PRS Talk 2021 Mammoth Sniper Challange

[Lunar95]

After spending several months getting all the gear and crap together to try and hype myself up for mammoth 2021 iv been able to gather pretty much everything and started rucking/cardio. Lucky iv been into strength training for the better part of 2 years now so im feeling pretty confident physically. The 2 other areas I have left where i'm in uncharted territory is sleep system and clothing, iv made a post and poked a few people for opinions on the sleep system.

I have a 30 degree sea to summit bag, snug pack bivy, thermarest pad and a tarp. Im debating getting an enlighten equipment 20 degree quilt and a tent over a tarp but i think tha's just going to be eventual preference.

For clothing i'm kinda at a loss and where id like some help. Right now I have perfectly fine boots that I very much trust, some standard 5.11 stryker pants, uf pro light jacket and my full (pants/jacket) layer 6 issued gortex I plan to bring.
This clearly wont be enough, I plan to add 2 layer 1 shirts and a 1 layer 2 thermal shirt, and maybe a layer 1 pair of pants.

Would a layer 1 shirt, layer 2 thermal, light jacket and layer 6 gortex being enough to stay warm? I'm really not sure how cold it gets, I don't want to pack the full wardrobe or spend $600 on layers I don't need but I also really don't want to go in freezing to death. Brand preference is also welcomed. Im thinking a poly base layer and a wool thermal.

Also got 3 pairs of exofficio underware, 4 pairs of darn tough wool socks and minus 33 beanie, also probably bringing something to wrap my neck and face with, like a veil or whatever I can find.

I very much appreciate all the input I can get.

 

[never_summer]

Man I was fully prepared for it to be cold, but this last year the weather shot up right before the event. Wait until closer in to see what the forecast will be. I brought two short sleeve shirts, one long sleeve, and two pairs of pants. The second shirt to sleep in. I had an extra pair of pants just in case, and the main thing was a change of underwear and socks for each day. Experimented for the event and wore a pair of liner socks the whole time and they may have helped or hurt me on the hot spot i got on my foot. I didn’t train with the liner sock before hand and had no issues. Mole skinned a section before it turned into a full on blister and everything was ok. The first ruck I wore a short sleeve and long sleeve shirt, but once I got moving it was a total regret. I didn’t want to even wear my hat on the rucks

My bag was a Kelty sine 35 and had all the vents open sleeping at night. Teammate and I went for straight comfort on the tent with a 3 person big agnes tiger wall ul3. We both still came in under 50lbs each on our packs, roughly 45lbs including firearms.

 

[RogueTanker]

This year will be my third time doing it. Last two years the weather has been super warm and who knows what it'll be next time.

Lighter is better, but pick your battles. I chose a osprey 70l for the extra support and comfort. It was nice being able to just throw everything in without packing. My partner chose the 50l version and ran just fine.

Good boots and socks are absolutely worth it. I only brought two shorts and one pair of pants. It's two and a half days,I can deal with that. Plenty of socks and underwear though.

Remember, ounces make pounds and pounds make pain. We started at 43 & 45 lbs, ended at close to 30 after food and ammo usage, made the last ruck easy.

Boots- Moab 2. Awesome and lightweight. No blisters at all.

Socks- darn tough 100%

 

[TACC]

Great info, and experience/ knowledge, thankd

 

[NGCSUGrad09]

Convertible pants with a softshell material were great, just 1 pair. Two shirts to rotate, as a dry shirt was a treat with the excessive humidity and sweating. I have a sun hoody that was money for sun protection but not too hot or heavy. Bring 2-3 pairs of socks to rotate.

Have a plan for it to get cold, but don't be afraid to change at the last minute. We dumped layers and some extra calories we had planned to stay warm, but cut the weight since it was warm. Your wet weather stuff makes a great windbreaker or extra layer if you get a chill.

 

[RTH1800]

I have not done this shoot and doubt I ever will.
I do find it fascinating. I have done a lot of worldwide backpack mountain hunting

One thing I notice in these Mammoth threads is the focus on comfort. If I were doing it I would gear it more toward survival.

Go light, certainly no tent. Doubtful even a tarp unless rain is predicted. One set extra underwear and sox. Rotate.

Watch forecast immediately prior to launch. Tune load for that regarding rain gear, sleeping set up, over clothing etc.Short term weather forecast are very accurate today.

I would go very light on food and no cooking, dining stuff. Think trail mix, pouch packed salmon, tuna. Chocolate bars, M&M’s etc. I survived for a month in Mongolia on what I could fit around my rifle in a pelican case plus local water. If you must have a big meal eat it first night. Take fully cooked and simply warm up over fire if permitted. I sure would not carry a stove of any weight.

Sleeping gear can be very light if you share heat with partner, sleep close, stay warm.

Best way to dry clothes out is to sleep in them. Cooks moisture right out.

Good, well broken in footwear. Likely lighter and lower than is commonly worn. Most folks don’t need ankle support if accustom to packing and hiking.

Primitive folks world round survive their entire lives without a lot of the stuff I see listed.

I won’t comment on shooting gear except to say light as possible so long as shooting not sacrificed, which is obvious.

 

[RogueTanker]

I have not done this shoot and doubt I ever will.
I do find it fascinating. have traveled done a lot of backpack mountain hunting

One thing I notice in these Mammoth threads is the focus on comfort. If I were doing it I would gear it more toward survival.

Mammoth can be be distilled to three things, in this order, imho:

1. Survival- you don't get shit if you don't finish
2. Target engagement- you get nothing if you can't hit your target. So your weapons had better work and communication needs to work
3. Comfort- you probably won't hit shot or talk well to your partner when you be gotten no sleep, have a rash on your ass and bleeding blisters.

TBH- mammoth isn't that hard. I was 30lbs heavier than I shouldve been, I carried a tent, I carried plenty of electrolytes and mountain house. My rifle was under 10lbs, but could've been lighter, and etc...

Most people can train, and carry the weight so they can enjoy life just a bit while sucking for the 35+ miles they have to ruck.

You could easily make a 20-25lb pack and make it thru the long weekend, but where's the fun in that?

 

[Stag556]

Mammoth can be be distilled to three things, in this order, imho:

1. Survival- you don't get shit if you don't finish
2. Target engagement- you get nothing if you can't hit your target. So your weapons had better work and communication needs to work
3. Comfort- you probably won't hit shot or talk well to your partner when you be gotten no sleep, have a rash on your ass and bleeding blisters.

TBH- mammoth isn't that hard. I was 30lbs heavier than I shouldve been, I carried a tent, I carried plenty of electrolytes and mountain house. My rifle was under 10lbs, but could've been lighter, and etc...

Most people can train, and carry the weight so they can enjoy life just a bit while sucking for the 35+ miles they have to ruck.

You could easily make a 20-25lb pack and make it thru the long weekend, but where's the fun in that?

Man, I want to know how to easily get 20-25lbs in my pack! Myself and my partner last year ended up around 47lbs each. We tried to find a balance of comfort, necessity and gear that would assist us the most.

 

[ballison]

FWIW, here was my complete setup going into Mammoth this year. It was said earlier but plan to make your final clothing, sleeping bag, and tent/tarp choices until you get closer to the match date. Weather was 20-25 deg warmer than expected and no rain, so I made some last-minute changes on clothes and gear. Saved a little weight too. As for the 20-25# pack, more power to you but I see no way doing that in the tough man division. We struggled to get under 55# and we used/needed everything we took. With some experience, we might shave off a few pounds, but remember, this is also a shooting match and if you sacrifice that stuff it will show in your finish.

 

[never_summer]

Man, I want to know how to easily get 20-25lbs in my pack! Myself and my partner last year ended up around 47lbs each. We tried to find a balance of comfort, necessity and gear that would assist us the most.

yeah, just between ammo and firearms we were close to that number.

 

[Stag556]

yeah, just between ammo and firearms we were close to that number.

Apparently my partner just corrected me and said it was closer to 55. I can’t remember what I ate this morning so....

 

[never_summer]

I’ll have to put a list together of the gear I took with weight. Was just happy to get my primary down to 13lbs unloaded from it’s normal 16lbs, and now it’s at 21lbs.

 

[Stag556]

I’ll have to put a list together of the gear I took with weight. Was just happy to get my primary down to 13lbs unloaded from it’s normal 16lbs, and now it’s at 21lbs.

My partner did a spread sheet on everything in ounces. Made it little easier to add up and keep track.

My takeaways from the 2020 match were to upgrade my sleeping pad, my pillow and water bottle. Almost everything else will stay the same.

I had tested various footwear with different socks and had a great combo for me. Gun was perfect. Carried a lightweight Nemo tent that was awesome and provided that little bit of creature comfort at night for some privacy. Overall, I was happy with our teams loadout and it paid off.

 

[RogueTanker]

yeah, just between ammo and firearms we were close to that number.

Ultralight bolt action in some 6mm flavor, carbon fiber or short barrel, no frills pistol, ultralight pack with no frame, no tent, no extra clothes, just a pair or two of socks a.d underwear, lightweight freeze dried good, etc... Maybe 20lbs is an exaggeration, but 25-30lbs with no extras could be done if you have the money and don't care for comfort.

 

[RogueTanker]

FWIW, here was my complete setup going into Mammoth this year. It was said earlier but plan to make your final clothing, sleeping bag, and tent/tarp choices until you get closer to the match date. Weather was 20-25 deg warmer than expected and no rain, so I made some last-minute changes on clothes and gear. Saved a little weight too. As for the 20-25# pack, more power to you but I see no way doing that in the tough man division. We struggled to get under 55# and we used/needed everything we took. With some experience, we might shave off a few pounds, but remember, this is also a shooting match and if you sacrifice that stuff it will show in your finish.

View attachment 7315969

We shot tough man too and we were at 43 & 45 lbs. I shot a 20"'243, shared a tent and all freeze dried foods. No tripod (,didn't regret that) and one bad each

 

[Austinjunks]

I ran with very minimal gear in 2020. Tyvek tarp for shelter, foam sleeping pad and a top quilt. No extra pants or shirts, 1 extra pair of undies and 2 spare pair of socks. My rifle was 11.5 lbs and my packed weight with gun was 36.5 lbs. Less is better.

 

[never_summer]

Ultralight bolt action in some 6mm flavor, carbon fiber or short barrel, no frills pistol, ultralight pack with no frame, no tent, no extra clothes, just a pair or two of socks a.d underwear, lightweight freeze dried good, etc... Maybe 20lbs is an exaggeration, but 25-30lbs with no extras could be done if you have the money and don't care for comfort.

hah that last sentence is key there, money and comfort were big considerations for our team.

 

[Stag556]

I agree. Comfort was a big one for us. A shitty nights sleep makes for shitty shooting and shitty attitudes with a partner.

 

[NGCSUGrad09]

You can always make it with less, but you don't have to. Being it's a competition, performance is the goal and maybe having some fun.

Its ultimately up to for making it the experience you want. Some guys will try to go lightest and see how they can do, some try to win, some want to camp and shoot with their buddy and some just try to survive or cross the finish line.

Set your goals, figure out what you need to do it and then make it happen. We went with the goal of a top finish and brought a few extras that might have helped on a couple stages but didn't really NEED. We had more than enough food to stay on our A game. We were fit enough to carry our stuff, prepared and saved weight where we could to bring the few extras. It worked for us this year, I don't know that we will change much going into next year if we go again.

 

[Lunar95]

Lot of people here have mentioned and made a point, need to see the weather before I over commit to clothing and such. Its seem most are familiar with 40s+ weather, im getting hung up on a few stories of it not getting above 20.

Great info gents, i appreciate it!

 

[Bb214]

When I shot mammoth in 2016 in Kentucky the Friday was in the 60s. Unfortunately, my partners father had a heart attack and we had to leave. I had some other buddies who were there however, and it snowed Saturday/Sunday. I wanna say with my rifle strapped on my pack was 65ish pounds.

 

[Qazwsx]

My partner and I both were 65-70 lbs and made time no issue. Watch the weather and adjust up or down if needed. I wouldn’t skimp on food. Skimp on ammo.

Some people seem to have spent quite a bit on super light gear and rifles for the match. You don’t have to do that. If it’s a big expense for you ruck more and use the money to practice shooting. We placed well with heavy. Also consider you both share 4 minutes to shoot an entire stage so if it isn’t fast don’t use it.

 

[RogueTanker]

My partner and I both were 65-70 lbs and made time no issue. Watch the weather and adjust up or down if needed. I wouldn’t skimp on food. Skimp on ammo.

Some people seem to have spent quite a bit on super light gear and rifles for the match. You don’t have to do that. If it’s a big expense for you ruck more and use the money to practice shooting. We placed well with heavy. Also consider you both share 4 minutes to shoot an entire stage so if it isn’t fast don’t use it.

I had enough of the train harder mentality when I was in. Work smarter is better. It wasn't too hard or relatively expensive to get a 10lb rifle with good ballistics. It wasn't that hard to pack lighter or leave the tripod at home.

I mean to each their own and there is nothing wrong with your approach. Most people will probably pick a route in between.

I felt last year that only one stages would I ha e benefited from a tripod and other than that, I never felt outgunned equipment wise.

Definitely could've benefited from more partner assisted shooting, target ranging and stage brief assessments.

 

[TriggerJerk!]

I have not done this shoot and doubt I ever will.
I do find it fascinating. I have done a lot of worldwide backpack mountain hunting

One thing I notice in these Mammoth threads is the focus on comfort. If I were doing it I would gear it more toward survival.

Go light, certainly no tent. Doubtful even a tarp unless rain is predicted. One set extra underwear and sox. Rotate.

Watch forecast immediately prior to launch. Tune load for that regarding rain gear, sleeping set up, over clothing etc.Short term weather forecast are very accurate today.

I would go very light on food and no cooking, dining stuff. Think trail mix, pouch packed salmon, tuna. Chocolate bars, M&M’s etc. I survived for a month in Mongolia on what I could fit around my rifle in a pelican case plus local water. If you must have a big meal eat it first night. Take fully cooked and simply warm up over fire if permitted. I sure would not carry a stove of any weight.

Sleeping gear can be very light if you share heat with partner, sleep close, stay warm.

Best way to dry clothes out is to sleep in them. Cooks moisture right out.

Good, well broken in footwear. Likely lighter and lower than is commonly worn. Most folks don’t need ankle support if accustom to packing and hiking.

Primitive folks world round survive their entire lives without a lot of the stuff I see listed.

I won’t comment on shooting gear except to say light as possible so long as shooting not sacrificed, which is obvious.

^^^^^^This. Go light, and foot wear has to fit. Protein, good complex carbs (both dried), and figure out the water situation.

 

[Qazwsx]

I had enough of the train harder mentality when I was in. Work smarter is better. It wasn't too hard or relatively expensive to get a 10lb rifle with good ballistics. It wasn't that hard to pack lighter or leave the tripod at home.

I mean to each their own and there is nothing wrong with your approach. Most people will probably pick a route in between.

I felt last year that only one stages would I ha e benefited from a tripod and other than that, I never felt outgunned equipment wise.

Definitely could've benefited from more partner assisted shooting, target ranging and stage brief assessments.

The point was fitness is free and if the match is financially a big commitment you’d be better off practicing with what you’ve got then going broke buying all new kit for a two and a half day event. If all you have is a 20lb prs gun then yeah get something else. I wasn’t saying be macho and bring a Dutch oven for cobbler.

 

[Walter Haas]

After spending several months getting all the gear and crap together to try and hype myself up for mammoth 2021 iv been able to gather pretty much everything and started rucking/cardio. Lucky iv been into strength training for the better part of 2 years now so im feeling pretty confident physically. The 2 other areas I have left where i'm in uncharted territory is sleep system and clothing, iv made a post and poked a few people for opinions on the sleep system.

I have a 30 degree sea to summit bag, snug pack bivy, thermarest pad and a tarp. Im debating getting an enlighten equipment 20 degree quilt and a tent over a tarp but i think tha's just going to be eventual preference.

For clothing i'm kinda at a loss and where id like some help. Right now I have perfectly fine boots that I very much trust, some standard 5.11 stryker pants, uf pro light jacket and my full (pants/jacket) layer 6 issued gortex I plan to bring.
This clearly wont be enough, I plan to add 2 layer 1 shirts and a 1 layer 2 thermal shirt, and maybe a layer 1 pair of pants.

Would a layer 1 shirt, layer 2 thermal, light jacket and layer 6 gortex being enough to stay warm? I'm really not sure how cold it gets, I don't want to pack the full wardrobe or spend $600 on layers I don't need but I also really don't want to go in freezing to death. Brand preference is also welcomed. Im thinking a poly base layer and a wool thermal.

Also got 3 pairs of exofficio underware, 4 pairs of darn tough wool socks and minus 33 beanie, also probably bringing something to wrap my neck and face with, like a veil or whatever I can find.

I very much appreciate all the input I can get.

What's the Mammoth Sniper challenge. Any link to point me to it? I like skiing Mammoth, and climbing in Owens River Gorge, would be nice to do all that and shoot, too.

 

[kodak_zakk]

My brother and I had packs that were 42 and 44 pounds. He had an 18 pound 6xc and I had a 15 pound 223. He carried a new X5 legion and had a CZ shadow2. All 4 were heavy but shot very well. We didnt take a tripod but will next year. We carried a gamechanger that I filled with rocks at each stage. We also carried aluminum pistol ammo. Aluminum is about 3.5x lighter than brass and shot just as well. We finished fairly well.

 

[lts1ow]

How much will running a 308 suck?

 

[Austinjunks]

How much will running a 308 suck?

I'm gonna do 308 bolt gun this year, after running 223 gas last year. Shouldn't suck at all.

 

[RogueTanker]

I'm gonna do 308 bolt gun this year, after running 223 gas last year. Shouldn't suck at all.

What are your thoughts on 308 vs 223 for mammoth? My.partner shot a 223 and for the most part wasn't limited at all by the choice. A fast 223 will beat a 308 in all categories but energy. I'm asking because I'm shooting secondary this year and trying the decide between the two

 

[Stag556]

What are your thoughts on 308 vs 223 for mammoth? My.partner shot a 223 and for the most part wasn't limited at all by the choice. A fast 223 will beat a 308 in all categories but energy. I'm asking because I'm shooting secondary this year and trying the decide between the two

I shot a 223 as secondary last year and it worked very well. Ammo is obviously lighter and a 75gr ELD at 3k beats a 308 all day at the distances you need.

 

[lts1ow]

FWIW, here was my complete setup going into Mammoth this year. It was said earlier but plan to make your final clothing, sleeping bag, and tent/tarp choices until you get closer to the match date. Weather was 20-25 deg warmer than expected and no rain, so I made some last-minute changes on clothes and gear. Saved a little weight too. As for the 20-25# pack, more power to you but I see no way doing that in the tough man division. We struggled to get under 55# and we used/needed everything we took. With some experience, we might shave off a few pounds, but remember, this is also a shooting match and if you sacrifice that stuff it will show in your finish.

View attachment 7315969

Did you use a range finder?

 

[never_summer]

Definitely need a range finder, some stages were unknown distance.

 

[ballison]

Did you use a range finder?

Yes, we had a set of Sig range finding binos. My partner carried them.

 

[Austinjunks]

What are your thoughts on 308 vs 223 for mammoth? My.partner shot a 223 and for the most part wasn't limited at all by the choice. A fast 223 will beat a 308 in all categories but energy. I'm asking because I'm shooting secondary this year and trying the decide between the two

We shot 223 gassers as primary and secondary, 223 as secondary will be no issue. I'm running 308 all year in competition to get more familiar with bolt guns. I have always been a gas gun guy.

 

[db2000]

What's the longest engagement? What's the average/most common rifle distances?
Is the disadvantage to 223 not dropping steel? Thanks

 

[Austinjunks]

Longest shot for secondary was 700-750 I believe, average was 350 ish. Primary longest was 1118 I believe, with average being around the 450 ish mark. About 1/2 the stages shared targets between primary and secondary.

 

[jwl45auto]

Perhaps a dumb question, but I’m new to both PRS and Mammoth, is 300 Norma a legal round? After reading the rules, it would appear it is so long as it’s not exceeding 3200 FPS, but I’ve seen some posts that appear to say otherwise. Any definitive answer?

 

[never_summer]

Longest shot for secondary was 700-750 I believe, average was 350 ish. Primary longest was 1118 I believe, with average being around the 450 ish mark. About 1/2 the stages shared targets between primary and secondary.

Range 4 I want to say it was, the Leupold call it in sponsored stage had the furthest secondary shot. I just remember because it was our very first stage we showed up to. Debrief went... secondary engage target at 900yds, everyone: uhm but the match debrief said 800yds was furthest?

 

[never_summer]

Perhaps a dumb question, but I’m new to both PRS and Mammoth, is 300 Norma a legal round? After reading the rules, it would appear it is so long as it’s not exceeding 3200 FPS, but I’ve seen some posts that appear to say otherwise. Any definitive answer?

Rules state .308 diameter max 220gr max 3200 fps max. Largest I saw was in our squad, 7 practical shooting a 180gr close to 3200 fps.

 

[jwl45auto]

Prime sells a 215 grain 300 Norma at 3055FPS. It sounds to me like that fits the rules (barely), but I hadn’t seen anyone talking about it for mammot. It is more expensive than their 338LM, so maybe that’s why.

 

[never_summer]

You’re not gonna see probably anyone shooting that in prs and more than likely won’t at mammoth either. Positional shooting a 300 Norma you are going to need a very heavy rifle and probably still not be able to spot misses due to recoil. Along the same issue with one at mammoth, you aren’t going to want a very heavy rifle due to rucking it and will be stuck with a good amount of recoil. On top of that your ammo will weigh twice as much as most of the primary shooters. A 6mm shooting 115grs at 3100+ would be much better

 

[ballison]

Other than an ELR match, I doubt you would see a single 300 Norma at any PRS match or Mammoth. A good 6mm or 6.5mm will do anything you need at any of these matches. @never_summer covered most of the reasons already.

 

[unleashedprecision]

Definitely need a range finder, some stages were unknown distance.

Yeah, more like 90% of stages are unknown distance. That is consistent across all the field matches.

 

[unleashedprecision]

Having completed 5 of these types of matches I have found that I will always appreciate working hard up front to be more comfortable during the match. I've carried between 57-70lbs depending on the match conditions and scheme. I RO'd one recently and was able to really pick at the teams' load out and plan. While tripods have paid off less in the last few matches, they've been worth 20-30 in the past. I will always carry one, if for nothing else than to dry gear out on at night under a poncho. Teams that went super minimal to move faster were the most miserable and least effective under stress. It's a shooting competition, not a light weight race competition. Range finding binos should be the primary spotting accessory for at least one shooter, optimally both. Most times you will both be searching for and ranging targets, sometimes simultaneously and sometimes consecutively.

 

[flatlander]

I competed in Mammoth 2020 and did the Regular division so I can't comment on the camping aspect but I can share what my team mate and I learned around the pack set ups, boots and clothing. A brief disclaimer. I'm a OCR competitor so what I've learned about running 3-15 mile events in mud, water, wet, cold, hot had been hashed out many times before I started Mammoth. My teammate is a full time SWAT officer so he's literally running around all day.
For packs we both used the same packs. Mystery Ranch Pintler w the guidelight frames. I designed a scabbard to hold our rifles vertical between the pack and frame. Took them to my local upholstery seamstress and had her sew them. They worked great and we had no issues while rucking or even running with our packs on. Rifles stayed secure.
Clothing: I waited until the day before departure to decide. Since it was warm this year (50's-60's) I decided to bring the 5.11 capital pants because they were very lightweight as my long pants and Kuhl shorts to do the rucks in. My team mate did the same, rucked in shorts shot in long pants. Shirts were mixture of Velocity systems long sleeve, dryfit short sleeves. NOTHING WITH COTTON.
Socks: Darn Tough boot socks and compression socks in case calf cramps set in
Boots: This is were we went separate directions. I chose the Garmont T8 NFS . Super lightweight, they feel like running shoes and most importantly they let the feet breathe. during the later half of the second day I had one blister form on the outside of my left foot from walking off camber beside the road. Mole skin and it was a simple fix.
The most important take away I've learned from doing OCR competition is that shoes need to let your feet breathe and drainage if submersed needs to be adequate. I've done 15.5 miles before in wet shoes and socks w no blisters because my shoes drained and my socks weren't cotton and let my feet dry naturally. My team mate wore a pair gortex boots which after the first day of mammoth left his feet in a wreck. With Lots of moleskin, blister pads, motrin and determination he carried on. Gortex is great if you are static standing in water or it's cold enough outside your boots to let the heat from your feet keep moisture levels low. But add some heat and Gortex boots are not your friend.

Hydration: Liquid IV packets in my water bottle 2-3 times a day.
Food : During the day , a tuna sandwich and granola bar kept me until dinner which was usually pasta.

Gear: LRF, Game Changer bag w lightweight fill. No tripod