Range Report .223 Group Help (need to tighten them up some)

J

jv101

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Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 22, 2009
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Medina,Ohio
#1
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">SCROLL DOWN SOME posts!! </span></span>


So I just got my IOR 3-18x42 FFP SH scope, and mounted her on my bushmaster varminter 24" 1:9 twist barrel.

First what i did, was get her on paper at 222 yards (why 222 you ask? well thats the distance from my back step to the target hah) Anyway i was using some cheap 55gr FMJ-BT PMC bronze to get it on paper. I also picked up a box of 55gr Hornady V-Max Moly to see how it would do! The PMC was shooting failry well for being plinking ammo, once i got the shots near the bullseye I called it a day!

So I the next day I cleaned the rifle/barrel, and went to set out the target to go shoot the Hornady! And well to my suprise i was VERY DISSAPPOINTED! Anyway, i started shooting and it was a bit high and to the right (4" high, and 3" right) so i adjusted and it brought it down close to the bullseye, SO i grabed a new targer to see how it would group once close to zero!

Well i probably shot about 10 rounds, and only 5 were on the target, i have no idea where others went (exept the one which cut the wire on our fence hah), not sure if its the ammo, or me. I didnt expect it to be this bad, i expected maybe a 2" group at about 200 yards!

Here is a picture:
0313091122.jpg


Any Idea on whats going on? Also Suggestions on other ammo would be good! Thinking of some black hills match ammo! (68gr MHP and 69gr SMK)


Thanks
 
#2
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

Stay away from the moly ammo (Or shoot nothing but moly). Not good to mix regular & moly (Others can & will chime with more detail). Clean it real well (moly can be a bear to get out) & shoot some more standard 55gr stuff to break it in

Once broken in I would expect that rifle to shoot 3" or so at ~200 yards with the 55gr stuff. 69gr match ammo should shoot very well in that rifle & I would try the Hornrady 75gr too (Not the Amax - too long for the magazine).
 
#3
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

This could be a number of things...

1. Breathing- Make sure you are breathing consistently
2. Vertical alignment of crosshairs
3. Stock weld change- Make sure you are shooting the same every time.

Of course this is assuming your equipment is setup correctly. Check your scope and make sure your screws are tight. It really looks like you need to work on technique though and make sure you are shooting the same way every time...

just my 2cents
 
#4
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

Thanks for the suggestios so far, the rifle has probably seen about 300-350 rounds soo far! I know my technique isnt perfect, but i didnt think it was soo bad that i would completely miss a target!

Ive also used cheap 50gr JHP Rem. UMC at 100 yards with 3/4" groups and at 222 yards with a 2" or so group (*so i may try those again, along with the 68-69 and 75gr MHP)
 
#5
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

What I notice is the vertical dispersion; your shots all seem to be well centered on the target but just straight up and down.

At 200 yards (222,) I would not expect such an outcome if you are shooting the same bullet for all the shots. In your post, I can't seem to figure which load you were using for this target.

Because of the near vertical dispersion, I would look at some type of mount or reticle issue, at least to make sure that is not a problem. Like Brando.john said, are the screws all tight? Things like that. If everything checks out, try to stick with one load and shoot again.
 
#6
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

All the shots on that target are 55gr V-max moly. And all the shots didnt go from top to bottom or bottom to top!

the shots were more scattered. And there are still shots that arent even on target!

also everything seems to be tight, and i was shooting from a table with a bipod (if that makes any difference)
 
#7
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

Get someone else to shoot it and see what happens. Also, how were you holding the rifle when you were shooting off the bench? Lastly, is the fore-end tight? I had a case recently where my fore end was a little loose and my scores suffered as a result.
 
#8
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

Bipods can jump on a table if you are not positioned directly behind the rifle. Also please check that paralax is adjusted correctly. Just a few things to check.
YMMV-Rob
 
#10
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

ill try these things next few times im out!

the thing i cant understand is how can the PMC all be on target and then the hornady be both on and off the target. I would imagine by paying almost $1 per round it would group better then pinking ammo.
 
#11
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

well went out and did some 100 yard shoot today!

results werent too bad! Thinking of picking up some 68gr or 75gr Black hills match ammo and testing that at 100 and 200 yards!
 
#12
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

I have the same rig,

Here is what worked for me, bipod, and monopod on stock, the gun MUST BE STABLE. Squeeze the trigger to the first stage and wait for your hart to slow down, don’t rush it. Shoot prone on ground, cheap pmp 55gr fmj BT or even steel case wolf ammo,

½ inch groups at 100yd and yesterday, 331yards all the room we had, 10 round 4 inch group in under 60 seconds.

The gun is not fussy on what you feed it but you have to nail it to the ground, No movement. That’s what works for me any way.

Good luck and keep me posted if you still have trouble.
 
#13
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

Stormin- What ammo were you using when you shot yesterday?

it would probably help if i either get a monopod or front/rear bag/rest for it, its not like i hunt with it, mainly a paper punching rig, and varmint rig if need be!
 
#14
Re: .223 Group/Range Help


I have tried all kinds of ammo, bullet weights; ect this gun does not seem to care what it eats. My buddy also has one and has shot the same as me,

I am no pro,
I found you really have to nail the gun down and I think you will be Impressed

You definitely need a bipod and some type of bag or rest on the bottom of the stock to hold her down.
 
#15
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

interesting! was just wondering what you were shooting yesterday!

maybe ill stop by the local gun shop and see if they have a rear rest/bag and possible pick it up!

i have noticed my gun does seem to favor HP a little more then FMJ's, so im hopefully picking up some cheap remington UMC 50gr HP's tomorrow also!
 
#18
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

I have a trick that might help.

Use a bipod and attach a sling to both studs, front and rear. Adjust it so it's has some slack. Pass the non-trigger hand between the rifle and sling while in the prone position, and reach back with that hand and use it to squeeze the rear bag/guide the rifle butt. That elbow will bear down on the sling. Readjust the sling so it holds that elbow just clear of the ground and supports the upper body weight.

This arrangement preloads the bipod downward with enough force to overcome any tendency toward bipod jump.

It might help you. Yes, it feels odd at first; but it's quite effective, especially once you get used to it.

Greg
 
#19
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

Thanks for the advice!

bought a rear bag today and picked up a box of silver bear 62gr HP.

i have noticed with the silver bear the firt shot is always dead center at 100 yards (my cold bore shot), then when the barrel heats up the shots move left and up! could be the ammo, could be the barrel, could still be partially me!

however the groups did get a tad bit better (good enough to kill a ghog at 150yards! didnt get a chance to shoot it at 200 yards yet!

Also, buying a box of black hills ammo tonight, need advice on which to go with 68gr Match HP, 69gr SMK or 75gr Match HP or should i go ligther and use 52gr Match HP?
 
#20
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

The walking zero phenomenon associated with barrel heating can be tamed with a front pressure pad. It is not without significant side effects, and consequently, I am in the process of padding most of my barrels, rezeroing, and checking to see if load redevelopment is needed. Such redevelopment is more likely than unlikely, but the ultimate outcomes usually make it worthwhile.

Heres' how it works.

I put a pad of peel-off Foamies material out in the bottom of the very end of the barrel channel. How much thickness depends, but the intent is to introduce enough upward flex into the barrel to overcome any similar upward forces that harmonics might generate.

This ensures that the POI is not free to wander due to internal barrel stresses that can be influenced by heat (and maybe other things too, but the pad works for them too, whatever they may be). I use a compressible material to reduce/eliminate barrel rebound that occurs when the barrel rests on a rigid support.

This can, usually does, alter barrel harmonics, so loads can be affected, and the best time to do this is right up front, before doing any load developement that might be negated by the altered harmonics.

Other things can also result.

The POI can be shifted upward, with the same effect as installing a sloped scope rail.

That's called a freebie.

Is it better than a free float? It often is, and in my own instance, has never been a negative. Obviously, this is still a work in progress and may uncover negatives.

But life is about learning, and I'm still alive.

I recently had a serious flirtation with harmonic barrel tuners that turned out to be both effective and inconsistent. Lessons learned, no damage done, we move on, a very little bit poorer but wiser. That's my approach, cheap and reversible.

Greg
 
#21
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

hmm interesting, im going to run some actual match stuff through it before anything else i think.

I didnt think after 2 shots the barrel would heat up that much it would adjust the POI. The barrel has less than 500 rounds through it also, so it still has alot of life left!

later tonight i believe i will just order some 68gr MHP black hills. I will shoot this at 100 and 200-250 yards when i try it!

if there is anything else you can think of let me know. also what is some good stuff to fill front/rear rest bags with?
 
#22
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

Fish Tank Sand.

It's fine, clean, packaged in convenient quantities, available at Wallyworld, and even comes in designer colors. It's what I've always used.

Find a funnel that fits into the inlet tube, and is large enough inside to fit a pencil's eraser end all the way through past the funnel's end.

When the bag is 'full', tamp the sand inside with the eraser end and add some more sand. It makes it a lot firmer.

Greg
 
#23
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

alright just wondering, in my rear bag the only thing i had was some type of sand my dad gave me, looks like sand blasting sand! which it probably is hah, oh well it works well!

when i get a chance i may try these silver bear 62r HP's at 200 yards to see if they tighten up all the way, i know for some bullets 100 yards isnt always enough for them to fully stabalize

<span style="font-weight: bold">another quick question...when makig range cards/figuring out drop via a ballistic calc. do you base your dope on the impact? or the drop of the bullet?

for example if your zero'd at 100 yards and want to dial in for 200 yards, the impact is -5.33 but the drop is 10.58 which would you use?</span>
thanks
 
#25
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

greg,

you have been alot of help so far! i am just kind of wondering if i go by the impact or the drop, the more i look at it the more i think i go with the impact cuz the drop at 0 yards is 0 then the drop at 200yards its 10" but the impact at 100 yards (my zero) is 0 and at 200 yards its -5"
 
#27
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

was able to get out yesterday and do some shoot, tried shooting a little farther then i have before, shot at 225 yards and roughtly 300 yards, I was just using some cheap 62gr HP silver bear ammo, so its nothing fancy, will have some Black Hills coming in soon, also my try hornady 75gr HP's and corbon 69gr

225 yards:
2223-23-09.jpg


roughly 300 yards: (5 shots)
3003-23-09.jpg


 
#28
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

Just keep in mind that if you are using milsurp, factory 55s, 62s, Russian stuff, etc, you aint gonna get super tight groups...just aint gonna happen. Garbage in, garbage out. Want tight groups, shoot good stuff.

Actually, I think your targets look pretty good considering what you were throwin at them. Get some good ammo and you can really see what you can do.

John
 
#29
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

thanks john!

will have some black hills 68gr match HP tomorrow! hopefully the wind dies down in the next week to where i can get out and shoot at 100-300 yards!
 
#30
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

was able to get out and shoot at 100 and 300 yards tdoay. Got my 68gr Black hills match HP ammo and used that to see how well it did, pretty impressed and im sure the groups can get smaller (most of it is probably me now!)

Temp: 65
Wind: 3-5 mph

100 yard 5 shot group (far left shot is 1st shot/cold bore) group measures just over 1.5"
68gr100yards.jpg


300yard 5 shot group.. Measures about 2.7"
68gr300yard.jpg
 
#31
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

anyone give me some advice on how to tighten these groups up a little bit? i know the ammo and gun should be capable of doing 1/2 to 3/4 MOA

at 100 yards i was shooting prone with bipod and a rear bag
and at 300 yards i was shooting off a card table (all i had at the time) with bipod and rear bag.

I know its hard to kind of to figure out what needs to be done, im kind of just asking on some tips i can do, that may help me tighten them up some!
 
#32
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

without watching your technique i see some follow through issues. you need to stay into the gun through recoil. even if you think you are; you are probably just relaxing a split second before recoil is finished. second, i am wondering what your stock weld, scope height, and cant looks like. if you are using rings in the 2" or plus area to get your glass above your charging handle etc a few things happen. first, any cant at all on the gun is magnified by the height of the scope above bore. second, high rings generally result in piss poor stock weld. if you are holding your head up off the gun to get sight picture and alignment you need to install a cheek rest and let that 8lb melon firmly sit on the stock in the same spot everytime. this is where i would start if i were watching you. good luck
 
#33
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

Your dispersion is a product of several factors, of which the things you can conrol are only a part. Until you can get that manmade dispesion down to where it's a good bit less than the enviromentally made dispersion, you won't be able to tell what's causing the flyer.

My approach woudl be to go indoors with a scoped rimfire, and practice the basics until you have the confidence to go back outside and stack them all on the same quarter at 100yd.

Besides the basics, the most important thing is to be able to call your shot.

Until your shot call is accurate to within the limits of the rifle and ammo's limitations indoors, you're probably only going to get marginal benefit from shooting the centerfire outdoors. When you can achieve this indoors, going outdoors will introduce you to the consequences of environmental effects, and the race with then be well and truly on. That will be a moment of true revelation.

The basics and the process of calling the shot are already well covered on this site, so I won't go all 'Pedantic Avenger' on you. Now's the time to get really familiar with the search function if you haven't already. I almost wish I could be there with you and be watching your face when that lighbulb clicks on over your head and you finally get that 'aha moment' handle on steering the accurate rifle. The wait is so worthwhile...

Greg
 
#34
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your dispersion is a product of several factors, of which the things you can conrol are only a part. Until you can get that manmade dispesion down to where it's a good bit less than the enviromentally made dispersion, you won't be able to tell what's causing the flyer.

My approach woudl be to go indoors with a scoped rimfire, and practice the basics until you have the confidence to go back outside and stack them all on the same quarter at 100yd.

Besides the basics, the most important thing is to be able to call your shot.

Until your shot call is accurate to within the limits of the rifle and ammo's limitations indoors, you're probably only going to get marginal benefit from shooting the centerfire outdoors. When you can achieve this indoors, going outdoors will introduce you to the consequences of environmental effects, and the race with then be well and truly on. That will be a moment of true revelation.

The basics and the process of calling the shot are already well covered on this site, so I won't go all 'Pedantic Avenger' on you. Now's the time to get really familiar with the search function if you haven't already. I almost wish I could be there with you and be watching your face when that lighbulb clicks on over your head and you finally get that 'aha moment' handle on steering the accurate rifle. The wait is so worthwhile...

Greg </div></div>

maybe I should make a drive up to you and go to a range and we can work the kinks out hah! I was/am almost half tempted on going to a range/finding an instructor/someone with more knowledge than me and working with them! (doesnt seem like a bad idea to me!)
 
#35
Re: .223 Group/Range Help

I'm absolutely certain you could find someone better at this stuff than me, and a lot closer to home. But your second idea is just about what I was going to suggest next. Find the shooters, and join up. The most important thing I've learned about learning is that it works best with eyes and ears open, and mouth closed. Not a criticism, just some good advice.

Mentoring and coaching are the methods I've used to gain knowledge and to pass it on.

For coaching, it's probably a good idea to find a partner, and take turns observing and critiquing. The coach doesn't need to be superduper, just observant and frank. Knowledge is wasted if it's not passed on, and the passing on is the final step in learning, where the learner finally manages to articulate the info into terms another can comprehend.

For mentoring, look for an NRA certified instructor. Our Club thought it was valuable enough that there are at least a half dozen at our cub, and they even helped us with our tuition. There were enough candidates that we were able to have it done right in our clubhouse.

Greg
 
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