1943 Mosin-Nagant sniper surprise video!

[Tango down]

Hi guys
A friend of mine surprised me at the range a few days ago, as he knew I was going to test/compare some loads at 500 meters. I was not expecting him being there with a couple of cameras but I guess it turned out all right. He did a great job filming and editing and I thought some of you may want to take a look.
It was a new experience for me, shooting under the eye of a camera (still, it is easier than when someone is shooting back at you) but once you get behind the scope, it does not matter anymore; you just hope you are not going to miss too many shots
He shot it as it went, only few little mistakes such as one "hit" before I send the round, or the "24 FPS" bullets; it is really 2400 but I am sure you already got that. I already knew the Varget loads were good but never tried the 4350 loads, I just went with the Sierra Manual, reading the specs on 7.62x54r, as well as specs for the 174gr BTHP and the 175gr BTHP.
I sent a couple of rounds at 500, before the camera started rolling, as I only had written dope for 300. I also shot 3 rounds at 100, 10 minutes before, to make sure the 4350 loads were similar in accuracy to the Varget loads, got lucky, they were.
It was not the best day for accurate shooting, as the wind was at 10/12 MPH and changing but the purpose of this range session was to compare the 44.6 Varget loads to the 52.5 of Accurate 4350.
During this session, I was shooting the two loads alternatively.

Here is the link
https://vimeo.com/68784589

No matter what, it was another good day at the range.
Ombre noire

 

[VYD]

No surprises there, these old guns can shoot.

 

[Tango down]

No surprises there, these old guns can shoot.

VYD
True, I will ask my friend if he can make another video; we would set up the target further out than 500 meters, like 960 yards (this is as far as this range goes). This should be a bit more interesting and a lot more challenging

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Nice video. Thanks for the information also.
I thought that being addicted to guns was just a single addiction. As I go further on, I find that there are many addictions related to, or sub-addictions as it were, of the addiction to guns. I got a Garand in February, a K-31 in May, and have been considering a Mosin-Nagant also. When will it ever end???? Truthfully, I really don't want it to end----I don't have a problem.

 

[Tango down]

Nice video. Thanks for the information also.
I thought that being addicted to guns was just a single addiction. As I go further on, I find that there are many addictions related to, or sub-addictions as it were, of the addiction to guns. I got a Garand in February, a K-31 in May, and have been considering a Mosin-Nagant also. When will it ever end???? Truthfully, I really don't want it to end----I don't have a problem.

Hi Sniper Uncle
This is the favorite phrase of a good friend of mine, also a SH member, "It never ends...". There are words that we do not say anymore, such as "I will not get another rifle", or "should I reload for this caliber?". We all laugh about it now, as we already know the answers. At the end, we do complain about one thing; as our "rifle collection" expends, we eventually need to buy another safe and for the price of the safe, we could get more rifles...and the story goes on
Congrats for the Garand and the K-31, these are good rifles; the Mosin is fun too. I put some work into mine but only what a WWII shooter could have done too, back then; I like to keep them as they were, it gives us a better idea of what the soldiers were dealing with when delivering these long shots.

 

[Pat M]

good video , will have to go play with my Mosin soon

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Hi Sniper Uncle
This is the favorite phrase of a good friend of mine, also a SH member, "It never ends...". There are words that we do not say anymore, such as "I will not get another rifle", or "should I reload for this caliber?". We all laugh about it now, as we already know the answers. At the end, we do complain about one thing; as our "rifle collection" expends, we eventually need to buy another safe and for the price of the safe, we could get more rifles...and the story goes on
Congrats for the Garand and the K-31, these are good rifles; the Mosin is fun too. I put some work into mine but only what a WWII shooter could have done too, back then; I like to keep them as they were, it gives us a better idea of what the soldiers were dealing with when delivering these long shots.

I will admit to changing the sights on my Garand, I just put a smaller diopter and more adjustable rear sight on, and put a cross-hair sight on the front sight. This will keep it an iron sight, but increase its usability by me. I know I may not be able to compete with these new sights, but right now I have to limit my wife's practice time to keep myself better at shooting than she is-----sad, I know. The K-31 I have no intention of making any changes to. As for the Mosin, I would love to have one that would be period correct as yours is. As you say, the fun of these rifles is to have them essentially as they were in the time they were designed for.

I also wait until my wife really has her heart set on getting a piece for herself, and then tell her I want a certain piece for myself----that way, she has a hard time saying no. I also have resorted to selling other non-gun-related things and telling her she can have a portion of the proceeds, but I am using a certain amount of the proceeds for a gun or an accessory that I want. That works okay too, and I get to feed my habit.

 

[Tango down]

I will admit to changing the sights on my Garand, I just put a smaller diopter and more adjustable rear sight on, and put a cross-hair sight on the front sight. This will keep it an iron sight, but increase its usability by me. I know I may not be able to compete with these new sights, but right now I have to limit my wife's practice time to keep myself better at shooting than she is-----sad, I know. The K-31 I have no intention of making any changes to. As for the Mosin, I would love to have one that would be period correct as yours is. As you say, the fun of these rifles is to have them essentially as they were in the time they were designed for.

I also wait until my wife really has her heart set on getting a piece for herself, and then tell her I want a certain piece for myself----that way, she has a hard time saying no. I also have resorted to selling other non-gun-related things and telling her she can have a portion of the proceeds, but I am using a certain amount of the proceeds for a gun or an accessory that I want. That works okay too, and I get to feed my habit.

LOL, I hear you, thank God my wife is a shooter too. She was in the Moldavian Junior National Shooting Team (back then, USSR) and she is still able to out shoot me from time to time, even though her eyes are not as good as they used to be. It does greatly help when your best half understands your needs

 

[30cal_Fun]

Did you ever tried .308 caliber bullets? If so, how do they shoot? Mine works best with 174gr .303 British boat tails. I'm still working on load development though.

 

[Tango down]

Did you ever tried .308 caliber bullets? If so, how do they shoot? Mine works best with 174gr .303 British boat tails. I'm still working on load development though.

Hi 30cal_Fun
This was a question I had myself so, a while ago, I reloaded several kind of .308 for the 7.62x54r Mosin. Sierra (175 SMK), Hornady (178 AMAX), Lapua (155 Scenar), Berger (175 LRT, 185 Hybrids, 185 VLD). I cannot say that I put a lot of work into it, as I loaded everything at 43.5 gr of Varget, staying at the SAAMI dimension, brass, primers and cases where the same as I used for the 174 gr SMK .311 diameter (303). I did not think it was going to be fantastic, as my barrel slugged at .313 but nevertheless, I was curious to see the results. It did better than expected but was not as good as shooting the .311 SMK. I had a couple of groups at around 1" 1/2 (I was shooting that day at 100 yards) but when I shot these same loads again, I realized that consistency just was not there. The .311 are more consistent in my rifle but each rifle will be different so you could give it a shot and see what the .308 bullet does in yours. I know that some of the first Finnish rifles were specifically made in .308, the Finns later on went to .310, so they could use Russian ammo. All Russian M-N rifles were at .310.
I like the load I am using now, as it is a decent match with the PU elevation turret markings, which makes my life much easier when shooting distances.
Let us know if you are to experiment of few loads on your own, especially with different powders.
I do have one question for you; here in the USA, we are having a very hard time, for several months now, getting smokeless powder such as Varget, RL 15 and similar powders, as well as some of the most common primers. As you are in Netherlands, how is the situation in your Country and in Europe, do you still have easy access to powders and primers, or are you having the same issues?
Thanks and good shooting

 

[30cal_Fun]

We don't have the same "ammo craze" as I see in the USA, every type of ammo, primer, powder and so on is readily available but it has gotten really expensive in the past year. To give you an example: PMC bronze line or S&B (both standard 55gr FMJ) are about 480 dollars per 1000 rounds, about 1 or 2 years ago, that was about 400 flat.
In Europe the most common powder is Vihta Vuori (Finnish), the powders that I often see in the USA such as Hodgden and Varget are hardly used or sold, so my guess is that we haven't noticed much drop in powder supply because when it comes to ammo and reloading equipment there are plenty of domestic sources and the suppliers still have a good stockpile of the American stuff.

I never tried .308 bullets because I knew Mosin bores are .311 (or even .312) and it has worked great so far.
Yesterday I tried out several loads with of VV N140 with CCI large rifle primers and Privi Partizan 174gr .303 boat tail bullets. I know, not the best bullets but its about half the price of Sierra's or Noslers.
I had eight loads starting out with the minimum load of 43,5gr up to 47gr with 0,5gr increments.
The results: The hotter the load, the bigger the groups. The best groups I had were with 43,5gr and 44gr. Around 1MOA if I did my part.

I hope this helps. I'm always interested in load data for the mosin nagant.

 

[Mike Radford]

I have used 308 Sierra HPBT match bullets in several Mosins plus an NDM-86 and the results were disappointing. My loading manuel has data for them but I know no one who uses them with any regularity. With rare exception, they are gonna be a waste of time and money IMO.

 

[kraigWY]

I don't use glass on my Mosin but since I got the rear sight shaved off the bottom of the slider its set for the marks on the ladder.

Mine likes the .311 303 bullets best, cast bullets make some good off hand practice. I have no problem shooting my gongs to 400 yards using the marks (100-400) on the sights.

I've never used surplus bullets but that's gonna change. I found (Midway) I can get 880 rounds for about $200 bucks. I can't buy primers for that. Its made in '72 so I think its non-corrosive.

My favorite thing about the rifle is its the cheapest way for one to get into competition. I'm a CMP GSM MI and put on vintage rifle clinics and matches. The matches are conducted at 100-200 yards. To clean the targets you need to have a rifle that will group 3.5 MOA. That's not un-reasonable for any decent Mosin. One just needs to learn to shoot the rifle in Prone, Prone Rapid Fire, and Off Hand, so its not the gun but the shooter.

This means just about anyone can afford to buy a Mosin and surplus ammo and be competitive..............I hate to see shooting sports become a rich man's game. The Mosin in the CMP GSM matches is the answer to that.

I wont be able to for a couple weeks, but when I get back I'm going to take my Mosin and the surplus ammo and try my gong further out. I can get a mile or better in the gravel pit about two miles from here, not saying I can shoot that far but at least I'll be able to stretch the legs of this rifle.

The Mosin-Nagant would make a great small game rifle, shoot a bunch of rabbits, spear them with the bayonet, add some 'taters, onions, green peppers and you have your ready made shiskabob.

 

[Tango down]

We don't have the same "ammo craze" as I see in the USA, every type of ammo, primer, powder and so on is readily available but it has gotten really expensive in the past year. To give you an example: PMC bronze line or S&B (both standard 55gr FMJ) are about 480 dollars per 1000 rounds, about 1 or 2 years ago, that was about 400 flat.
In Europe the most common powder is Vihta Vuori (Finnish), the powders that I often see in the USA such as Hodgden and Varget are hardly used or sold, so my guess is that we haven't noticed much drop in powder supply because when it comes to ammo and reloading equipment there are plenty of domestic sources and the suppliers still have a good stockpile of the American stuff.

I never tried .308 bullets because I knew Mosin bores are .311 (or even .312) and it has worked great so far.
Yesterday I tried out several loads with of VV N140 with CCI large rifle primers and Privi Partizan 174gr .303 boat tail bullets. I know, not the best bullets but its about half the price of Sierra's or Noslers.
I had eight loads starting out with the minimum load of 43,5gr up to 47gr with 0,5gr increments.
The results: The hotter the load, the bigger the groups. The best groups I had were with 43,5gr and 44gr. Around 1MOA if I did my part.

I hope this helps. I'm always interested in load data for the mosin nagant.

Hi 30cal_Fun
Thanks for the ammo info in Netherlands, raising the prices is another way to go for deterring people from shooting, or using firearms to have fun, compete or defend themselves and their families. Here we are fighting to keep our right to bear arms and the ammo craze got started by ignorant politicians, more concerned with their "agenda", than anything else but that is a different subject. Regular citizens started to "stockpile" ammo, primers, powder, bullets and even firearms and I can't blame them too much but we will all be glad when the situation will get back to normal.
I am with you on the loads and I heard other shooters saying the same thing; here we use Varget a lot, or similar rate of burn powders, such as RL 15 and it seems that loads between 43 and 45 are giving the best results. I have been looking at other powders in order to not being limited by the lack of availability of the most common powders. I have a list of 10 different kind of possible powders and once you find the proper load, you can jump from one to another and they are all worth using.
I have some VV N150 but did not try the N140 yet, I take note of your results with these components, as anything around MOA is good. Do you have a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 sniper PU, or a different kind?

 

[Tango down]

I have used 308 Sierra HPBT match bullets in several Mosins plus an NDM-86 and the results were disappointing. My loading manuel has data for them but I know no one who uses them with any regularity. With rare exception, they are gonna be a waste of time and money IMO.

Hi Mike
Agreed, the only times that I heard of good accuracy reports with the .308 bullets in a MN were from shooters using early Finnish MN, which were at a .308 bore to start with. I tried them only because I was curious to see the results first hand; well, now I know for sure

 

[Mike Radford]

Kraig, I would love to see you get a good PU. SOG had some with scope mismatch, mixed up by ATI and sold to SOG, for about $450. AIM just sold some 2nd qualilty for $425. Three of the ones sold were $1000 rifles IMO. One was a 42 Tula, 2010 made. One was a 47 Izhevsk, about 4000 made. One had an Alloy scope that had never been refurbed and was still in its Annodized finish, very uncommon. They were cosmetic seconds. Some folks got amazingly lucky.

Typically 880 rds of Surplus has been about $160 but with the recent crunch, $200 is not bad. Some of the surplus will shoot 2 MOA or a bit better, some won't. If you can get "Target" or "Extra Match", your Mosin should be a MOA, or not worse than, 1.5MOA machine.

You are so right, best and cheapest way to compete. My last lb of Varget powder was $30. Silly. Reloading is not cheap.

 

[30cal_Fun]

I hope the arms shortage will end soon Ombre Noire. The primary American made product that is starting to get scarce here are 30round AR15 magazines, people are starting to ask crazy prices for them.
Just to give you a few examples of how our firearms laws are: It takes one and a half years of shooting club membership, training and paperwork to get a firearms license for a single firearm, then another year before you can buy a maximum of five. And since of January, your starting firearm can only be a .22LR. You are not allowed to (concealed)carry a firearm and at home you have to keep firearms, ammunition and magazines in separate safes at all times. So far still understandable. But what really frightens me is that self defense is not a constitutional right. If I shoot a burglar with a firearm, even if he is armed and dangerous, I'll spend the rest of my years in jail...
But enough about politics.

I have an Izhevsk 91/30 from 1943 that was originally an ordinary infantry rifle but had an original style PU scope added later on. Bore looks like a train wreck but is has strong rifling and shoots great.
You can use N150 too. You can find the reload data for VV here: Products - Lapua

 

[Tango down]

I don't use glass on my Mosin but since I got the rear sight shaved off the bottom of the slider its set for the marks on the ladder.

Mine likes the .311 303 bullets best, cast bullets make some good off hand practice. I have no problem shooting my gongs to 400 yards using the marks (100-400) on the sights.

I've never used surplus bullets but that's gonna change. I found (Midway) I can get 880 rounds for about $200 bucks. I can't buy primers for that. Its made in '72 so I think its non-corrosive.

My favorite thing about the rifle is its the cheapest way for one to get into competition. I'm a CMP GSM MI and put on vintage rifle clinics and matches. The matches are conducted at 100-200 yards. To clean the targets you need to have a rifle that will group 3.5 MOA. That's not un-reasonable for any decent Mosin. One just needs to learn to shoot the rifle in Prone, Prone Rapid Fire, and Off Hand, so its not the gun but the shooter.

This means just about anyone can afford to buy a Mosin and surplus ammo and be competitive..............I hate to see shooting sports become a rich man's game. The Mosin in the CMP GSM matches is the answer to that.

I wont be able to for a couple weeks, but when I get back I'm going to take my Mosin and the surplus ammo and try my gong further out. I can get a mile or better in the gravel pit about two miles from here, not saying I can shoot that far but at least I'll be able to stretch the legs of this rifle.

The Mosin-Nagant would make a great small game rifle, shoot a bunch of rabbits, spear them with the bayonet, add some 'taters, onions, green peppers and you have your ready made shiskabob.

Hi Kraig
I have heard of MN with the rear sight shaved off but never had a chance to try one of these. As you can hit at 400 and probably further, then it looks like it is working pretty well
Now that you make me think about it, I also shot my '43 Tula sniper, using the iron sights, at 300 and 400 yards (and it does work pretty darn well) but never tried any further; I will have to do so.
Thanks for being so active in the shooting world, by putting on Vintage rifles clinics and matches, I 100% agree that shooting sports should never become a rich man's game and all should have access to it. Of course, some areas are more costly than others such as ELR but shooting a Mosin, or most Vintage rifles, should be vastly accessible, without breaking the bank.
Rabbits are tasty but the Mosin can also be a very effective deer/elk rifle; few guys actually hunt with it.
Let me know if you ever give a shot at a mile (with iron sights, you will need a spotter, great eyes, great talent and a good amount of luck, it would also be the shot of a lifetime but as it is all for fun then why not?), as I was just thinking about it the other day. I was just done shooting at around 1000 yards, already packed and out of ammo, when 2 guys showed up with a 300 WM and a 7 mm SAUM and started shooting at a mile. As they were shooting at a rather large rock, I thought I may be able to see it with the 3.5 PU and I have been thinking about it since then. I know the ammo will reach it, as I shot and hit with .308 at a mile, on several occasions but I had top optics (and 30/35 MOA rails) on these rifles (TRG22 and 700PSS) which is hardly the case of the PU scope
May be I am just day dreaming but I will try it, as soon as the opportunity arise; it will also be some serious Kentucky windage needed. My friend Mark, who did the filming on the video, has a 2 feet x 3 feet metal silhouette. I will ask if I can borrow it for this "experience". If I can see the target, I will give it a try and I will post the results and my comments, either way. If I cannot see the target, then forget about it; I hope I will see it

 

[wilecoyote]

ombre noire:
please,give a try: it will be REALLY easier on the target with an adjustable iris mounted on a shooting google frame_ (we must remember that the once were 16yrs.boys drafted to mil.service, with teenager's eyes on iron sights...)_ that before considering ourselves limited to "scope-only" fun_
I hope "we" will see it_

 

[Tango down]

I hope the arms shortage will end soon Ombre Noire. The primary American made product that is starting to get scarce here are 30round AR15 magazines, people are starting to ask crazy prices for them.
Just to give you a few examples of how our firearms laws are: It takes one and a half years of shooting club membership, training and paperwork to get a firearms license for a single firearm, then another year before you can buy a maximum of five. And since of January, your starting firearm can only be a .22LR. You are not allowed to (concealed)carry a firearm and at home you have to keep firearms, ammunition and magazines in separate safes at all times. So far still understandable. But what really frightens me is that self defense is not a constitutional right. If I shoot a burglar with a firearm, even if he is armed and dangerous, I'll spend the rest of my years in jail...
But enough about politics.

I have an Izhevsk 91/30 from 1943 that was originally an ordinary infantry rifle but had an original style PU scope added later on. Bore looks like a train wreck but is has strong rifling and shoots great.
You can use N150 too. You can find the reload data for VV here: Products - Lapua

I remember these absurd gun laws; I was originally born in Europe. I see that nothing has changed for the better and it is probably worst than when I was there. I was looking for a better word but I cannot find one, so I will just call these laws "retarded". This is why we have to keep on fighting for our rights, here in United States. The "Gun Free Zones" are prime hunting areas for criminals and insane individuals, who will always have access to guns, no matter what kind of Gun Laws will be in effect. Australia suffers of a new kind of crime, since the "Gun Ban" took effect, they call it "Home Invasion". One sad thing, as Australian Authorities seemed to have a hard time to define what exactly was a Home Invasion, an old Australian Grand Mother went on TV and said "I can tell you exactly what is a Home Invasion, it is when someone comes to my house uninvited and does not leave when asked to do so". Rocket science right there...but as you say, enough about politics.
To go back to your rifle, it sounds like it is a good shooter. My wife also has a '43 Izhevsk, regular infantry rifle, and it shoots pretty darn straight too. She actually hit a large gong 9 times out of 12 rounds (the gong was about 1 meter x 1 meter) at 880 meters (960 yards) with iron sights, so regular non sniper rifles, can also be of good accuracy. I did not try it, I was having a crappy day at the range, she would have probably won that one

 

[Tango down]

ombre noire:
please,give a try: it will be REALLY easier on the target with an adjustable iris mounted on a shooting google frame_ (we must remember that the once were 16yrs.boys drafted to mil.service, with teenager's eyes on iron sights...)_ that before considering ourselves limited to "scope-only" fun_
I hope "we" will see it_

wilecoyote
I am not sure I can digest the "adjustable iris" and the "shooting google frame" but I agree with the "16 year old eyes with iron sights", this was a while ago but I think I remember
I will email Mark today, to let him know of my new "idea"; he is just as nuts as me, so he will understand

 

[wilecoyote]

I've tried (once) to have 16yrs.eyes, but now I often try with ad.iris/irons: for sure isn't the same thing, but it's better than my shotgun-shaped groups "without it",anyway...

 

[btrapr]

I have had several Mosins and some of them were very impressive. Mosins are addictive and the price on them keeps creeping up.

Keep an eye out for Hungarian surplus as it is the most accurate surplus light ball I have found.

 

[GySgt20]

Excellent Video.... Thanks for sharing

 

[Tango down]

Excellent Video.... Thanks for sharing

Thanks Gunny, wasn't sure I liked the idea at the first place when my buddy showed up with his cameras but it turned out to be entertaining, he is good with a camera.