was to try a 1 or 2 lbs heavier recoil spring. - I'm not sure what to think about that?!

He also said that the gun should be broke in at 250-350 rds.

I think I will just strip it, clean it, oil it, and shoot it another 100 - 200 rounds then re-evaluate.
 
#26
SEMO Shooter said:
Since your pistol functioned fine the first time out, I would remove the RMR and try all 3 brands of ammo again. If it will function without the RMR you have pinpointed your issue. If some of the ammo functions and some doesn't, you know that ammo is not friendly to your gun. If you start changing a bunch of things it will be harder to figure out what is causing the problem.
Click to expand...
This
 
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#27
The Rat 71505 said:
eastexsteve - I did try gripping the gun differently ( very tightly and also loosely) and it still didn't seem to make that much of a difference either way. It may have chambered rounds a little more completely when I gripped the gun very tightly but not enough for me to think it was somehow linked to the issue.
Click to expand...

Then, in my opinion, it's not a spring issue. I went back and looked at your pic. It appeared to have ejected the fired case, but failed to load the fresh round. I would be looking at feeding issues with that ammo. It's not that unusual. A little beveling and deburring might be in order.
 
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#28
not to promote another forum, but Gabe Suarez ran with the Kelly McGann / Jim Grover RMR idea as his own...

Gabes forum has a lot of info on issues with the RMR.

I have a Glock 17 with an RMR and it loves 124 +P and 147 grain loads.
The Glock has to be wet with lube to run reliably with standard 115 grain ammo. The slide closes but not if your thumb contacts the slide. a stock glock, no issues.

The Heavier projectile seems to have a longer recoil impulse and works better. Now I know you don't have a Glock and your dont have a 9MM- but hey- thats my experience.


Another issue with the Glock RMR milling is screw length. One of the Glock screws will interfere with internals unless trimmed shorter than the other 3.


So some ideas-

(Skip this one as you have not milled the slide)
(Disassemble your slide - verify that screws are not too long and going into the extractor and firing pin channel. (Best to sort all issues...))

Try some buffalo bore ammo of full power 10MM. A lot of 10 MM is loaded to 40 specs. Some folks shoot 40 from their 10MM to save money...

If the full power solves the issue, pick up a few lighter recoil springs- they are not much $$$

Also- ammo and temperature change velocity. Was it colder when you shot with the RMR? You could set the unloaded gun on the defroster and a magazine next to it for 2-5 minutes and then fire a magazine. Does the powder and chamber being warm increase the pressure to cycle ammo?
 
#29
The Rat 71505 said:
eastexsteve - I did try gripping the gun differently ( very tightly and also loosely) and it still didn't seem to make that much of a difference either way. It may have chambered rounds a little more completely when I gripped the gun very tightly but not enough for me to think it was somehow linked to the issue.

I called SpringField Armory Customer Service today and described my issue to them. The person didn't seem to have any ideas for me right off the bat, until I mentioned something about added weight on the slide (RMR and dovetail mount). His "indirect suggestion" (since they are not supposed to reccomend modifying the handgun in any way especially with after-market parts), was to try a 1 or 2 lbs heavier recoil spring. - I'm not sure what to think about that?!

He also said that the gun should be broke in at 250-350 rds.

I think I will just strip it, clean it, oil it, and shoot it another 100 - 200 rounds then re-evaluate.
Click to expand...

The reason why he may or may not had recommended a heavier recoil spring is because your gun has issues with feeding the round after it is picked up from the magazine.

If a brand new 1911 from the factory has feeding and extraction issues after the first 500 rounds it needs to go in for a warranty inspection.

The only reason why you would need to use a lighter recoil spring is if you had problem extracting and ejecting. An example would be if you fired around and it extracts and ejects the spent casing... but fails to pick up the next casing from the magazine because the slide is not moving back far enough for the breach face to push on the rear of that cartridge in the magazine. Or if you are using reduced recoil ammunition for competition..... Which will cause the slide to not move back far enough to eject or pick up the next round.

You do not have a rearward slide velocity problem because, like you said, the casings are being ejected several feet away which is plenty good.

I hope that makes sense.

When I was loading my 185 competition load many moons ago, I had them tuned with full power springs to where the casings were dropping less than 3 or 4 feet away from me and feeding reliably. It was pretty awesome.

One thing I used to do on 1911's I would work on to make them feed smoother was polish the breach face with either a white Arkansas stone or I would fashion some other kind of device to polish the breach face to a mirror shine.

Additionally, opposite the extractor there should be a "wall" where the case rim is pushed against while feeding. As the slide moves forward the magazine releases the cartridge which is pushed up against this wall by the extractor as the breach face pushes the round forward and against the frame feed ramp at the same time. The nose of the bullet literally jumps vertically up into the chamber as the slide is going forward. At this point, as the cartridge is pushed forward, the top of the bullet contacts the inside top of the chamber and gets pushed down.... The magazine lips now fully released the cartridge...now the back end of the cartridge is popped up from the spring pressure of either the next round in the magazine or the follower to be positioned parallel with the chamber and barrel to be finally chambered.

The 1911 pistol operates on a controlled feed principal where the cartridge is in contact with at least 4 different surfaces while it is being handled through the feeding cycle. That said, all of those surfaces that contact the cartridge through the feeding and extraction cycle need to be polished or otherwise broken in to ensure smooth and reliable function.

The good news is once your pistol is broken in it will run smooth as butter. :)
 
Last edited:
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#30
hermosabeach said:
not to promote another forum, but Gabe Suarez ran with the Kelly McGann / Jim Grover RMR idea as his own...

Gabes forum has a lot of info on issues with the RMR.

I have a Glock 17 with an RMR and it loves 124 +P and 147 grain loads.
The Glock has to be wet with lube to run reliably with standard 115 grain ammo. The slide closes but not if your thumb contacts the slide. a stock glock, no issues.

The Heavier projectile seems to have a longer recoil impulse and works better. Now I know you don't have a Glock and your dont have a 9MM- but hey- thats my experience.


Another issue with the Glock RMR milling is screw length. One of the Glock screws will interfere with internals unless trimmed shorter than the other 3.


So some ideas-

(Skip this one as you have not milled the slide)
(Disassemble your slide - verify that screws are not too long and going into the extractor and firing pin channel. (Best to sort all issues...))

Try some buffalo bore ammo of full power 10MM. A lot of 10 MM is loaded to 40 specs. Some folks shoot 40 from their 10MM to save money...

If the full power solves the issue, pick up a few lighter recoil springs- they are not much $$$

Also- ammo and temperature change velocity. Was it colder when you shot with the RMR? You could set the unloaded gun on the defroster and a magazine next to it for 2-5 minutes and then fire a magazine. Does the powder and chamber being warm increase the pressure to cycle ammo?
Click to expand...

It was cold everytime I have gone out an shot this year (30 - 35 degrees). I will try warming things up just for fun and see how it goes.
 
#33
I fired my Springfield TRP 1911 in 10mm for the first time this weekend. The mag tech ammo had a ton of FTFs. I had maybe 20-30 out of about 60 rds that FTF. I bought a box of sig ammo and it ran flawless. I did have marks on the casing itself where the mag tech ammo was catching in the chamber about 1/3 of the way down the casing from the bullet. Some of the FTFs were lined up with the bore and partially in, not at an angle. I would suggest taking the rmr off and seeing how the three types shoot again. I’m wondering if sig has a harder or softer brass that slides on the feed ramp better. I’m following to see what solution you find since I have a similar problem.
 
#34
So I had something similar happen lately with a Springfield Silent Operator I purchase in the fall that was brand new. I didn’t try installing the RMR but after about 150 rounds or so I started getting feeding issues wher it would extract fine but not feed the next round in far enough for battery. I ended up doing some research and got a heavier recoil spring and it fixed the issue. The factory one that came with mine was 16lb and I went with 18lb and haven’t had any issue since.
 
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#35
Darkside-Six said:
So I had something similar happen lately with a Springfield Silent Operator I purchase in the fall that was brand new. I didn’t try installing the RMR but after about 150 rounds or so I started getting feeding issues wher it would extract fine but not feed the next round in far enough for battery. I ended up doing some research and got a heavier recoil spring and it fixed the issue. The factory one that came with mine was 16lb and I went with 18lb and haven’t had any issue since.
Click to expand...

PERFECT. I'm shocked the factory would put 16# spring in a 10mm. I never put anything under 18# in either a 40 or 10mm firing factory (full power) ammo.
 
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#37
duck1911 said:
I fired my Springfield TRP 1911 in 10mm for the first time this weekend. The mag tech ammo had a ton of FTFs. I had maybe 20-30 out of about 60 rds that FTF. I bought a box of sig ammo and it ran flawless. I did have marks on the casing itself where the mag tech ammo was catching in the chamber about 1/3 of the way down the casing from the bullet. Some of the FTFs were lined up with the bore and partially in, not at an angle. I would suggest taking the rmr off and seeing how the three types shoot again. I’m wondering if sig has a harder or softer brass that slides on the feed ramp better. I’m following to see what solution you find since I have a similar problem.
Click to expand...


This right here ^^^ is exactly what I was seeing with mine (With the RMR on).
 
#38
After cleaning and oiling the snot out of it, and racking the slide a bunch, I'm still seeing the same issues (I have not tried the heavier bullets yet).

I made another phone call to Springfield and this time I spoke with someone who sounded a lot more knowledgeable. They went over a few things and suggested that I send it in for inspection/repair.

Comparing this model to their TRP in 10mm, they both use a 18.5# recoil spring. Technically you pay this much for a quality handgun, and you shouldn't see these kind of issues unless the RMR is the cause (Which is highly unlikely).

Sent it off to Springfield. I will let y'all know what they say.
 
#39
The Rat 71505 said:
I have a Springfield Armory RO Elite Operator 1911 in 10mm.

First time out to the range, it shot 100 rounds flawlessly (not one malfunction). I was shooting 180gr FMJ Sig ammuntion.

Decided to install a Trijicon RMR using an EGW dovetail mount and went to the range today to get it all sighted in.

This time I brought a couple of new Wilson Combat mags another 100 rds of ammo (1 box of Magtech and 1 box of Sellier&Bellot, both 180gr FMJ).

This range session resulted in 1 failure to feed after another. It made no difference between the boxes of ammo. Tried both ammo brands in the original mags and also both wilson combat mags.

Could the issue be with the weight that the RMR and dovetail mount added? Cheap ammo?

Also note that before my range session today, the gun was stripped, cleaned and oiled well.View attachment 7044138
Click to expand...
It looks like the bullet makes it up the ramp but the rim might be hanging up on the extractor.

Maybe the extractor got clocked a little if it or the firing pin stop were removed when you installed the RMR.

If you added a flat bottom firing pin stop when you installed the RMR, that will slow the slide a bit too.

My gut feeling is that it's extractor and the slightly slower slide isn't helping.

A 1911 reliability job has a certain amount of smoothing on the extractor hook to make the case rim slide under it easily. Make sure yours is done right and passes the tension tests.
 
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#40
flyer said:
It looks like the bullet makes it up the ramp but the rim might be hanging up on the extractor.

Maybe the extractor got clocked a little if it or the firing pin stop were removed when you installed the RMR.

If you added a flat bottom firing pin stop when you installed the RMR, that will slow the slide a bit too.

My gut feeling is that it's extractor and the slightly slower slide isn't helping.

A 1911 reliability job has a certain amount of smoothing on the extractor hook to make the case rim slide under it easily. Make sure yours is done right and passes the tension tests.
Click to expand...


What are these "Tension Tests" you speak of?
 
#42
#45
I bought mine around July last year and had the same issue, after polishing the ramp myself rather than sending the gun back it seems to feed and cycle flawlessly. Just curious how yours is doing at this point?
 
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