20" SS MWS range repot

[m1ajunkie]

I would like to first say I have been in contact with LMT about some tooling marks that are present in my mws barrel. I was told to shoot the barrel to see if it shot up to my standards before taking any action.

I made it out to the local 100yd range today to do just that. Sight it in and check groups.

Rifle:

Using the rifle as pictured above I shot groups at 100 yds using a harris bipod up front and a rear bag.

First group of the day with wwb q3130 147gr nato ammo from 06. I fired the 5 circled in red and proceeded to adjust 1 min left and that was my zero for the day.

Then I proceeded on to shooting american eagle m1a 168gr bthp ammo. This is when the first issue became present, the first round out of almost every group ended up being roughly 2" high.

A second 10 round group of the american eagle 168's

I started with 39 gr imr 4895 with a 178gr amax loaded to 2.8".

39gr group

Then I was satisfied this was a good place to start and moved up to 40 grs

40.5grs

I stopped the loads with 178's at 41grs of imr 4895

Then decided to try out some of my 168gr loads over 41gr of imr 4895. These are only 5 round groups because I was not really planning to shoot any of these.

ETA: This is with 168gr smk bullets.

The best of these groups was at 41.5grs
41.5gr

The last of the groups with the 168's was 43gr of imr 4895

I am not entirely satisfied with this barrel as my 16cl barrel shot just as good for half the price. I am hoping lmt will take care of me.

However, I am not an expert by any means, but I am able to shoot 1moa and less groups with my ar15 sdm build and 77gr handloads in the same conditions.

Here is the best pic of the marks in the barrel I could get:

All in all it was a great day at the range, but I am not happy just yet. I feel the 20" ss barrel has potential, but not with the marks in it that mine has.

I also asked two very experienced shooters there opinions. Both seemed to agree that something was off and thought of things such as loose optic mounts, optic problems or just something loose in general. I didn't have time to go into my whole story, but they agreed something wasn't right after shooting it for themselves.

 

[greentimber]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

Get some Federal GMM 168 and 175 gr. If it won't shoot MOA or better with one of those I'd say the barrel is highly suspect. I wouldn't use American Eagle for my accuracy validation.

 

[jpach]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

Thats really too bad. I too have/had marks in my 16" CLd barrel and also contacted LMT about it and received the same response. Luckily, mine seems to shoot well.

Your results are pretty disappointing : / . DPMS barrels shoot better than that. I would definitely ask for a replacement.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

Looks like a lot of vertical stringing. The horizontal spread seems good. I would suggest a couple of things, first get some Federal GMM like the previous poster. Then make sure your loading your bipod correctly.

Also how are you using your LMT 2 stage trigger? When I first got mine I was used to a single stage and I started my pull from the beginning breaking through the second stage in one movement. Once I took up the slack made sure the cross hair was on then I broke the second stage and did a follow through things started to rock.

I dont think you can load AMAX to mag length and expect to get good groups but I may be wrong. My best M1A load that I had severly sucked in my gun. My best loads so far has been with Federal GMM and a hand load of 175g SMKs over 45g varget with Winchester brass. This is a consistant .55-.65 loading with the CL barrel.

I was not happy with the Black hills match ammo that I had but now I look back it was probly me. I am hopefully going to get out to the range tomorrow and Ill try another box to confirm.

BTW I would send it back, if you have the other barrel what do you have to lose?

 

[Long_Range]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

Try a front and rear rest and Federal GMM 168(as suggested above). I believe large chassis ARs are more difficult to shoot accurately than AR15s. Using a bipod will not give you accurate results if your form is not perfect.
Also, try letting a known excellent shooter shoot it for groups too. If it won't shoot for several shooters, you have a better idea of the potential of the barrel.
Good luck.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

I have used two stage triggers much more than single stage, both my sdm .223 ar and my colt 6920 are both using gieselle ssa's. I pull through the first stage, then stop before it breaks and when all is good apply pressure until it breaks.

Loading the bipod was an issue today due to the somewhat slick top of the shooting bench I was on. If a lane was open to shoot prone, thats what I would have done but all were taken.

The two additional shooters I was talking two and who ultimatly test fired my rifle are excellent shots. I have shot against both in our local matches and both have won the long range competitions on various occasions I have been. One mentioned that barrel break in was key, which is something I have never done to my rifles. The other said not to draw conclusions from one day at the range, which I totally agree with but I needed to come up with some info to provide lmt when I call monday to check back in.

I believe I would be much more satisfied if lmt would swap out my barrel, even if I have to wait again. I know I can shoot better and have in the past, today was just not what I expected.

As far as the 178gr amax's, I had the cartridge overall length between 2.8 and 2.804. The hornady load manual 7th edition said 2.8" was where I needed to be, but if the 178's are not what I need to be shooting in a gas gun it would be fine to drop down to 175gr smk's.

ETA: Thanks for the input so far.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

Also, I am thinking of putting the NF scope in badger rings.

Would I be okay to go with med high rings? I have been searching in the optics stickies and it seems like the med high are good for a 50mm is objective and a 30mm tube, correct?

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

FWIW the first day I shot mine was on a concrete bench the bipod slide around and I could not get behind the gun correctly. Most of my groups were similar to yours.

The next time out I went in the am on a weekday and got to go prone. Thats when I could get behind the gun and most of my groups were MOA or better. I also had my good handloads which I stated worked very well.

The statement about the AMAX is that the ogive is different than most bullets. Maybe the 178 is different, but the 75 grain AMAX is single loaded at highpower matches. Even some bolt guns magazines require up to .060 to jump to the lans when it works best for most rifles at <.010. I have only loaded Hornady match bullets in my auto loaders because of this.

Good luck with LMT on Monday.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

I think I have seen MWSs with the 1.375 unimount with the 50MM bell and they where close. The Badgers medium high are 1.0" and seem to be a bit low. But there is a 20 MOA cant built in to the NF mount.

 

[spr1]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

I have found shooting with bipods off benches is not very productive, at least for me. Also, with an AR pattern gun and needing a tall bipod for mag clearance, you will be sitting very erect and not putting much shoulder pressure on. If anyone else shoots the same set up, regardless of skill level, they are fighting the same dynamics. The .308 pattern guns are much less forgiving of form, and I believe specifically shoulder pressure. This time of year is also not conducive to uniform shoulder pressure due to bulky clothes (depending on your local conditions).
The Larue mount should take firm pressure to close.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

I have decided that I would like to have at least one more range trip with the rifle to shoot prone using this ammo:

FGMM 175's

FGMM 168's

M118lr pd (stuff I have from a couple years ago)

Load up 178gr amax's with 40.5gr and 41gr of imr 4895, if you exclude the fliers in those groups they shot the best.

As far as the mount, the larue is tight, I have decided there is no need for the qd mount on this rifle.

I am looking at the NF unimount now and like it because of the 20 moa cant it has.

Would this be the correct unimount? Using the midway sizing chart it looks like the high should be good to go.

[url="http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=342977"]http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=342977[/url]

 

[spr1]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

That looks like the low mount you linked to, 1.125 to center. I think the high or 1.375" would be the way to go. I selected that mount for my MWS and I am happy with it, although I would have preferred just a little more height.

 

[RG in Idaho]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

On my MWS, I have a 40mm leupy mounted in the 1.375 unimount. I have 3/8" left from the top of the rail to the bottom of the plastic scope cap.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

What SP1 said go with the 1.375 I have the 1.125 on mine but it is the NF 2.5-10 with a 32MM objective. it is still to low to use BUIS but I really dont need them with the MRDS thats going on it.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

I was wrong on the 178 Amax, some guys are shooting them out of LWRC REPRs and having good luck. I guess the jump does'nt bother them.

 

[saryan]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

I would try it without the bipod. Just to rule that out. Bag the crap out of it. My CL barrel shot better than that one. My load was 44.4 of RL15 with the 175 SMK, win brass, fed 210M. Mine never liked the 178 AMAX's. Rock barrels shoot super good. I don't understand why that one wouldn't.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Aryan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would try it without the bipod. Just to rule that out. Bag the crap out of it. My CL barrel shot better than that one. My load was 44.4 of RL15 with the 175 SMK, win brass, fed 210M. Mine never liked the 178 AMAX's. Rock barrels shoot super good. I don't understand why that one wouldn't. </div></div>

The main reason I am skeptical is that it has the tooling marks just into the rifling. I feel like this is not a good thing and could be leading to my fliers.

 

[TallShot]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1ajunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Aryan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would try it without the bipod. Just to rule that out. Bag the crap out of it. My CL barrel shot better than that one. My load was 44.4 of RL15 with the 175 SMK, win brass, fed 210M. Mine never liked the 178 AMAX's. Rock barrels shoot super good. I don't understand why that one wouldn't. </div></div>

The main reason I am skeptical is that it has the tooling marks just into the rifling. I feel like this is not a good thing and could be leading to my fliers. </div></div>


Wouldn't it affect all the shots, not just the first round flier?

And as others have said, I would try some factory match ammo before passing judgement. That barrel just may not like those particular hand-loads that you used.

 

[saryan]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1ajunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Aryan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would try it without the bipod. Just to rule that out. Bag the crap out of it. My CL barrel shot better than that one. My load was 44.4 of RL15 with the 175 SMK, win brass, fed 210M. Mine never liked the 178 AMAX's. Rock barrels shoot super good. I don't understand why that one wouldn't. </div></div>

The main reason I am skeptical is that it has the tooling marks just into the rifling. I feel like this is not a good thing and could be leading to my fliers. </div></div>
I understand. I'm just saying rule out any other possiblity. Gas guns on a bipod are a little tricky sometimes.

 

[Prairie Dog Dundee]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

Sorry to see your having problems with the new barrel. I know many of us who own the MWS have been looking forward to seeing a report on the SS barrel. Like Steve I have had better results with the CL barrel. I'm looking forward to seeing how you do with the new loads.

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[BCP]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

168 and 178 amax jump fine. Work better with jump for me. SMK's I was told jump great but never had luck with them at anything under 2.82 COAL.

Maybe your SS 20" barrel just needs to be shot a bit? I don't see how marks in the barrel would cause occasional fliers. I've had barrels with messed up rifling/crowns and it wasn't an occasional thing they were shotguns.

 

[zink14]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

You are running too many variables to assume you have identified a root cause, you came into this with an assumption the rifle would not shoot, and that can bias your results all be it not on purpose, I have seen it a hundred times in reverse, give a shooter a load tell them it is the best load ever (in reality it is the same load they have been shooting) and voila their group shrinks....

What are you doing wrong:

Shooting Shit ammo (147, 168 american eagle)
Shooting Handloads (no way to know if it is ammo/ or rifle causing bad groups)

1) get an unbiased shooter
2) get proven ammo, ie Black hills or FGMM
3) shoot and observe results & make assumptions

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

I have to admit, I feel like I am biased in my opinion.

The main issue I have at the moment is the cost of this barrel, vs having some kind of tooling marks in the barrel. I would like to be open minded, but I will always be wondering in the back of my mind how this barrel would shoot if it was perfect.

I used the 168gr ae m1a rounds because I have a lot of them left from when I had the 16" CL barrel. I could shoot them into 1moa groups under basically the same conditions. The weather was warmer, but the same set up.

As far as the first round fliers, I'm not sure what's causing that. However I can see how the tooling marks could lead to some of the other fliers in the group.

I contacted lmt today, they were very helpful and said I could send it back and they would evaluate it and let me know what they find. If they find it is good to go, maybe include a test target, I would then be satisfied that the barrel is good to go and I am the issue. I feel like lmt is going to take care of me and I'm confident that the SS barrels will shoot.

I agree that one trip to the range is not going to give me an accurate depiction of what the barrel has to offer, but if LMT is willing to work with me I would like to take advantage of that and get the best barrel I can.

 

[spr1]

Re: 20" SS MWS range repot

For what it's worth, my 16" SS shoots like crap (about 2moa) with the Federal 168 M1A load that shoots well for some others. But with 175 SMK's handloaded it makes the bullet holes almost all intersect except when I realize I did something stupid (pilot error). So, some variety in diet may result in happiness.