PRS Talk 223 prs build

[hengehold]

After ~2850fps at max mag length in a custom freebore chamber I start popping some primers with crimped brass in hot weather with a 29.5 inch barrel. 2900+ is not realistic in a 223 with 88s IMO. That's the exception not the rule and is very likely not going in a magazine.

agreed.
To the OP, I would like to add that if your goal is to shoot a bullet heavier than 80 gr at speeds greater than 2900 ft./s, then you should be looking at cartridges other than the 223. Those expectations are just not safe.

ballistically speaking, a magazine length 223 sucks in the wind. If you want to shoot that cartridge then I think you have to just except it for what it is.
A phenomenally accurate cartridge with no recoil and great barrel life that is a handicap in the wind. I say this as a 223 fan myself.

Just my .02

 

[Swoodhouse19]

I have a 24" barrel....I haven't seen drastic velocity decrease from friends 28" .....

 

[PracticalTactical]

agreed.
To the OP, I would like to add that if your goal is to shoot a bullet heavier than 80 gr at speeds greater than 2900 ft./s, then you should be looking at cartridges other than the 223. Those expectations are just not safe.

ballistically speaking, a magazine length 223 sucks in the wind. If you want to shoot that cartridge then I think you have to just except it for what it is.
A phenomenally accurate cartridge with no recoil and great barrel life that is a handicap in the wind. I say this as a 223 fan myself.

Just my .02

Why limit the round to magazine length?

If you use an AI pattern mag, you have the real estate to run longer rounds with a 223, so you don't need to go to a larger cartridge.

If you modify the Accurate mag then you can get 2.630" easy enough and even longer if you want.

Extending the seating depth lowers chamber pressures and that allows you to safely increase the powder charge, so you can safely hit or even exceed 2900 FPS with heavies.

F Class guys in Canada have been passing 2900 FPS with 90 grainers in a 223 for 15 years.

Just don't expect to do it with a short overall length.

 

[Swoodhouse19]

Thanks. I’ll look into AM mags

 

[padom]

I would have a 22br if I didnt already have two 220TB barrels and a shit ton of brass. I throw 90smk over 3000 with a mild load. 223 your limited to powder capacity, regardless how long you seat them. You need to have at least a caliber length of bearing surface in the neck.

 

[PracticalTactical]

At some point you guys just need to move up to a 22 BR...jeesh...

Great idea until we think about it for 3 seconds...

With a 22BR we would...

Pay 5 times as much for brass...
Eliminate the option of purchasing over the counter ammunition just about anywhere…
Eliminate the option of firing any of the 2000 rounds of mil surp ammo we have stock piled...
Purchase new dies, bushings etc...
Enjoy the short round feed issues so popular with mag feed BR...
Go 30 FPS faster
Rank top 39% instead of top 40% in our next PRS match

It's just not worth it.

 

[padom]

Great idea until we think about it for 3 seconds...

With a 22BR we would...

Pay 5 times as much for brass...
Eliminate the option of purchasing over the counter ammunition just about anywhere…
Eliminate the option of firing any of the 2000 rounds of mil surp ammo we have stock piled...
Purchase new dies, bushings etc...
Enjoy the short round feed issues so popular with mag feed BR...
Go 30 FPS faster
Rank top 39% instead of top 40% in our next PRS match

It's just not worth it.

You've been making constant statements about irregularly long, non typical 223 rounds with heavies run in extremely long freebore 223 chambers with heavily modified mags to get "close to" 2900 with 90's.. but now your countering statements made about shooting milsurp ammo, your brass cost over the life of.the brass is WAY off, your not.buying over the counter 2.60 90gr factory ammo, there are zero short round feed issues with BR if you use the correct mags, I've never had a single feed issue in my TL3's with BR, I'm getting over 3000 with mild charges with 90smk, and load development went up to 3150 without pressure....

So let's get the right info out there to compare to start.

LC brass shooting 90s @ 2900 isnt getting more than a few reloads out of it. BR gets 20-30 reloads or more.

 

[DIBBS]

80s is where it's at in 223rem. I run my 80 Amax at 2.51 and mags go out to 2.55... save the 90s for 22br, 220TB, 22cr, 224V....

@padom are you running standard AICS or MDT mags or something else? I am currently limited on my COL 223's by short throats so cannot achieve the velocities others are getting. Also I have relatively short barrels. However they shoot, but I am planning for the rebarrels down the road. One standard 8 twist that mimics it's big brother 6.5 x 47 gets fed a steady diet of 77's, a 7.3 twist 223 AI gets both 77's and 75 Amaxes @ 2850, but I will probably back that down a smidge as it seems an occasional LC surplus case gets sticky ahead of the web with my current load.

 

[padom]

@padom are you running standard AICS or MDT mags or something else? I am currently limited on my COL 223's by short throats so cannot achieve the velocities others are getting. Also I have relatively short barrels. However they shoot, but I am planning for the rebarrels down the road. One standard 8 twist that mimics it's big brother 6.5 x 47 gets fed a steady diet of 77's, a 7.3 twist 223 AI gets both 77's and 75 Amaxes @ 2850, but I will probably back that down a smidge as it seems an occasional LC surplus case gets sticky ahead of the web with my current load.

I'm running AICS 223 mags that allow up to 2.565 but MDT 223 allows the same. 223 AICS mags arent made anymore but they sell in the PX frequently

 

[PracticalTactical]

You've been making constant statements about irregularly long, non typical 223 rounds with heavies run in extremely long freebore 223 chambers with heavily modified mags to get "close to" 2900 with 90's.. but now your countering statements made about shooting milsurp ammo, your brass cost over the life of.the brass is WAY off, your not.buying over the counter 2.60 90gr factory ammo, there are zero short round feed issues with BR if you use the correct mags, I've never had a single feed issue in my TL3's with BR, I'm getting over 3000 with mild charges with 90smk, and load development went up to 3150 without pressure....

So let's get the right info out there to compare to start.

LC brass shooting 90s @ 2900 isnt getting more than a few reloads out of it. BR gets 20-30 reloads or more.

So you're confusing what I can do with what I choose to do? I don't understand how this is complicated for you.

FYI, 223 is an over the counter round that can feed from the mags as I have modified them. SAMMI spec rounds can also be safely fired from the rifle. That is not to say I do that, simply what I can do or anyone could do who may choose to configure a 223 in such a way.

Most of the free world know what a 223 is and where to get such ammo. Not really the case with a 22BR is it.

As for brass life, I don't know how many reloads I'll get, but I'm at 6 reloads now on my test lot and have no loose primers yet... Not one. If I get 10 reloads I'll be just fine with that but I'll bet I will get more.

So what if your 22 BR goes a little faster. It's an almost meaningless difference if you run the ballistics. It has a greater powder capacity and therefore should go faster. It's also not an over the counter round and would have a much smaller potential buyers base if you decide to sell it.

How much better is your wind drift at 800 yards as a result of the extra 250 FPS?

BTW I doubt very much that you are actually getting 30 reloads if you are running 90s at 3150 FPS with a 22BR. I would think at that speed with 90s you are running similar pressures to my rig and would have similar brass life.

 

[PracticalTactical]

Seriously?!! ?

If I was only placing in the top 39% I would definitely stop fucking around with a 223

The point is that 90 percent of the shooters involved in PRS are not in the top 10 percent. And regardless of caliber they would still not be in the top 10 percent.

If you think a simple caliber change is all it takes to win PRS then you know a whole lot less about the game than I do.

Arguing the benefits of one cartridge against another is a conversation for those in the top 10 percent and the outcome of that debate applies only to them, and you will find it on the scoreboard. To everyone else it's a waste of energy.

 

[PracticalTactical]

Sure I'm pushing the 223,but only in the same way you are pushing the 22BR.... Meaning I'm letting the bullet sit with the bearing surface just forward of the neck and shoulder junction.

The way I look at it, the popular version of the traditional favorite competition cartridges is simply due to the long throat they are chambered with.

Your 22BR has a long throat… its not rigged for 40 grainers right. It's throated for 90s.... Same as my 223.

Consider the 6 Creedmoor… same thing... long throat... 6.5 Creed... long throat.

It's not that I can ballistically outperform a 22BR, I'm just getting the most out of a cartridge I have been reloading since 1979.

I've chased other calibers too over the years. I was one of the first guys to build a 6X57L maybe a dozen or more years ago. It was crazy accurate and I liked it a lot, but in F Open, it wasn't quite cutting it at the time. The A-Tips probably change that today, but DTACs and Bergers were the best I could get at the time.

And I've been shooting F Class with a guy who has stuck with the 223 for 20 years. He's one of the few who has. But I can tell you that out to 600 yards under mild to typical conditions he is just as competitive as a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved on the score board anyway, regardless of what the ballistic differences are. I've been there to see him win the stages and he's not beat up by recoil.

Sure he fades in the pack farther out, but that is on a 1/2 MOA F Class bull.... Not a 2 MOA (or bigger) steel plate, or a moose or bear farther out.

Even if there is a realistic advantage to changing calibers, we are all simply free to play the game how we want.

I do not criticize your choice for preferring a 22BR. Hey, go for it.

I'm comfortable doing what I'm doing and not comfortable with repressing the advancement pairing a long throat with a 223 represents.

Guys are just so normalized to letting the common mag lengths limit the 223 throat length. Instead we should be collectively pushing the 223 AI pattern mag producers to increase the length, so we don't have to modify the mags.

Even if guys don't load for 2900 FPS, it's still the best performing long range 223 configuration I've come upon in all this time, and I cant wait to try the new 90 grain A-Tips when available.

As for PRS suitability... I'm sure you've seen tactical division shooters shoot in the top 10 or so on occasion, I have. This rifle seriously out performs my 308 with a whole lot less recoil.

 

[DIBBS]

Instead we should be collectively pushing the 223 AI pattern mag producers to increase the length, so we don't have to modify the mags.

This would be awesome- for both the standard 223 as well as the Ackley Improved version.

 

[danthecarpenter]

I shoot mostly club matches where targets beyond 800ish are few. Last year I shot 75 eldm in Tac which is fun until the wind picks up. Going with 88 eld this year and back shooting open. So far the 88’s are really shooting great. 26” X-Caliber 223 Wylde, 88 eld, recycled LC brass, 23.8g AR-Comp, Rem 7-1/2, 2.54” col, MDT mags, 2820 FPS. I figure the bulk of the targets are in the 400-600 yd range where a 223 can be very competitive, then a hand full beyond that where you start giving up more to the dashers and such. For me and what I do, I think it will fit the bill. (Until I can get a 6mm up and running again)
Dan

 

[PracticalTactical]

I shoot mostly club matches where targets beyond 800ish are few. Last year I shot 75 eldm in Tac which is fun until the wind picks up. Going with 88 eld this year and back shooting open. So far the 88’s are really shooting great. 26” X-Caliber 223 Wylde, 88 eld, recycled LC brass, 23.8g AR-Comp, Rem 7-1/2, 2.54” col, MDT mags, 2820 FPS. I figure the bulk of the targets are in the 400-600 yd range where a 223 can be very competitive, then a hand full beyond that where you start giving up more to the dashers and such. For me and what I do, I think it will fit the bill. (Until I can get a 6mm up and running again)
Dan

What overall length are you seating 88s to Dan?

I'm thinking the same way... the bulk of the targets are inside the zone of competence for 223. Sure some targets are out there and we may loose a few points farther out but its a low percentage of point loss. Besides, just because its out there doesn't mean you will miss, you still might hit it, even if the scorer doesn't notice the hit. It's an acceptable risk of loss to me.

My Garmin says I'm supersonic to about 925 yards and I'm good with that.

 

[danthecarpenter]

2.54”. They just fit in an un-modded MDT poly mag.