22 trainer - Again

[Scarface26]

Gents,

I've been shooting my AR a lot lately so considering going that direction for a 22 trainer.

Options I see right now are to either purchase an M and P 15/22 or go with the CMMG conversion.

Obviously the CMMG is the cheapest, but is this even effective out to 100, given the twist rates of most AR's?

WRT the 15/22, one of the draws is that I've heard you can replace the stock trigger with the identical trigger you run on your AR. Is this true?

Has anyone here used these and how was your reliability, etc?

FWIW, my current trainer is a Ruger American rimfire with a TASCO on top. Strictly top of the line. Upper echelon gear like Annies and Vudoos - and even CZ's, are totally out of the question. For now.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

God bless America

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I have two MP15-22. Fun but not very accurate. I'd assume you could replace the barrel for better accuracy. I run a SSA-E two stage trigger in one of them. Reliable until the extractor breaks. Happened once on each rifle after thousands of rounds. Replaced by S&W free of charge including shipping from me to them and back again. Controls and feels just like a regular 5.56 AR.

 

[Feif64]

I have the CMMG bolt and barrel combo with a 4.5 inch barrel and I have very few jams with Federal ammo. I can hit 2/3 ipsc out to 75 yards. They also make longer barrels

 

[0dd]

There have been some oob discharges with the s&w. Earlier this year they were encouraging everyone to check the bolt. Not sure if it fixes the issue or not as I do not own one.

For several years they have been banned from Apple seed shoots.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

look into the kriss defiance DMK22. that is another option for an AR in 22lr and you can re-barrel with 10/22 barrels

 

[cjt50]

Take a peek at Tippmann Arms M4-22, (yes they make a 22lr)

I have all the mentioned systems and the Tippmann has been the most trouble free.

 

[jharms80439]

I posted this over in the semi-auto thread - should have posted it here in the rimfire section I guess.

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...accurate-and-most-reliable-out-there.6967728/

FWIW, here are my observations after reading way more on AR-22's on RFC and SH than I should have AND talking with just about everyone that makes a kit, an upper or has complete rifles - just remember this is IMHO only.

1) JP Rifles - reliable, accurate but not MOA accurate - specialty is for 3-gun not 200+ yard steel shooting - no custom work, two models, if you go into the builder you can specify a few build differences, but not many. Several have posted here and over at RFC about long distance accuracy issues, but few have posted around reliability issues. I'm unsure whether the bolt holds open on last round or not. Uses Black Dog magazines.

2) Compass Lake - reliable and uber accurate - specialty is as a national match trainer (primarily slow fire where any malfunctions should they occur are not as critical) - would work great as a long distance steel rifle, but short timed competition, I'm unsure - builds with long barrels too - long barrel philosophy is to ensure the bullet stays subsonic. Very similar to the military M-261 semi auto trainer (Air Force IIRC) with a flat breech - no feed ramp. Website says it's an improved design, but again most CLE uppers are single fed where a jam is somewhat irrelevant. Only shot one of these - very accurate, was very reliable too. Bolt doesn't hold open unless with the BobSled. Uses the M-261 style of magazines or AR-15 mags with an insert (insert doesn't hold bolt open). Unsure if a Catch22 is necessary or will/won't work either.

3) Keystone Accuracy - uber reliable and uber accurate - full auto capable, accurate as a gnat's a$$ - no specific specialty - but it'll work well for me and shooting steel at 300 yards. John (Keystone's owner), is willing to do just about anything you want and will make it the best that he can make it - however, he will not guarantee that your plan (whatever you want him to actually do) is optimal/good/accurate - but he will make it reliable - so choose wisely! CMMG bolt based design but has an integrated feed ramp engineered into the barrel and stuff on the CMMG bolt machined off. IMHO this is a better design than the M-261 based design - and the standard CMMG bolt conversions used with an AR-15 1:7 barrel. Bolt is designed to hold open on last round with Black Dog magazines.

4) Pretty much all others have marginal accuracy - 1.5"-2" at 50 yards - and/or (so I've seen/heard/read) marginal reliability. That includes most of the factory built rifles too. An exception may be the Kriss Defiance design which uses 10/22 barrels. It's new so time will tell.

FWIW, I'm on the Keystone Accuracy bandwagon right now. I'll know in a couple of weeks whether she is a shooter or not. If she is my buddy will be ponying up for a Keystone Accuracy as well.

Again, just IMHO.

John

 

[45cal4life]

No issues with a Tactical Solutions Kestrel upper with a 9" barrel on a registered Bushmaster SBR lower. Shooting less than 100 yards and going for double and triple tap hits versus all out accuracy

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So, my Black DOg mags lock back on my CMMG dedicated upper, but when I strip the mag, the bolt drops-- no Bueno.

MPs are good, but they are lighter and therefor swing and move different than a full gun, but the light weight makes as much out of the recoil as possible. Mags lock back and stay locked back, but they don't drop free. Haven't played with mag well or weight on mags. Takes about 1000 rounds to get it to run well. First couple of hundred rounds can be a PITA.

THe MP mags can be used with the CMMG with a Boonie Packer adaptor. I just got one in to try out.

I run red dots on my M&P 15/22s, so I get about an inch or so group at 25. Really more of a dot issue and astigmatism than anything. Son and I use them for on dueling trees. THAT IS FUN!

Depends what you are trying to do.

 

[jharms80439]

@FromMyColdDeadHand ,

Yep, I’m with ya - it really does depend on whatcha want to do with the tool.

The OP mentioned 100 yards and depending on their accuracy requirements, many guns will fit the bill with the right ammo. As a 1/4 308 trainer, I looked at higher priced gear - some of what I looked at were 2x-3x higher priced - but my requirements may be way different too.

As a short distance AR trainer, and as long as the controls are the same, and we’re talking steel at 50/75/100 and maybe out to 125 yards, the MP or Kriss are great options. Even a tuned CMMG upper w/1:16 twist barrel can be built to be reliable - and minute of short distance steel plate - pretty economically. Heck, the OP might even be able to get away with the CMMG bolt kit and shoot his 1:7 upper and be fine.

It is when the desired distances get out to 200+ yards with the 22LR - and Uber accuracy and Uber reliability matter - that the price climbs rapidly.

Again, the OP needs to define the use of the tool (mission), then spend accordingly. . There are lots of options - but spend wisely grasshopper.

John

 

[NighthawkCG]

I have an early model 15/22 and absolutely love it. I guess it had a few malfunctions when brand new, but don't think they lasted through a bulk pack of federal HV. Nothing I would call a PITA as others have said - if it had two dozen malfunctions over the first 525 rounds, I would be surprised. No issues nowadays.

- Can plink 10-ish inch steel at 200 yards with it easily. Haven't really tried it for precision on paper.
- Not sure on new ones (jefe's above looks different), but you cannot replace the buffer tube or put an end plate on it. Clamp style single point swivel would work, but not a traditional endplate one. Mine does not have any swivel cup.
- It is a hoot suppressed
- My mags fall freely out and reloads with the mag shape are very slick. Don't remember them ever being an issue not falling out.
- Had no extractors break on mine and had it and shot it a lot over the last 10 years. I have seen others break extractors though.
- It currently runs very reliably for me. It is my current dedicated night mouse gun - accurate enough to hit mice at 30 yards.
- No OOB discharges on mine.


Overall I have no regrets with it. It can do a lot.

 

[Scarface26]

Gents,

Thanks very much for your replies.

Question re: distance? 100 yards and in. My backyard range is 60 yards and 99% of the shooting would be me and the kids on a dueling tree at that distance. The plates are 6" and I paint a 2" circle in the center of each plate.

NighthawkCG, thanks for your input. Wish it was the norm. Maybe the problems other have had are ammo related? I run CCI SV in my other rifles and it's accurate and reliable.

Big reason I was looking at the AR platform was due to the adjustability of the stock for younger shooters. The ability to run my trigger is a plus, and if it balances like a regular AR, also a plus.

You guys are no help at all. lol. After reading the above, I realize to a small degree how much I don't know. Keeping the wallet in the pocket for now.

God bless America.

 

[tjh011]

Gents,

Thanks very much for your replies.

Question re: distance? 100 yards and in. My backyard range is 60 yards and 99% of the shooting would be me and the kids on a dueling tree at that distance. The plates are 6" and I paint a 2" circle in the center of each plate.

NighthawkCG, thanks for your input. Wish it was the norm. Maybe the problems other have had are ammo related? I run CCI SV in my other rifles and it's accurate and reliable.

Big reason I was looking at the AR platform was due to the adjustability of the stock for younger shooters. The ability to run my trigger is a plus, and if it balances like a regular AR, also a plus.

You guys are no help at all. lol. After reading the above, I realize to a small degree how much I don't know. Keeping the wallet in the pocket for now.

God bless America.

Can't go wrong with the Smith and Wesson 15-22. It's definitely dueling tree accurate and the mags are great. One of my favorite guns to plink with.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Plus, when you are talking dueling trees, you need to keep the guns as 'NASCAR' as possible to cut down on the bitching...

It was alluded to here, but my 15/22 really wants 40gr HV rounds. As much energy as you can get into them.

I pretty much run .FEDERAL 22 LONG RIFLE 40GR SOLID CHAMPION AUTOMATCH AMMUNITION 325RDS

A bit more expensive, but they like the CCI .22 LONG RIFLE 40GR COPPER PLATED RN AR TACTICAL AMMUNITION 300RDS too.

And if you don't have one, the best thing I've bought in the last 10 years for 22s is the speed loader.

Lightnin' Grip Loader 22lr.(Adapters sold Separately) LOADER DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT AN ADAPTER!

From a single piece to a complex machine, McFadden is your source for quality products and services.

www.mcfaden.com

I think that is the one I have. Adaptors for M&P 15/22, M&P 22lr handgun and other mags. Sweet mother does it make range visits more fun. Can . reload the 25rnd mags in 10-15 seconds(?). Saves your thumbs. I like slowing the boy down on centerfire so I make him load mags, but I can load mags as fast as he can unload them with the loader.

Dueling trees and speed loaders for 22lr. Simply unbeatable fun with the kids or training. Brings a smile to my face just thinking of it.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I can't emphasize enough how great those Lightnin' Grip Loaders are. I have one for the MP15-22 and reloading is almost fun. It's definitely fast and they are reliable. Although I do get impatient at times lining up the ammo but then remind myself how fast and easy loading is with one.

Worth every penny.

 

[Shawn1492]

Surprised there hasn’t been a mention of a Ruger 10/22 in an AR style stock. Has a nice benefit of aftermarket parts, barrels and stocks. Then you can switch to a PRS style stock and practice long range precision. Fun Fun Fun.

 

[NighthawkCG]

A bit more expensive, but they like the CCI .22 LONG RIFLE 40GR COPPER PLATED RN AR TACTICAL AMMUNITION 300RDS too.

I believe I was told or read somewhere that those CCI AR tactical rounds were designed specifically around the 15-22. Hence the picture of it on the box.

I haven't put much hyper velocity stuff through mine, but a good bit of high velocity and standard velocity right down to 1050 fps. I try to shoot mainly the plated rounds through it, but if none, it gets whatever. CCI SV is my go to for other 22s. My mouse hunting round is the very similar CCI Segmented Sub HP. No complaints there.

6" dueling tree at 60-100 yards should be no problem. Not a $$ saving solution, but 2 x 15-22s and a couple of dueling trees would be great fun all.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Maybe try this new full size trainer Frank reviewed last month.