2018 SHOT Show (ELR-Specific): Day 4 (Friday, Jan 26, 2018)

[ELR researcher]

2018 SHOT Show (ELR-Specific): Day 4 (Friday, Jan 26, 2018):

See intro comments/context at the beginning of the Day 1 post. Last day, shorter day (earlier close), lots of booths, but I made it with a bit of time to spare. To Day 4…

First the NNs (sorry for any dups) - Accurate-Mag, Alexander Arms, Alliant Powder, Best D… Gun, Blaser USA, Boyds Gunstock, Caracal USA, Celestron, Cerakote, Dillon Precision, Eberlestock, Feddersen, Fierce Arms, Griffin, Harris (bipods), Huskemaw, Hyskore, JP Enterprises, Kowa, LimbSaver, MagnetoSpeed, Millett, PGZ, PPU, Precision Hardcore Gear, Proof Research, Protektor, RAUG Ammotec USA (I think), Rudolph Optics, Tangent Theta, Trigger Tech, and Weaver Optics.

Accu-Tac – was showing the “HD-50” bipod; full-feature, very heavy structure, intended for .50 BMG-weight-class rifles; MAP of $408, shipping late Jan/Feb.

AG Composites – was showing a couple of their new 100% carbon fiber stocks, the “Prairie Varmint” (beaver-tail forearm) and the “Vertical” (straight-side forearm); both are in-house design, include a Pachmayr Decelerator pad, and come in a Rem 700 LA inlet (flat top models by the end of the year); available now (through resellers), MSRP of $540. Very interestingly, they claim to be using aerospace production tech which is superior to that used by the more-well-recognized, major brands (who air cure their CF models) - they used that tech to win Barrett’s Fieldcraft stock contract. They further claim their stocks to be a step above their competitor (3rd/top tier in a three-tier world – Manners and McMillan Fiberglass being 2nd tier). I was hoping to receive a detailed description of the tech that makes their products better but have yet to receive it.

American Reserve Munitions - has partnered with Dynamic Research to produce Dynamic Research's "Predator" line of turned brass solid, ELR/VLD bullets; the product line will include bullets in .338, .375, .408, .416, .458, and .510 calibers; the 236 gr .338 is the first to ship (MSRP $1.10/each, shipping now); the next, in approx 2 months, will be either the .375 or .510 (recent expressed demand for the .510 may push it ahead of the currently-panned .375); the .338 bullet will be used in Predator-branded, .338 LM ammo (shipping now, MSRP $5.99/round - GWT brass, CCI long rifle magnum primers, and Retumbo powder, 3100 fps MV from a 26" barrel, https://armunitions.com/product/338lapua-236gr-predator/); .375 (or .510) ammo will follow in about 3 months (the "loser" shipping in June).

Annealing Made Right – was demonstrating their new “Aztec mode” software app that allows the end user to analyze their brass (100% sampling process) and, based on that analysis, both cull out less desirable cases and create a custom annealing profile – vs sending brass samples down under for analysis and profile development; $250 for current machine owners (downloadable software upgrade) or a $250 option with new machines (all new machines will ship with the app installed and either turned on or locked – those that don’t purchase during machine purchase can purchase a key through their major resellers at a future time); required software patches will be provided free of charge. The app will be available in March.

David Tubb - spoke with him as he was a captive audience (sitting outside the show entry doors getting his shoes shined). I asked him about the possibility of him providing/selling the rim-rebated 375 CT brass he and Team Tubb have been using. He replied that he doesn't feel that cartridge is optimal for ELR (incomplete case fill and an extreme spread/ES higher than he wants)…and is looking into alternatives. He is so convinced that there is a more optimal solution that he is now working with Peterson Brass to develop a new case/cartridge. The design he is (currently) considering would have 1xx grain case capacity, a better case fill, and fit...the .338 LM bolt face. The expected result, low, single-digit, ES. He is also considering providing (or through Peterson providing) formed brass. He would also supply dies (7/8-14 thread dies). Before Ko2M? We'll see.

Freedom Armory - was showing the "Dragoon 338" Ti suppressor (end-user takedown; very quick and slick, quick-attach design with a parallel-bevel feature that insures perfect alignment without threads in the suppressor; included muzzle brake; MSRP of $1495 with one barrel-thread interface; additional interfaces for additional barrel-thread patterns have an MSRP of $165; both shipping in March).

Horus Vision - released two new spotter scope reticles, the Tremor4 and the H322 - already available in the Bushnell Elite Tactical - https://www.horusvision.com

Innovative Arms - expects to be shipping a quick-detach version of its .338 LM-rated suppressor in February.

iota - has a new stock model, the "Klutch"; carbon fiber (CF) core, molded-in color, adjustable cheekpiece (via set screw), small ambi thumb rests, flat-top or inletted (including Rem 700 LA/clones and Stiller TAC338); available in April with an MSRP of $749 - https://iotaoutdoors.com/iota-catalog.pdf

Jagemann – was showing .338 LM brass, which they say is expected to be shipping in Feb/Mar through major resellers.

Kestrel – was showing the new 5700 (basic) meter with integrated AB; see http://kestrelinstruments.com/ballistics-shooting for a nice comparison chart (comparison to the current 5700 Elite); at a MAP of $399 (compared to a MAP of $599), looks like a real winner; shipping Feb 15.

Leapers/UTG - has released two new "Recon Flex" bipods, the TL-BPDM02 (M-LOK-attach) and TL-BPDK02 (Keymod-attach), both are 8-12" height - http://www.leapers.com/index.php?mitem=bipod&mtrack=m

Lehigh Defense - was showing its new 353 gr, .375 caliber, match, copper solid bullet (# 04375), which shipping soon; they were also showing models in their new line of Ti-tipped "Flash Tip" bullets - the 240 gr, .338 and the 338 gr, .375 - https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/match-solid Sniper Extreme was also displaying in their booth - showing their ammo with Lehigh Defense Flash Tip bullets - http://www.sniperextreme.com/operational-ammunition.html

Minox – advised they have a new model for long range shooters, the 5-25x56 ZE-LR; FFP, 34mm tube, shipping in Mar/Apr at an MSRP of approximately $2200.

OSS Suppressors - introduced the "HX-QD Magnum Ti" model in .338 caliber (.338 LM rated, quick-disconnect, new end cap, "lighter, shorter, quieter", shipping in Feb, MSRP $1599).

Primary Arms Optics - announced the 6-30x56, "Athena BPR Mil" scope, ACSS reticle - https://www.facebook.com/primaryarm...1827.115702531787227/1806717459352384/?type=3

Stocky's - announced three, own-brand, Rem 700 LA and clone model stocks: (1) the A5-ish "STS', MSRP of $699 - https://www.stockysstocks.com/stocky-s-adjustable-target-stock-sts.html?___SID=U ; (2) the "M50" with integrated aluminum bedding block, MSRP of $300 - https://www.stockysstocks.com/stock...ge-accublock-laminated-m50-remington-700.html , and (3) the Manners EH1-ish "LRC", also with an integrated aluminum bedding block and MSRP of $200 - https://www.stockysstocks.com/stock...ccublocks/stockys-lrc-accublock-finished.html

Swagger – was showing its “Precision Series” bipods, more conventional design than the original, full-featured, three leg lengths up to 24” fully extended; MSRP of $349-379; video on their FB page (https://www.facebook.com/swaggerbipods ).

Timney – was showing their new (Rem) “700 BR” benchrest trigger, pull as light as 2 oz, MAP of $204, available in Feb.

Velocity Triggers - is planning on releasing a Rem 700 model; adjustable pull (2-4#), various trigger shoes (straight and curved, each either smooth or serrated), and a safety that can be engaged after firing a round, before loading another round; available by the NRA show with an MSRP of approximately $120.

Western Powders – released “Ramshot LRT” (long range target) powder; specifically targeted at .338 LM shooters, its burn rate is very similar to Retumbo, shipping now.

 

[Fursniper]

Another thanks for these reviews, really puts it all in a nutshell. I look forward to these every year.

 

[Tjfarmer]

Thanks appreciate the reviews. 338 brass that’s as good as Lapua for less then half, we can hope...lol

 

[bohem]

There was a new Flatline released as well.

400gr 375 offering in the Flatlines.
G7 BC was tentatively measured at 0.555 avg.
We are taking the bullets to a Doppler facility because the place that Hornady was so kind to test them on last year can't handle the speed and BC combo that the 400gr bullet turns into with the 375 Warner cartridge.

 

[ELR researcher]

Bohem:

Warner's 400 gr Flatline was reported on Day 1. The tentative G7 BC was not. Thanks.

Now...what's this about a Warner .375 "cartridge"?

 

[ELR researcher]

In subsequent e-mail communications with Jagemann (senior sales management), I was unable to confirm their statement regarding a MAP of $1.00 each for the upcoming Jagemann .338 Lapua Magnum cartridge cases. I was advised that their brass will not be available from Midway. Finally, I was unable to confirm the comparability of Jagemann product quality to Lapua product quality. I have revised my original post accordingly, SHOT Show Day 4.

 

[Alan Warner]

ELR researcher:
"Now...what's this about a Warner .375 "cartridge"?"


What would you like to know? Building 5 of them right now among other chamberings for customers.
Working out the last set ups and inspections on an incremental, positive stop elevating scope rail system also.
Pinned locations @ "0", 30, 60 90, and 120 minutes. Topped with a 20 minute rail. True angular positions are reporting @
+ - 6 seconds and max deviation is 13 seconds. Only one position has that much.

Alan

 

[THEIS]

ELR researcher:
Working out the last set ups and inspections on an incremental, positive stop elevating scope rail system also.
Pinned locations @ "0", 30, 60 90, and 120 minutes. Topped with a 20 minute rail. True angular positions are reporting @
+ - 6 seconds and max deviation is 13 seconds. Only one position has that much.
Alan

Hi Alan,

This sounds great!!! How similar/different is it from the old model Ivey adjustable rail; where the rail had 6 or so preset positions for adjustments?

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[lash]

Wow! ELR goodness coming from Warner.

 

[Alan Warner]

Hi Alan,

This sounds great!!! How similar/different is it from the old model Ivey adjustable rail; where the rail had 6 or so preset positions for adjustments?

Sincerely,
THEIS

I'm not familiar with the Ivey to know.

 

[jbailey]

Wow! ELR goodness coming from Warner.

Roger that. I had a chance to see the 375 Warner cartridge and it is something. The ballistics it produces are impressive to say the least. Guys that want the ultimate in ELR might have found their cartridge ... and then putting the new 400gr 375 Flatline in it, all the better. Said guys can not be on a budget however

Great stuff Dan, Alan, and Josh. It has been fun to see your work produce these products.

 

[DTubb]

ELR,
After further research have decided to do a couple of cases. Long and Short.
Stay in touch
Dtubb

 

[ELR researcher]

ELR researcher:
"Now...what's this about a Warner .375 "cartridge"?"


What would you like to know? Building 5 of them right now among other chamberings for customers.
Working out the last set ups and inspections on an incremental, positive stop elevating scope rail system also.
Pinned locations @ "0", 30, 60 90, and 120 minutes. Topped with a 20 minute rail. True angular positions are reporting @
+ - 6 seconds and max deviation is 13 seconds. Only one position has that much.

Alan

Sorry to be so late on seeing and replying...

I'll stick with the 375 Warner to avoid mixing "products". So, what would I like to know...

1. Parent case?
standard rim or rebated (like David's)
2. Case capacity (H2O)?
3. Case length?
4. Primer - LR Magnum or .50 BMG?
5. Performance expectations (MV) using your new 400 gr bullet?
6. Support gear (and associated lead times):
a. reamers (or only Warner-built barreled actions/full-build rifles - if so, expected lead time for a barreled action)?
b. dies (thread spec), and
c. brass - unique head stamp or formed?

 

[ELR researcher]

ELR,
After further research have decided to do a couple of cases. Long and Short.
Stay in touch
Dtubb

David:

Just happy that you didn't come on this forum and berate me for reporting things you might not have wanted to get out there. I've got your card in hand and just set it on my To-Do stack for tomorrow.

Best regards and thanks for your share.

 

[Alan Warner]

Sorry to be so late on seeing and replying...

I'll stick with the 375 Warner to avoid mixing "products". So, what would I like to know...

1. Parent case?
standard rim or rebated (like David's)
2. Case capacity (H2O)?
3. Case length?
4. Primer - LR Magnum or .50 BMG?
5. Performance expectations (MV) using your new 400 gr bullet?
6. Support gear (and associated lead times):
a. reamers (or only Warner-built barreled actions/full-build rifles - if so, expected lead time for a barreled action)?
b. dies (thread spec), and
c. brass - unique head stamp or formed?

ELR:
50 BMG, using RWS, 235g H2O, RWS primer, 3500 w/361, 3350 w/400 We have two new powders made specifically for this. Yet to test. Hoping for
more velocity at reasonable pressures. Loads above are topped out w/ only 95% load density. H50 BMG, 35" bbl.
Have not released the reamer print.
Brass takes 13 steps, internal expanding, anneal, closing down and neck turn. Expensive, lot of work.
Radial shoulder, brass oal is 3.310 (chamber is 3.320) I'm running .019 neck walls.
Dies are made to order --50 cal size, 1.5/12
Chambering is all done here for now. 4 to 8 weeks when barrels are on hand.

Alan

 

[precisionrifleman]

I thought the 50bmg case was only good up to the 55k psi mark?! With that much work going into each piece of brass wouldn't you want the pockets to hold up longer?

 

[TripleBull]

50 BMG, using RWS, 235g H2O, RWS primer, 3500 w/361, 3350 w/400 We have two new powders made specifically for this.

[Big happy grin]

 

[ELR researcher]

ELR:
50 BMG, using RWS, 235g H2O, RWS primer, 3500 w/361, 3350 w/400 We have two new powders made specifically for this. Yet to test. Hoping for
more velocity at reasonable pressures. Loads above are topped out w/ only 95% load density. H50 BMG, 35" bbl.
Have not released the reamer print.
Brass takes 13 steps, internal expanding, anneal, closing down and neck turn. Expensive, lot of work.
Radial shoulder, brass oal is 3.310 (chamber is 3.320) I'm running .019 neck walls.
Dies are made to order --50 cal size, 1.5/12
Chambering is all done here for now. 4 to 8 weeks when barrels are on hand.

Alan

Alan - finally, someone else (presumably) that thinks going .50 BMG-base-case makes sense. Your numbers look very conservative. I suspect you'll see 3500-3600 for the 400 - IF you go long throat and step up to at least a 42" barrel.

Questions:

1. Any plans to go to a longer barrel (42-45")?
2. Are the two new powders going to be commercially available in channel? On the manufacturer's official roadmap?
3. I'm assuming by "new" (powders) you mean new to the world, not just something already out there but "different". Correct?
4. Radial shoulder...more brass working and it will, I suspect, look great but of demonstrated value (i.e., actual not just theoretical)?
5. Reamer print...hm, are you planning on releasing it to the public?
6. Considering all that brass working, seems an interesting opportunity for Peterson to make room for some larger equipment. In discussions?
7. BTW, development using the Barnard GP with full .50 BMG bolt face diameter? [You didn't mention rebated rim, so this is what I'm assuming.]
8. When do we get to see pics?

 

[Alan Warner]

Alan - finally, someone else (presumably) that thinks going .50 BMG-base-case makes sense. Your numbers look very conservative. I suspect you'll see 3500-3600 for the 400 - IF you go long throat and step up to at least a 42" barrel.

Questions:

1. Any plans to go to a longer barrel (42-45")?
2. Are the two new powders going to be commercially available in channel? On the manufacturer's official roadmap?
3. I'm assuming by "new" (powders) you mean new to the world, not just something already out there but "different". Correct?
4. Radial shoulder...more brass working and it will, I suspect, look great but of demonstrated value (i.e., actual not just theoretical)?
5. Reamer print...hm, are you planning on releasing it to the public?
6. Considering all that brass working, seems an interesting opportunity for Peterson to make room for some larger equipment. In discussions?
7. BTW, development using the Barnard GP with full .50 BMG bolt face diameter? [You didn't mention rebated rim, so this is what I'm assuming.]
8. When do we get to see pics?

Oscar:
1. I think a longer bbl would offer some benefits.
2. the powder was designed for this cartridge. If it works, it will become a commercial offering.
3. See 2 above
4. Based on "other " pressure vessel values, the radial shoulder offers an advantageous gas flow. Kind of like living vicariously as Wheatherby.
It may only be a fart in church.
5. Undecided
6. I don't think this will ever make it to being a commercial round, but who knows?
7. Yes, Std. 50 face
8. There is an image of a loaded round at the end of the video of me making the brass on our web site.

Actually, I think this should be able to make 3600 plus once the right combinations of powder, bbl length and kriptonite cases evolve.

Alan

 

[ELR researcher]

Long throat?

And, always a teaser..."kryptonite cases" - assume you mean the shape, not a new brass manufacturer. Correct?

 

[ELR researcher]

I spoke with David Tubb earlier today as a follow-up to our conversation at SHOT Show 2018 regarding his pending design for an “optimal cartridge” for ELR shooting.

Perspective - David is very clear that there is room for advancement in ELR shooting (ELRC-style, out to 2 miles). He feels it is important to reach a much wider group of accomplished shooters, many of whom he believes have concerns about needing to step up to a CT-class rifle and support infrastructure to compete. Specifically, he wants a cartridge design that will utilize fairly standard reloading gear, think reloading with 7/8-14 dies and a standard reloading press.

Design - While there had been some consideration of possibly having both a “short” and a “long” cartridge, things have started to gel around just the “long” design. His current “long” design revolves around a .338 LM-bolt-face configuration, which, in comparison to the .338 LM, will have the same rim and base dimensions, significantly less body taper, .350 longer body section, 30 degree shoulder, and a .065 longer neck – resulting in a .415 longer case and a capacity in the range of 125-130 gr. [Obviously not a .338 LM Imp.] This design is not intended to be mag-fed. [As best I know, this matches the realization that few, if any, competitive ELR shooters are loading out of a magazine – think loading block, probably not an actual single-shot action.] Dave expects his new design to yield SDs of less than or equal to 5 fps and that it will work great in his recently announced Tubb ® “Adaptive Target Rifle/ATR” – what Team Tubb will be shooting at the 2018 Ko2M.

Infrastructure – David will be releasing his reamer to Dave Manson Precision Reamers, and Dave will offer the reamers. “Superior Shooting Systems/SSS”/DavidTubb.com will be offering A7 tool steel body resizing dies which will include David’s unique, integral neck/shoulder sizing bushings - which size both the shoulder and neck, thus supporting the use of .338 or .375 caliber bullets by just picking the appropriate bushing. [The current cartridge design envisions using a .338 caliber neck diameter, easily enlarged to .375 with one stroke of the press.] David will also be offering formed brass (manufactured by Peterson but sold exclusively thru SSS). Finally - after David briefly mentioned a new bullet design - he responded to my question about offering loaded ammo, “Probably.” During the subsequent loaded-ammo discussion, he noted that his automated ammo loading line utilizes “load sensors” to measure and separate loaded ammo based on seating pressure. That tech notwithstanding, he mentioned that, when loading with very good bullets (very consistent length bullets), measuring cartridge OAL will also point out differences in neck tension, as spring back will cause rounds with different neck tensions to also show different cartridge OALs. So (tip)…final sort by cartridge OAL (group within +/- .0015”).

When – Everything except ammo before the 2018 Ko2M (July 2-4). How many teams are expected to be shooting the new cartridge at Ko2M? “A handful.”

New bullet…hopefully in the next round of conversation.

 

[Dan Warner]

Here is a quick shot of the 375WTC. Left is a fired piece of brass and right is with a 400g Flatline seated deep (for the 361g chamber).