1970 lake city match ammo

Re: 1970 lake city match ammo

opinions vary, but looking at yahoo search i see it saying 175g and 173g, hpbt, no powder charge listed. im sure someone will know but look here while we wait...

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=lake+ci...mp;fr=yfp-t-892

this is one description i found

20 Round box of 7.62mm NATO The Real Deal M118, 7.62x51 Federal, HPBT, 175 Grain Sierra.

Sniper Ammo Headstamped F.C 2008. This ammo was manufactured for Federal by Lake City Arsenal and is the same spec as the L.C Headstamped ammo. Everyone says their ammo is "Match Grade" or designed for Snipers, well this is the real deal.

Federal M118 7.62x51 original US Military Sniper ammo 175 grain Sierra HPBT to be used in the M14, M24, M40A1 weapons systems, as well as all hunting and shooting applications where a super accurate round is called for.

Designed to shoot 10 inch groups at 1000 meters, so rare we only have a few boxes to sell. Sold in 20 Round boxs for your convenience, very limited supplies.

ive got 800 rounds once fired, but really dont know about the standard stuff
 
Re: 1970 lake city match ammo

not a clue guys, i tossed my old boxes. all my brass is spent. i do recalling when i was reading one the brass when i got mine that there was a change somewhere along the years. i always thought 168 was standard. i copied that deal from cheaper than dirt fwiw.
 
Re: 1970 lake city match ammo

Y'all need to consult those back issues of The American Rifleman.

Here's the history:

XM118 was developed starting something like 1957 or 58, but IIRC quantities and development didn't really get big until about 1962. Lake City and Frankfort Arsenal both made it. All M118 variants though the end of production sometime like 1988 or so was with a 173-grain, sometimes 174-grain FMJBT bullet which traces its origins to the original M1 Ball round in .30-06.

The FMJBT bullet was pretty much developed to the end of its capabilities by Lake City by the mid-1960s. Large-sample groups fired from the machine rest recoil on rails test barrels at 600 yards delivered increasingly small mean radius dispersions from the group center then, always beating the companion lots of M72 Match ammo in .30-06. Think the short fat powder column experiences of the PPC cartridges starting in, what? the mid-1970s or so?

Mean radius is generally about one-third of the extreme spread, but is a better measure of total accuracy because EVERY shot is measured, not just the two most extreme ones. Think whether you'd rather have a load that shoots .75 MOA "donuts" around your aimpoint, compared to another load which truly randomly spreads the shots all over the .75 MOA circle. M118 regularly scored MR in the 2.0 inch range, statistically significantly better than the .30-06 stuff. I personally don't believe the M118 going 100 fps slower than the M72 had anything to do with it.

One of the black marks of the Reagan era was de-funding some less popular military spending items like MATCH AMMO. The rise of the M16 didn't help, either. Congressional budget priorities tended to trim the military more than Reagan was proposing anyway, so M118 Match in the white box with red printing was replaced by the infamous "brown box" M118 "Special Ball" which was NOT that special. Some boxes (I have 1 or 2 with fired cases) were even white boxes with brown labels pasted over. Special Ball used regular crimped primer pocket cases which typically was headstamped L C __ __ with the blanks being the last two digits of the year. The characters were evenly spaced 90 degrees apart.

Note I am NOT describing any NATO quartered circle mark. M118 Special Ball was never NATO standard. Neither is current production M193 stuff rolling off of the lines these days, but those are just surplussed NATO cases being used to load commercial ammo after the military runs are done. Thus the last couple of boxes of Federal 55-grain stuff I bought had NATO-marked headstamps.

M118 was always headstamped with the LC or FA, the year of production (for the case at least), and MATCH opposite those other two marks which appeared on the "top" of the rotation. Some small lots were occasionally made with NM on the casehead, as production for the National Matches at Camp Perry.

Before M118 went out of production, the military teams took advantage of one wise budget-cutting device, something about off the shelf products, to get M852 Match ammo produced using the 168 SMK. Called M852 Match, it was originally thought to be illegal for combat use per the [insert pejorative insult to intelligence here] Hague Conventions prohibiting bullets *designed* to cause "superfluous" injury and some such other 1890s inflammatory terms.

M852 was always, to my knowledge, put up in cases with the same "MATCH" markings, but with an annular ring of shallow knurling about a half-inch up from the casehead. Reputed (long before Errornet rumors ever existed) to lead to shorter case life by allegedly weakening the case there, such is just not true in my experience. My over-resized and shot in a long chamber M852 cases failed starting on the 3rd reload with very, very safe 168 SMK charges, sometimes just ahead of the knurling, or usually just behind the knurling, but NEVER AT the knurling.

The boxes for M852 ammo had a blue-type "Not for Combat Use" warning on one side, and otherwise had a slightly updated look compared to the 1960s and 1970s M118 boxes.

Someone from my generation then came along, went to law school, joined the JAG Corps and finally generated a legal opinion that M852's open-tip match bullets were NOT equal to expanding hollow-point hunting bullets, and were therefore legal for combat use. If that was during the Clinton years, cheers for him. Almost every one of his successes came from co-opting conservative ideals and going along with...okay, politics over, but it IS gun-related.

M118LR then came along, using the 175-gr SMK. The rest is what most of us here are familiar with.

One thing that really chaps me about M118LR are the legends without any citation to military publication or reports that the first loads using more RL-15 than is "officially" recommended now was too high pressure in the heat of Iraq/Afghanistan and was bending op rods in M14 systems. Every time I run QuickLOAD, the port pressures predicted at 110F are still well below the 14,500 maximum (nominal the system is designed for is 12,500, and that's CUP) at 14.1 inches down the barrel. Might have run it to 120F and they were still predicted to be okay.
 
Re: 1970 lake city match ammo

IMHO, the best thing about that loaded round (if it's original) would be the brass. You should be able to work up a more consistent handload than the original using the '70 LC Match brass.

If you don't reload, sent me the spent brass.
 
Re: 1970 lake city match ammo

We use to use the M118 stuff. It worked ok in our 4 grove M14 barrels but when we started getting the 6 grove Barnet barrels they didn't fair well.

We then started making Mexican Match, pulling the 173s and inserting 168 SMKs for 200-600 and 180 SMKs (before sierra came out with the 175s) for 1000 yards.

The then came out with the M852s.

The four grove barrels didn't like the 168s and we didn't know what ammo we were going to get from year to year or how much of each.

I had to issue two rifles to the team memember, 4 grove for the M118 (which then came in brown boxes and was called Special Ball) and one with a 6 grove barrel for the M852.

Even then we mexican matched the M852 for use at 1000 yard service rifle matches.
 
Re: 1970 lake city match ammo

Y'all need to consult those back issues of The American Rifleman.

Here's the history:

XM118 was developed starting something like 1957 or 58, but IIRC quantities and development didn't really get big until about 1962. Lake City and Frankfort Arsenal both made it. All M118 variants though the end of production sometime like 1988 or so was with a 173-grain, sometimes 174-grain FMJBT bullet which traces its origins to the original M1 Ball round in .30-06.

The FMJBT bullet was pretty much developed to the end of its capabilities by Lake City by the mid-1960s. Large-sample groups fired from the machine rest recoil on rails test barrels at 600 yards delivered increasingly small mean radius dispersions from the group center then, always beating the companion lots of M72 Match ammo in .30-06. Think the short fat powder column experiences of the PPC cartridges starting in, what? the mid-1970s or so?

Mean radius is generally about one-third of the extreme spread, but is a better measure of total accuracy because EVERY shot is measured, not just the two most extreme ones. Think whether you'd rather have a load that shoots .75 MOA "donuts" around your aimpoint, compared to another load which truly randomly spreads the shots all over the .75 MOA circle. M118 regularly scored MR in the 2.0 inch range, statistically significantly better than the .30-06 stuff. I personally don't believe the M118 going 100 fps slower than the M72 had anything to do with it.

One of the black marks of the Reagan era was de-funding some less popular military spending items like MATCH AMMO. The rise of the M16 didn't help, either. Congressional budget priorities tended to trim the military more than Reagan was proposing anyway, so M118 Match in the white box with red printing was replaced by the infamous "brown box" M118 "Special Ball" which was NOT that special. Some boxes (I have 1 or 2 with fired cases) were even white boxes with brown labels pasted over. Special Ball used regular crimped primer pocket cases which typically was headstamped L C __ __ with the blanks being the last two digits of the year. The characters were evenly spaced 90 degrees apart.

Note I am NOT describing any NATO quartered circle mark. M118 Special Ball was never NATO standard. Neither is current production M193 stuff rolling off of the lines these days, but those are just surplussed NATO cases being used to load commercial ammo after the military runs are done. Thus the last couple of boxes of Federal 55-grain stuff I bought had NATO-marked headstamps.

M118 was always headstamped with the LC or FA, the year of production (for the case at least), and MATCH opposite those other two marks which appeared on the "top" of the rotation. Some small lots were occasionally made with NM on the casehead, as production for the National Matches at Camp Perry.

Before M118 went out of production, the military teams took advantage of one wise budget-cutting device, something about off the shelf products, to get M852 Match ammo produced using the 168 SMK. Called M852 Match, it was originally thought to be illegal for combat use per the [insert pejorative insult to intelligence here] Hague Conventions prohibiting bullets *designed* to cause "superfluous" injury and some such other 1890s inflammatory terms.

M852 was always, to my knowledge, put up in cases with the same "MATCH" markings, but with an annular ring of shallow knurling about a half-inch up from the casehead. Reputed (long before Errornet rumors ever existed) to lead to shorter case life by allegedly weakening the case there, such is just not true in my experience. My over-resized and shot in a long chamber M852 cases failed starting on the 3rd reload with very, very safe 168 SMK charges, sometimes just ahead of the knurling, or usually just behind the knurling, but NEVER AT the knurling.

The boxes for M852 ammo had a blue-type "Not for Combat Use" warning on one side, and otherwise had a slightly updated look compared to the 1960s and 1970s M118 boxes.

Someone from my generation then came along, went to law school, joined the JAG Corps and finally generated a legal opinion that M852's open-tip match bullets were NOT equal to expanding hollow-point hunting bullets, and were therefore legal for combat use. If that was during the Clinton years, cheers for him. Almost every one of his successes came from co-opting conservative ideals and going along with...okay, politics over, but it IS gun-related.

M118LR then came along, using the 175-gr SMK. The rest is what most of us here are familiar with.

One thing that really chaps me about M118LR are the legends without any citation to military publication or reports that the first loads using more RL-15 than is "officially" recommended now was too high pressure in the heat of Iraq/Afghanistan and was bending op rods in M14 systems. Every time I run QuickLOAD, the port pressures predicted at 110F are still well below the 14,500 maximum (nominal the system is designed for is 12,500, and that's CUP) at 14.1 inches down the barrel. Might have run it to 120F and they were still predicted to be okay.

I reckon I hit gold with this. I have two cases (920 rds each) of the LC M 852. got them from a buddy who used to teach SEALS long range. When he retired they presented him with a custom built rifle and 4 cases. He figured that was more than he needed so I ended up with 2 cases. Had them in storage for 10 years or so. I guess I need to shoot a few to see what Ive got.
 
FWIW, I've done some research Zedeker and reloading for the M-14. I've been following his practices regarding Brass case selection for the 308/7.62x52 NATO cartridge,. He uses IMI with no perceptible issues.
The way I do (did) it was purchasing new IMI® cases. These are okay in quality but just right in construction. Although there can be fair differences in LC cases, it’s right enough to say that the IMI® are the “same” thing. Same weight, same capacity, same strength, and, mostly, same performance from the same loads. I didn’t even change zeros using IMI® against the “same” handload on LC. They’re available with a “match” head stamp, but don’t put faith in that: they’re about same quality as LC.

I use my own once fired IMI 150 M-80 ball (NATO head stamps), and IMI 168gr Semi-Auto Match cases (Match Headstamps), with identical loads, and get identical performance. Once fired they are perfectly fireformed and ready for trim, primer crimp removal and flash hole reaming, deburr and chamfer.

FWIW, I really like my new Little Crow Trimmer 2.

I segregate the NATO headstamped brass for the Savage bolt gun, and the Match headstamped brass for the PA-10; that way, the fireforming remains properly matched to the individual guns.

FWIW, I find that the IMI 168 Semi-Auto Match fires and functions quite nicely in my PSA PA-10 20" Upper, and Savage 11VT 24" bolt rifle, and both perform perfectly in conjunction with the Bushnell 4.5-18 AR Drop Zone 308 BDC scopes at out to as far as my local 300yd/meter range can manage.

Alas, this entire line of scopes is dropped from further production by Bushnell. I have one mounted on each of all of my serious 223, 6.5 Grendel (the 308 reticle is right on at least out to 500yd), 260 Remington (the 6.5CM Reticle is also a perfect fit), and 308 rifles, nine in all.

Their passing will be greatly missed by at least this one Bushnell customer.

Greg