223 Freebore For 75-90 gr bullets

[spife7980]

So Im thinking Im going to have a criterion remage spun up and Im curious about the freebore to go with. It will be a 16.5" 22 cal, 7 twist, threaded and likely varmint profile.

It will probably be to shoot the new 85 rdf blems and possibly the new 90-95 sierras that just came out but those will be more expensive than the rdf blems so they are unlikely to be the primary choice. So for those large bullets Im thinking the rem match chamber with the .090 free bore is obviously geared to the 80gr+ bullets.

• Will the .090 freebore be too long to get a 75 eld up against the lands in the event that the rdf doesnt jive? And pending that can I assume that the wylde would be the best compromise? I know that the 75 elds are unlikely to shoot best against the lands but I would at least like the ability to test them there.

• Any chance the wylde and rem match are able to shoot the 53 gr bullets well too (I have lots of them already)? Or will there be too much air in front of them to be ideal?

Im certain the the standard chamber wont be ideal for what Im doing so I am only including it as a point for base line comparisons.

Prints courtesy of Northland Shooters Supply-
The standard 223 rem chamber, .025 of freebore

The 223 wylde, .0619 freebore and a neck .0018 wider

The 223 Match, .090 free bore

 

[308pirate]

The Wylde chamber works spectacularly well with all manner of 80 gr class .224 bullets. It's also versatile enough to shoot knots with bullets as short (light) as 45 grains.

All my NM ARs have been Wylde chambered.

NRA/CMP service rifle shooters have collectively more knowledge on the subject of heavy .224 bullets than any other group of shooters and the Wylde chamber is arguably the most popular one in that community. For a good reason.

 

[Xander3Zero]

I believe my bartlein has a standard 223 chamber, and with the 75 ELD I can only load them out to about 2.430" COAL before I touch the lands. Although I think the 75s are still going to perform admirably once I start development, I think I might be limited to 80gr max depending on how deep I have to seat them into the case.

So I agree with you, I think the standard 223 chamber should be out of the question, and I know there are many people here with wylde chambers that are having a lot of success with 75/80gr bullets so that would be my vote. It looks like the only difference between the standard 223 and the match chamber is the increased freebore? I thought that the match chamber had tighter body diameters, and thought I had read somewhere that it was more finicky with some factory ammo, but this could be false.

 

[natdscott]

Screw Criterion dude. If you want to shoot 90s, you will need to buy a blank no looser than 7.0" twist, and send it to somebody with a reamer for those bullets. It will also have to be 20-24" in length, or a 7-twist will not stabilize it.

The magic happens at 0.100-0.110" freebore at 0.2240" with a 1.5-degree Leade.

Measure brass carefully. I would not go less than a 0.252" neck, and if you intend to use Lapua, maybe 0.253". Lapua will measure 0.249-0.2495" across the neck, where Lake City and Winchester et al. come in at about 0.247"

But you have a serious decision to make.

Do you really want to run 90's? They are not a 16.5" barrel tool.

If the answer is "no", then you should just bail on the whole damn thing and be happy with Bill Wylde's lovechild and an 82 Berger, 80 SMK, or choose-your-Hornady-I-don't-shoot-them.

The 0.090" freebore quoted above is odd. Too short for 90's, kinda too long for 70's and 80's.

Now about the 52/53 BR bullets: they can be made to perform quite well in Wylde, etc. chambers. They are rather blunt tangent ogive bullets, and they tolerate jump quite well. That being said, do NOT count out the 69 Sierra or 73 Berger...1/4 Minute bullets, both. They also use the same powders as 80's. Hint. Hint.

-Nate

 

[spife7980]

It looks like the only difference between the standard 223 and the match chamber is the increased freebore? I thought that the match chamber had tighter body diameters, and thought I had read somewhere that it was more finicky with some factory ammo, but this could be false.

Thats pretty much what Im seeing, theres a slight difference (~.001) in the neck shoulder junction but I think thats a products of the standard chamber neck tapering from .255-.254 where as the match has a .254 neck the whole way.

 

[spife7980]

Screw Criterion dude.

Can you expand on this?

If you want to shoot 90s, you will need to buy a blank no looser than 7.0" twist, and send it to somebody with a reamer for those bullets. It will also have to be 20-24" in length, or a 7-twist will not stabilize it.

The magic happens at 0.100-0.110" freebore at 0.2240" with a 1.5-degree Leade.

Measure brass carefully. I would not go less than a 0.252" neck, and if you intend to use Lapua, maybe 0.253". Lapua will measure 0.249-0.2495" across the neck, where Lake City and Winchester et al. come in at about 0.247"

I have a box and a half of lapua here that Ive kind of been saving for when a new barrel happens, all of these necks are .254-.256 so it should give me enough of a buffer.

But you have a serious decision to make.

Do you really want to run 90's? They are not a 16.5" barrel tool.

If the answer is "no", then you should just bail on the whole damn thing and be happy with Bill Wylde's lovechild and an 82 Berger, 80 SMK, or choose-your-Hornady-I-don't-shoot-them.

The 0.090" freebore quoted above is odd. Too short for 90's, kinda too long for 70's and 80's.

I dont really want to run them but I think it could be cool if they could be made to work but I have had my trepidations on the short barrel with them as well, most who are shooting them are doing so in big long 28-30 inch barrels. I just like the little shorty rifle so much, I would rather have the short barrel than shoot the 90s.

Now about the 52/53 BR bullets: they can be made to perform quite well in Wylde, etc. chambers. They are rather blunt tangent ogive bullets, and they tolerate jump quite well. That being said, do NOT count out the 69 Sierra or 73 Berger...1/4 Minute bullets, both. They also use the same powders as 80's. Hint. Hint.

-Nate

The 53s I have are the varmadeggons, so not a BR bullet, just a good bc for its weight bullet that I was replacing my 60-69 loads with and I still have 7-800 or so of them left.

 

[natdscott]

Can you expand on this?

Yeah. It's nothing at all against Criterion's TUBES...it's about those reamers. Frankly, if I were them, I wouldn't carry a "90" reamer either...nobody asks for that swill except for masochists like myself. The 0.090" IS probably their "long" or "bolt gun" chamber.

Too, if you feel you need 90s, then you also need speed in the worst way unless you go to a 0.473" headstamp. Criterions are not noted for being particularly fast (not surprising)...so Krieger gets to be the option, unless you just go long. Kriegers have a history of being fast.

I have a box and a half of lapua here that Ive kind of been saving for when a new barrel happens, all of these necks are .254-.256 so it should give me enough of a buffer.

Yup, if you stick with a 0.256" like most Wyldes are, you'll really be just GREAT with Lapua. With the thinner brands lie I mentioned above, 0.256" is quite a bit, but keep in mind that Bill designed the chamber for gas guns that shit where they eat. We lowly AR guys need the extra clearance.

I dont really want to run them but I think it could be cool if they could be made to work but I have had my trepidations on the short barrel with them as well, most who are shooting them are doing so in big long 28-30 inch barrels. I just like the little shorty rifle so much, I would rather have the short barrel than shoot the 90s.

Well, send me an address and I'll send you a handful of 90 SMK. When you get it cranked out, drop some of them in there, put a piece of plywood at 50 yards, and you'll soon know if a 16.5" 7-twist will stabilize a 90. It won't, but it will be fun finding out.

My "short" barrel Long Range AR is 20". It's a 5R Left-twist 0.224/0.218 8.0-to-6.5" progressive CM Bartlein. It is cut with a 0.108" freebore chamber, and hasn't had a bullet through it less than 90 grains.

But you see what I had to do to make all that work? It's a PITA, but if a guy wants to shoot Service Rifle Palma, he has to make certain allowances.

The 53s I have are the varmadeggons, so not a BR bullet, just a good bc for its weight bullet that I was replacing my 60-69 loads with and I still have 7-800 or so of them left.

I imagine they'll shoot fine. There are only so many ways to make a 52/53, and those aren't a Low Drag design like the pointy Bergers, so I still bet they jump okay.


-Nate

 

[BoilerUP]

I ran 90gr VLDs in a Criterion 1:7 22" 223AI with a rather short 0.061" freebore...2750fps with 24.9gr Varget in fireformed Lapua brass.

No issues whatsoever with stability at 500' ASL, 29.92Hg, 60F at 650 yards.

If I were OP wanting a 16.5" fast twist 223, I'd run the 75gr ELD-M (which has a higher Litz G7 than the 80gr Amax did) or the 80gr ELD-M under a moderate to stiff charge of 8208XBR and expect 2700-2750fps.

 

[natdscott]

Don't I know you from somewhere Boiler? hehehe

I ran 90gr VLDs in a Criteiron 1:7 22" 223AI...

Note what he said here, Spife. You'd be lucky to do 2,500 in the tube you are considering with unmodifed .223.

If I were OP wanting a 16.5" fast twist 223, I'd run the 75gr ELD-M (which has a higher Litz G7 than the 80gr Amax did) or the 80gr ELD-M under a moderate to stiff charge of 8208XBR and expect 2700-2750fps.

You really think so?! In a short barrel?

Boiler, you should try a pound of 2000-MR. Hot stuff, but it sure is FASSSSST.

-Nate

 

[BoilerUP]

My experience with the 223 is an Ackley case is good for about 100fps more velocity than a standard case.

I had a 223 RPR (20") and was getting the 80gr Amax to 2800fps with Varget, so yeah I think running XBR out of 3.5" less barrel would keep an 80gr at or north of 2700. Drop down to 75s and gain another 50fps+.

These aren't Service Rifles man, you can lean on a load in a bolt gun!

 

[natdscott]

hehehe...I know, I know. But lemme-tell-you-what...you might not want to see these AR loads.

"Closest thing you'll ever get to recoil in an AR-15."

I've done a little .223 bolt gun loading, and it surely can be pushed, but primer pockets are still delicate in these little f*(^&ers. I will say that Lapua is WAYYY on better for HP loads in .223.

Do blue box casings matter so much for durability in .473 heads? Probly not. But these little 3/8" dudes need the help.

-Nate

 

[padom]

I'm running 75 ELDM in a 26" 1:7 with H4895 at 3013 no pressure 24.4g H4895. H4895 has been faster than 8208 and Varget by about 100fps.

I'm in the middle of a 26" .223 Wylde barrel review shooting 75 ELD-Ms with samples from Shilen, Criterion, Mullerworks and Bartlein...These numbers are pretty consistent across all 4 barrels...

 

[natdscott]

What has anybody seen with the 73 ELD?

 

[padom]

I only shoot 73 ELDM in my Bartlein and Shilen precision 20" AR's... 23.4g 8208XBR LC brass 205m 2.273" in ASC mags...2800 0.5moa accuracy...

My WOA's do not like the 73 ELD, they hammer with 77smk but the Ultramatch 1:8 Shilen ratchet rifling and Bartlein 1:7.7 compass lake love them

 

[spife7980]

I ran the stability on both jbm and berger and even with a velocity of only 2300 the 90s are still showing to be sufficiently stable. I know thats not real world but they arent even marginal, they are well sufficiently stable.

I was thinking about going ackley as well to make up some juice with the short tube but I dont think the juice would be worth the squeeze once I add in buying all new dies when Im already set up for normal 223.

 

[natdscott]

And resale value... I wouldn't.

I'd get happy with a 1/4 MOA 82 Berger load and know that it's an easy 500 yard rifle. Then I'd buy 1,000 box of them and burn 'em all.

 

[spife7980]

And resale value... I wouldn't.

I'd get happy with a 1/4 MOA 82 Berger load and know that it's an easy 500 yard rifle. Then I'd buy 1,000 box of them and burn 'em all.

Not gonna sell it lol, far too much invested in it as is. Cant give up my sunken costs! So Ill just sink more into it lol

Its already currently an easy 500 yard rifle (gets tough beyond that though), Im looking to take it to 800 or so regularly and to make my cousin feel stupid for buying his bulk-ammo-fed-308 when I out shoot him with this 223 because he thought the larger round would make up for his insistence on buying shit ammo.

The wylde looks to be pulling away from the pack.

 

[Geno C.]

When I set mine up I did a lot of measuring before I ordered a reamer. .100" was where I went wth freebore so I could shoot the 75amax and the heel of the bullet was at the neck shoulder junction. I run 80 amax and vlds and they could actually use a bit more throat length. If you want to run 90s I wouldn't consider anything less than .169 for a bolt gun especially with such a short barrel.

 

[Geno C.]

Even though it's an ackley, the neck and freebore measurements will give you the idea. I would go any shorter than this for 80 and heavier

 

[spife7980]

The opposite of what others are doing if your 80s are that far out. Others, are y’all putting the bottom of the bullet at the junction or do you have the boat tail down inside the case?

 

[Geno C.]

My 80s are below the neck shoulder junctions

 

[spife7980]

Ah, gotcha

 

[Geno C.]

80vld on the left. 75Amax on the right.

 

[BoilerUP]

I've got a similar question to OP...

I'm concerned that Criterion 223 Match freebore of 0.090" is too long for the 80gr ELD-M to reliably feed from an AI 223 magazine while kissing the lands.

The Criterion 223AI barrel I previously owned had 0.061" freebore, and IIRC the 80gr Amax touched the lands at 2.485"...a little worried an extra three thou getting OAL to 2.515" is pushing the 2.55" magazine max OAL.

 

[Geno C.]

.035 should be enough clearance. Is the eldm the same length from the ogive to the tip as the amax?

 

[RFutch]

Stupid question... The 80 SMK is a tangent ogive right?

 

[natdscott]

Correctamundo.

 

[Xander3Zero]

View attachment 6869843
80vld on the left. 75Amax on the right.

What is your COAL for the 75 on the right? And this is what you mentioned in an earlier post as the heel of the bullet at the neck-shoulder junction? So the heel is essentially where the major diameter of the bullet ends and the boattail begins?

 

[Geno C.]

That's right. Anything behind where the bearing surface meets the boat tail doesn't get affected by a donut. With such a short neck it can get tricky to get the bullet up that far and still get good throat life and be able to maintain your jump/jam. I'll measure coal in the morning.

 

[spife7980]

@Geno C. I too am curious about the OAL there in the pic for that 75 as well as the 80 and how far off the lands each is if you have that data.

 

[Geno C.]

80vlds 2.428 COAL; .012" off
75 amax 2.461 COAL; .007" off

 

[spife7980]

All well within the 2.55 aics mag restriction, thanks.

What I find interesting is that you are 2.461 with .007 of jump with a 75 amax which give us 2.468 to the lands on your .100 freebore. BoilerUp was at 2.485 with the 80 amax and touching with .061 freebore. There is a difference of .039 in your throats but they are only .017 apart in OAL to touch, does that seem reasonable for a 5 gr difference in the bullet? Im not familiar with any of the hornady offerings

 

[Geno C.]

It's hard to saw really. I have 80amax here also I plan on putting more time into this year. What he considers touching might be different than what I do. Different ways of measuring, different tools. Would be a bunch of things. My chamber has 300rds through it now also. Who really knows.

 

[padom]

With 75 ELDM in 3 barrels with 223 wylde chamber i touch lands at 2.51 COAL.

 

[Geno C.]

Bore diameters and lead angle could cause a difference also

 

[Seandradamus]

I'd definitely go for the 90 freebore , all the capacity you can get is helpful in that little case and can really affect the possible velocities .
Mine is a 100 freebore and I shoot 80 vlds and Jlks and occasionally 75 amaxs
I'm at 2.5 for 80 vlds
2.53 for jlks
2.54 for 80 eldms
All fit in my mags , all are jumping around 5 thou
All measure basically the same lto

Forgot to add same chamber same rifle 7.7 twist
Loves the 53vmax , I can seat them to the lands but they shoot the best at about 80 off, shoots consistent .2s and .3s

 

[spife7980]

I know yall said to go with the .090 but I was talking to Josh of PVA through PMs and I am going with his wylde prefit instead of criterion if only because hes active on the forum and Id like to support that.

 

[Geno C.]

That chamber works for a lot of guys. Don't let anyone tell you it won't!

 

[hunter223]

223 Wylde chamber ain’t no joke several groups like this that day

 

[PAYDIRT]

Did you get your barrel

 

[spife7980]

Did you get your barrel

Yeah. I was one of the early guys to experience the longer than expected delays from PVA, I was expecting 2-4 weeks when I ordered on Jan 31st and it ended up being June 25th, ~5 months. So not nearly as long as some others now but it was way longer than expected back then.

That said I have been very pleased with it. I havent taken any picks of stuff recently but here is from when I confirmed my load in it soon after getting it.
16" 223 wylde pva chamber

5 at 100 with the 75eld

5 at 500= 2 3/4"

Since then Ive taken it to 1k with good results though it starts to get a bit anemic past 800 to hear impacts (even see sometimes on large plates), Im very pleased with the barrel and the work done on it.

 

[PAYDIRT]

What freebore? I'm gonna do the Criterion barrel.

 

[spife7980]

What freebore? I'm gonna do the Criterion barrel.

PVA doesnt say what exactly his reamer is but he hasnt corrected me when Ive said its a .062 like the other wyldes are. So Im sort of assuming Im right there. For touch with the 75 eld I find that the extra .030 of the criterion match chamber would still fit inside my 2.55" sanded lip accurate mags.

I dont think you can go wrong between the .062 wylde and the .090 match chamber for the 75s. The huge 90 and 95 grain bullets I cant directly speak to for fitting in the mags or not but I imagine they would still fit and based off the comments above it looks to be a pretty safe bet.

 

[lennyo3034]

I’m pretty sure Josh uses the .223 wylde reamer. I have a Nucleus barreled action in .223 wylde at time FFL now, looking forward to picking it up. The heaviest I plan to shoot out of it are the 80 ELDm.

 

[spife7980]

Yeah, he’s uses a wylde. He just won’t give out the exact specifics of it.