PRS Talk .223 As a starter PRS gun a waste?

[munsonbw]

Short story is I snagged a Stiller Tac30 .223 bolt on clearance with the plan to build something. Since then I have decided to try PRS (local fun match) style competition. It seems like a reasonable plan to build this action into a trainer gun and I can also use it to try F-T/R bullseye shooting. However, when I see that you can pick up a RPR in 6 creedmoor for $750, it has me rethink the plan. I don't have brass or dies, so I'll be pushing $1000 by the time that is over. Regardless, I'll easily have that in building the stiller. My dad is working on making me an AICS mag adapter for my 6.5 creedmoor, but it is a hunting rifle and its limits will be tested.

I have no experience shooting long range and I have a hard enough time spotting my shots with a .223 AR off the bench, so skill building is required for sure.

Thanks
Ben

 

[Campguy308]

How far are you going to be shooting in your local prs match?

 

[northeastgunfighter]

how far are you shooting out to when you bench shoot? inside 100 its hard to see trace. are you using a spotting scope to spot your shots?

 

[munsonbw]

They have a target out to 1000-1200 yds, which I know the .223 will struggle. Most, as I understand, are in the 3-700yd range. I would chamber the .223 to take heavy bullets that can reach 1000, but as i am sure everyone knows, its not easy to do.

I should have added to my post above, I am trying to invest as little as possible right now so I can get a feel for what I really need and if this sticks. The .223 option gives me the ability to use the rifle at home at shorter ranges too. I am starting to see some parts pop up for the .223 build and, unfortunately, have yet to get to a match.

 

[northeastgunfighter]

They have a target out to 1000-1200 yds, which I know the .223 will struggle. Most, as I understand, are in the 3-700yd range. I would chamber the .223 to take heavy bullets that can reach 1000, but as i am sure everyone knows, its not easy to do.

I should have added to my post above, I am trying to invest as little as possible right now so I can get a feel for what I really need and if this sticks. The .223 option gives me the ability to use the rifle at home at shorter ranges too. I am starting to see some parts pop up for the .223 build and, unfortunately, have yet to get to a match.

dude.\, most of your time should be spent dry firing. dont rush yourself to a match. you can accomplish 80-90% of what you need at home with a timer. build those positions, increase with time. I watch top level shooters and recreate their stages at home and time myself. all without even firing a round. youll miss most of the shots because the reticle is moving, again position building.

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

I can't see an obvious answer so I will use your own words like a cheesy therapist to repeat what he just said.


Skill building will be required for sure.


Good luck! I'm trying the 224 so I will be in a similar boat this year as far as bullet size goes...

 

[northeastgunfighter]

I can't see an obvious answer so I will use your own words like a cheesy therapist to repeat what he just said.


Skill building will be required for sure.


Good luck! I'm trying the 224 so I will be in a similar boat this year as far as bullet size goes...

FYI i had issues running an 18'' Aero 224 upper (factory built) I was showing low MV. I was closer to 6.8 SPC than actual 224 Valk. I've since then shyed away from this and just went to 6.5 cred.

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

FYI i had issues running an 18'' Aero 224 upper (factory built) I was showing low MV. I was closer to 6.8 SPC than actual 224 Valk. I've since then shyed away from this and just went to 6.5 cred.

We will have to see what 24.5" does with it I think I can get it up above lukewarm or there's gonna be a big ass pity party up here, several hundred Twizzlers will perish, the whole nine yards, before I move on to a bigger round.

 

[Sheldon N]

Short story is I snagged a Stiller Tac30 .223 bolt on clearance with the plan to build something. Since then I have decided to try PRS (local fun match) style competition. It seems like a reasonable plan to build this action into a trainer gun and I can also use it to try F-T/R bullseye shooting.

Sounds like a good plan and should be fun. Snag a remage barrel in 7 twist, 26" to 28" in heavy contour, Hunt around for a used brake and trigger, and whatever scope suits the budget. Pick up some cheap Lake City once fired/processed brass for around $10/100, and shoot the 75, 80 or 88 ELD-M.

It will be more than adeuqate for PRS and mid-range matches. Maybe would be hard to pull out a match win against the larger calibers but could still be very competitive and a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[munsonbw]

Thanks for the input, gang. I know that it will be harder to win with the .223, but I am realistic that I don't have the time and desire to commit what is required to be that good. I am in it for fun and something more challenging than shooting bullseye.

Sheldon, that was exactly my plan! Well, I had not planned on a brake. Should I?

 

[northeastgunfighter]

Thanks for the input, gang. I know that it will be harder to win with the .223, but I am realistic that I don't have the time and desire to commit what is required to be that good. I am in it for fun and something more challenging than shooting bullseye.

Sheldon, that was exactly my plan! Well, I had not planned on a brake. Should I?

A brake is also nice to have. Helps the gun shoot flater and recoild felt recoil.

 

[northeastgunfighter]

A brake is also nice to have. Helps the gun shoot flater and recoild felt recoil.

reduce**

 

[skinnj1]

If ftr is in the cards, a brake is a no go for those events so at least go with a brake that is easy to take off, if you decide F/TR isn't that important (ie you could shoot fclass in fopen) I would make my chamber say 223 AI on the side of it with a barrel long enough to get everything I could out of it and plan on running bullets larger than 80 gr.

 

[northeastgunfighter]

If ftr is in the cards, a brake is a no go for those events so at least go with a brake that is easy to take off, if you decide F/TR isn't that important (ie you could shoot fclass in fopen) I would make my chamber say 223 AI on the side of it with a barrel long enough to get everything I could out of it and plan on running bullets larger than 80 gr.

F class is for nerds.

 

[skinnj1]

F class is for nerds.

Reading is fundamental, OP mentioned f/tr in his 1st post as a possible use of said stiller.

 

[munsonbw]

Let’s put it this way, I think prs style shooting is far more interesting and I will probably go ai if I can find a remage barrel maker with a chamber to run the heavies. NSS has the .223 match with a long throat, but haven’t asked about the ai. F class was more something to get more practice at long range.

 

[skinnj1]

@munsonbw ,Then go 223 ackley improved you will still have disposable priced brass with a little more in the boiler room as far as slinging 88 eld/90 berger/95 smk's fast enough to take advantage of the bc of the bullets plus you wont inadvertently stick your 60ksi plus bolt gun reloads in your ar...

 

[Sheldon N]

A brake is nice and makes a notable difference, even on 223. You can always take it off if you're shooting F-class events.

I really like the 223AI, but would probably lean towards a straight 223 as being the better choice for you. It will allow you to compete in FT/R if you so desire (vs F-Open against big 7mm's) and will also let you shoot in Tactical class in PRS events (provided you run the proper bullet weight and speed).

Also likely easier/cheaper to find dies if you're shopping second hand.

 

[Kadams1563]

I say run a .223 in production class and then your only competing with a few guys. Much more prizes available

 

[skinnj1]

@Kadams1563 OP started discussion with wanting to use his existing action he currently owns.

Exactly how will OP be able to use his existing bare Stiller in Production class?

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I say run a .223 in production class and then your only competing with a few guys. Much more prizes available

OP wouldn't be production legal with a build off a Stiller action, and most matches don't have a separate prize table for Tac or Production.

 

[munsonbw]

Well, you guys are verbalizing exactly what I have been trying to work out in my head for a while (why I decided to post now). I have an AR and a 1:12 twist Cooper in .223 already. I also have Forster benchrest dies to reload with and intend to set up my Dillon 550 to load them. But, as skinnj1 stated, I have to be pretty careful not to swap ammo to the AR. The cooper likes <55gr, so that's not too bad to sort out.

 

[munsonbw]

OP wouldn't be production legal with a build off a Stiller action, and most matches don't have a separate prize table for Tac or Production.

At this time I am not too worried about classes and prizes.

 

[Kadams1563]

@Kadams1563 OP started discussion with wanting to use his existing action he currently owns.

Exactly how will OP be able to use his existing bare Stiller in Production class?

TACTICAL Division. Got confused apparently. Sorry for the mix up.

 

[Kadams1563]

OP wouldn't be production legal with a build off a Stiller action, and most matches don't have a separate prize table for Tac or Production.

You can win top three easier when there is only 5 guys shooting .223 or .308 though. Lol

 

[W54/XM-388]

If you happen to have the .223 bolt face, you might consider the .224V instead.

 

[Sheldon N]

Well, you guys are verbalizing exactly what I have been trying to work out in my head for a while (why I decided to post now). I have an AR and a 1:12 twist Cooper in .223 already. I also have Forster benchrest dies to reload with and intend to set up my Dillon 550 to load them. But, as skinnj1 stated, I have to be pretty careful not to swap ammo to the AR. The cooper likes <55gr, so that's not too bad to sort out.

You're already set up with a Dillon and 223 dies? You're ready to rock and roll then. Even if you get more into the sport and have another gun the Stiller will serve you very well as a trainer rifle. Quick tips that I would point you towards....

XBR8208 powder, meters awesome in the Dillon. Check out bulk price Hornady 75BTHP bullets, excellent as a trainer bullet if you dont want to shoot the more expensive ELD-M regularly. Get a big lot of LC brass, buy from Airborne 6.8 here on the hide, he can sell you as much as you need. Process and load in bulk, I like to size/prep all the brass at once and then load it when I need it. I run a 1k lot of brass, for only $100 it's well worth it. Read up on how to set the Dillon for a two step process, decap, size, mandrel on one toolhead and prime/powder/seat on the other toolhead.

It would actually be a ton of fun to compete with just one rifle like you're doing. Super simple and you could place really well.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

If you happen to have the .223 bolt face, you might consider the .224V instead.

Different bolt face. OP would have to get the bolt opened up for 224V.

 

[skinnj1]

If you happen to have the .223 bolt face, you might consider the .224V instead.

To bad .224 valk has a 6.8 boldface, 22 nosler though would work to get the same case capacity as a 223 ai with tons more cost and drama

@Kadams1563 a tactical class win is analogous to a win in Limited10 in USPSA, cool for a trophy if you need to stroke your ego but wont "win" you much else with the same skill level you have competing in the bigger pond...

 

[munsonbw]

how far are you shooting out to when you bench shoot? inside 100 its hard to see trace. are you using a spotting scope to spot your shots?

Should have replied to this earlier. 100yd bench shooting on 16x

 

[northeastgunfighter]

Should have replied to this earlier. 100yd bench shooting on 16x

I wouldnt even try seeing trace at 100 during the flight path. however, I would back off the power..close to like 8-10X and put the optic higher above the center of the target to see the bullet rise in the optic. it'll be really hard to find because its moving so fast at 100. On monday, I'll grab some video to show you on my phoneskope.

 

[Rugster]

You can absolutely be competitive (speaking from a PRS perspective) with a 223. More than a few of us have won club matches with our .223 trainer rifles. I love shooting that darn thing and as Sheldon said it runs like a champ through my Dillon with XBR8208. Not to mention if you decide you enjoy the sport enough to build another rifle chambered in 6/6.5 you’ll probably have built up some good windcalling skills.

A friend of mine finished top 10 in a 2 day PRS match with his .223 trainer. #223 is the new dasher lol.

 

[munsonbw]

Rugster, that's great info! For some reason I had the impression that a .223 was barely better than a 22lr. It seems not to be the case at all. I'm probably making it a little harder than it could be with the lighter .223 pills, but at the moment I think its the path I want to go.

 

[Rugster]

No problem! For perspective my 6.5 creed and .223 trainer running 75 grain eld’s at 2980 have almost identical dope out to 700. Very capable round.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Like others said, go for it. .223 is a ton of fun to shoot and you can be competitive in local or short matches.

Most local/club matches, if you can hit most targets 600 and in, you’re going to place well. The 223 will be a bit more difficult at 700+, but it’s really cool when you see a flasher at 900-1100 go off and you’re shooting a 223.

You can use it as a trainer once you step up to a 6 or 6.5. And it’s also good to have for the local matches if you don’t want to eat up the barrel life on your main comp gun.

It’s also a lot of fun if several of your friends shoot a match with .223. You have your own friendly sub match.

 

[Rugster]

Also, make sure your spotter/RO knows you’re shooting .223 prior to shooting the stage. If you’re not using flashers the impacts can be harder to see so it can help to have some extra folks on glass. Enjoy!

 

[munsonbw]

Thanks for the great discussion. My dad has a .223AI reamer and I think that is the way i'll go. Anyone here have experience with feeding? Seems maybe hit or miss? What about a brake, is there any benefit to the pricey ones over basic? I found some article from 2015 that tested a bunch with some sort of recoil distance as the measure of effectiveness. I guess start there?

 

[PAYDIRT]

Sounds like a good plan and should be fun. Snag a remage barrel in 7 twist, 26" to 28" in heavy contour, Hunt around for a used brake and trigger, and whatever scope suits the budget. Pick up some cheap Lake City once fired/processed brass for around $10/100, and shoot the 75, 80 or 88 ELD-M.

It will be more than adeuqate for PRS and mid-range matches. Maybe would be hard to pull out a match win against the larger calibers but could still be very competitive and a lot of fun to shoot.

^^THIS^^

 

[Tomiboy]

I've been thinking about getting into PRS and need to buy a rifle. I'd be shooting factory loads. This makes me think about .223. It looks like some good deals can be had on Hornady American Gunner 6.5 CM, but now I may have to take a look at .223. Where I just moved to, New Mexico, they run the matches out to 1,000 yards. Will the .223 be able to hit at those distances or is wind too much of a factor then?

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I've been thinking about getting into PRS and need to buy a rifle. I'd be shooting factory loads. This makes me think about .223. It looks like some good deals can be had on Hornady American Gunner 6.5 CM, but now I may have to take a look at .223. Where I just moved to, New Mexico, they run the matches out to 1,000 yards. Will the .223 be able to hit at those distances or is wind too much of a factor then?

It'll hit, but expect to have the wind knock you upside the head, take your lunch money, then kick dirt in your face.

If you reload, especially if you don't shoot Tac, you can breathe a little more life into a 223 - but even then, you're fighting the hell out of wind. 6.5 Creedmoor is a far better option.

 

[Tomiboy]

I was just looking at ammo too. It seems that the 6.5 CM ammo is pretty reasonable compared to ,223

 

[High Desert duck]

It’s all about rounds down range, and trigger time. The .223 is an excellent trainer /entry gun. Cheap to shoot and like others have said; if you hand load the dope is the same as a 6.5 CM TO 600-700. Only thing is when you do make the jump back to a “real” gun, recoil will be hard to deal with for a hundred or two round.

 

[generalzip]

Not a waste but you won’t win any matches with it. I’ve found if you’re reloading brass you’re much better served with a 6BR. Great barrel life. Brass off the shelf that can be reloaded 15+ times. If you want to buy surplus brass and have kind of shitty SD on velocity but leave the brass on the ground to save time reloading then a 223 is a good option. There’s no 12 round mags for a 223 which will hurt you in comps. You can shoot tactics division though with the other 1-2 people in the match trying to get a trophy the only way they know how.

if you’re trying to save money by going 223 you will be a bit disappointed when you run the numbers. If you plan and want to reload go with a 6BR. Better SD, accuracy, energy on target with still mild recoil. The only advantage a 223 has is the ability to buy primed brass at 13 cents a piece from wolf and leave it on the ground. Say goodbye to brass prep

 

[Birddog6424]

Not a waste but you won’t win any matches with it. I’ve found if you’re reloading brass you’re much better served with a 6BR. Great barrel life. Brass off the shelf that can be reloaded 15+ times. If you want to buy surplus brass and have kind of shitty SD on velocity but leave the brass on the ground to save time reloading then a 223 is a good option. There’s no 12 round mags for a 223 which will hurt you in comps. You can shoot tactics division though with the other 1-2 people in the match trying to get a trophy the only way they know how.

if you’re trying to save money by going 223 you will be a bit disappointed when you run the numbers. If you plan and want to reload go with a 6BR. Better SD, accuracy, energy on target with still mild recoil. The only advantage a 223 has is the ability to buy primed brass at 13 cents a piece from wolf and leave it on the ground. Say goodbye to brass prep

223 is a lot less expensive to shoot. I load for about .20 cents a round for my practice stuff. My match bullets are only $21 for 100.

And I dont think any other round has better SDs. Single digit SDs are single digit. And I'm sub half inch.

Honestly, you give up distance and energy on target. And you get pushed around more in wind. A club match with targets inside 1100 yards is a great venue for the 223. I shoot mine in matches all the time. I have a video here shooting at 900, 1100, and 1263 yards. I hit the long target with every shot. You can hear the surprise..

 

[generalzip]

Single digit SD are not single digit SD. 9 is not 2. When you’re shooting to 1500 yards with these small calibers it makes a difference.

berger 82 grain bullets cost the same as berger 105s. You’re not saving any money there. Powder you save like 6 grains a shot. Again no tangible savings. My point was that if you’re getting into 223 to save money yet expecting similar or even remotely comparable performance to the 6mms you’re going to likely be disappointed. But if you just want a fun gun to occasionally shoot club matches with and you have kids or a gf that are interested in shooting it’s not a bad choice at all
If you choose a 6mm with long barre life like a BR/BRA there’s really no advantage to a .223. It will have less energy (lot of no calls), more wind, and more finicky to load for compared to the BR family of cartridges. This is just the experience of myself and several other guys I know that have explored the same option. I think I’m the only one that still owns a 223 solely because I have the components still. Once I shoot them all up I’ll sell the bolt and barrel and build another BR/BRA/dasher, but that’s just my opinion.
The point is you won’t be wildly competitive with a 223 in PRS and you won’t see huge cost saving compared to another caliber of you plan to shoot quality bullets like Berger’s.

 

[Birddog6424]

Who said anything about a 9 SD? I get no better standard deviation out of my 22BR, 6 Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor or 300 Norma mag than I do my 223. Good load development is possible with every one of them.

And why do you have to shoot the most expensive Berger as a bullet price comparison? I shoot 80gr ELDMs, so I save plenty of money. 500 of them for $100

You're really painting worst case scenario. No Dasher or BR on the market is going to compare to the 5k rounds of barrel life you get from a 223.

I shoot my 223 for a fraction of the cost and hassle as any other comp rifle I've owned. And impact spotting isnt nearly as hard as everyone always makes it out to be on these forums. Everyone in my squad in that video was seeing the impacts on that 1263 yard plate. I was seeing them through my scope. The only guy asking us how we were spotting those was the guy with the foggy $50 KMart optic. Nowadays, tons of squad members have pretty good optics.

We will have to disagree on the value of the 223 in competition. I'll keep running mine and having fun with it.

 

[generalzip]

Who said anything about a 9 SD? I get no better standard deviation out of my 22BR, 6 Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor or 300 Norma mag than I do my 223. Good load development is possible with every one of them.

And why do you have to shoot the most expensive Berger as a bullet price comparison? I shoot 80gr ELDMs, so I save plenty of money. 500 of them for $100

You're really painting worst case scenario. No Dasher or BR on the market is going to compare to the 5k rounds of barrel life you get from a 223.

I shoot my 223 for a fraction of the cost and hassle as any other comp rifle I've owned. And impact spotting isnt nearly as hard as everyone always makes it out to be on these forums. Everyone in my squad in that video was seeing the impacts on that 1263 yard plate. I was seeing them through my scope. The only guy asking us how we were spotting those was the guy with the foggy $50 KMart optic. Nowadays, tons of squad members have pretty good optics.

We will have to disagree on the value of the 223 in competition. I'll keep running mine and having fun with it.

you said single digit is single digit. I disagree. I think there is a tangible difference at extended ranges on the high Vs low end of single digit SD. You missed my point I guess.
I think comparing the same type of bullet and manufacturer between cartridges is the most fair way to compare cost. I can’t imagine how that’s hard to understand or illogical.
I agree a 6BR won’t get the same barrel life as a 223 but the 223 also won’t be anywhere near the performance of the 6BR on the categories I’ve already mentioned.


Where do you shoot? Here in the south mirage is a way of life. A 223 on half inch steel is simply not visible past 900 in mirage. You might as well fling your bullets in the berm because you’re not going to get hits called. Flashers being added is helping a lot with this issue but it will still be near impossible to see any splash. This is my experience down south.

again I own a 223. And I like it for what it is. But to argue you can be equally competitive in a PRS match vs using a BR family cartridge is a bit naive in my opinion. For example how do you shoot a 12 round stage which is very common nowadays?

 

[Birddog6424]

you said single digit is single digit. I disagree. I think there is a tangible difference at extended ranges on the high Vs low end of single digit SD. You missed my point I guess.
I think comparing the same type of bullet and manufacturer between cartridges is the most fair way to compare cost. I can’t imagine how that’s hard to understand or illogical.
I agree a 6BR won’t get the same barrel life as a 223 but the 223 also won’t be anywhere near the performance of the 6BR on the categories I’ve already mentioned.


Where do you shoot? Here in the south mirage is a way of life. A 223 on half inch steel is simply not visible past 900 in mirage. You might as well fling your bullets in the berm because you’re not going to get hits called. Flashers being added is helping a lot with this issue but it will still be near impossible to see any splash. This is my experience down south.

again I own a 223. And I like it for what it is. But to argue you can be equally competitive in a PRS match vs using a BR family cartridge is a bit naive in my opinion. For example how do you shoot a 12 round stage which is very common nowadays?

Yeh, we probably aren't completely on the same page with the points we are trying to make, but some are pretty clear cut.

Yes, single digit SD is single digit. Worst case scenario of 9SD versus 1 equals about 2" variance at 1000 yards with my 223s ballistics. Most often my SD is in the 3 to 7 range. I'll take that any day with any rifle.

And I would never claim the 223 is "as competitive" as any other caliber.It's not, I never claimed that. The 308 and 223 definitely give up some performance to the 6's and 6.5s. Mostly the 223 is a lot weaker in the wind. But, you CAN be competitive with it. Especially on some ranges that dont have really long 1000 plus yardage targets. My competition rifle is a 22BR running 88 gr ELDMs. So 22 caliber scares me not at all. The ballistics of it are neck and neck with the Dasher to 1100 yards. The 22BR is flatter, but gives up some inches once the wind gets over 10mph.

And we just have a difference of opinion that we have to compare the most expensive bullets. I dont run Bergers in my 223 because I don't have to. So my 223 is less expensive to shoot than my 6 or 6.5. Even my 22BR. My practice rounds using bulk Hornady 75gr BTHPs is a super cheap round for barricade practice and dot drills. I have buckets of brass from my 3 Gun days.

I'll concede you most likely have higher mirage. A lot more humidity than here in Idaho. We still get mirage of course. But I have very little issue spotting impacts last year with my 22BR, or my 223.

In a nutshell like I said, I just respectably disagree with a couple of your points. Mostly though I think a new guy should feel decent about a 223 as a starter rifle that they learn the ropes on for a season. Mostly because it will be fun and very educational.

 

[generalzip]

i agree a guy can start with a .223 and have fun. I guess my definition of competitive may a bit different. If I’m not top 5 at a national match I’m disappointed with myself. I can’t recall the last time I’ve seen a .223 on the podium. I guess my point to the OP was if you’re looking to take the competitive aspect seriously I’d be saving you some time by steering you away for a 223 rem. If your goal is to just have fun and plink and you don’t really care how you finish and want to do it as cheaply as possible than yes 223 would be a good option for you. Someone really
Needs to make a 12 round 223 mag....cough...MDT.... cough

 

[Birddog6424]

i agree a guy can start with a .223 and have fun. I guess my definition of competitive may a bit different. If I’m not top 5 at a national match I’m disappointed with myself. I can’t recall the last time I’ve seen a .223 on the podium. I guess my point to the OP was if you’re looking to take the competitive aspect seriously I’d be saving you some time by steering you away for a 223 rem. If your goal is to just have fun and plink and you don’t really care how you finish and want to do it as cheaply as possible than yes 223 would be a good option for you. Someone really
Needs to make a 12 round 223 mag....cough...MDT.... cough

Agreed on the magazine! I use a quiver to pull two rounds on 12 round stages.

And while we are wishing for magazines, AW needs to add another half inch to theres so it holds 12 instead of 11.