Range Report 223ai vs 308

[223ai]

I thought it would be interesting to compare two different chamberings using the same methods, same (relatively) conditions, with bullets that might be considered ideal for their respective caliber and barrel twist. The goal is to challenge some conventional thinking, and to offer some real world comparisons. I plan on using this thread to provide results, pictures, and updates. I think the results will be interesting.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Rifles:</span>

223ai
8 Twist Rock Barrel at 22 inches

308
11.27 Twist Rock Barrel at 20 inches

<span style="font-weight: bold">Ammunition:</span>
223ai -
I am awaiting a shipment of 2500 Swampworks 80gr JLK VLD's and will use fully formed LC cases, Ramshot TAC Powder, loaded for a .010 jump and CCI 400 primers. Based on past load development, I can expect 2925-2950 FPS before I see pressure signs, but will do a full load workup before I start comparison testing. I chose the 80gr JLK's for their published BC (G1) of .510 (couldn't find any G7 numbers), though I anticipate that the actual BC is somewhat less.

.308 -
I have approximately 1500 155gr Lapua Scenars, and will use once fired (in my chamber) Winchester brass, Varget, and CCI 200 primers. Based on past load development, with a 20 inch Rock barrel, I anticipate 2850-2875fps (20-30fps more if I run it suppressed). I will do a full load workup with this rifle as well. I chose the 155's because of their Litz tested (G7) BC of .234 and because of their popularity with the tactical crowd.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Ballistics Comparison:</span>

I am using the Berger Ballistics Program (http://www.bergerbullets.com/Ballistics%20Program/index.html) for initial comparison purposes

308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.308 inches | Temperature: 85 degrees | Sight Height: 1.5 inches |
| Weight: 155 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
| G7 BC: 0.234 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 040 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G7 Form Factor: 0.998 | Density: 0.07237 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 2850 fps| Wind Speed: 10 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock| |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MILS) (sec) (MILS)
0 2850 2795 0.00 0.0000 0.00
100 2658 2432 -0.00 0.1090 -0.18
200 2474 2107 -0.48 0.2259 -0.38
300 2298 1817 -1.16 0.3518 -0.59
400 2128 1559 -1.96 0.4874 -0.81
500 1966 1330 -2.87 0.6341 -1.06
600 1810 1127 -3.89 0.7931 -1.32
700 1660 948 -5.04 0.9662 -1.60
800 1515 790 -6.35 1.1553 -1.92
900 1377 653 -7.83 1.3630 -2.26
1000 1246 535 -9.53 1.5921 -2.64

</div></div>

223ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.224 inches | Temperature: 85 degrees | Sight Height: 1.5 inches |
| Weight: 80 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
| G1 BC: 0.510 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 40 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G1 Form Factor: 0.447 | Density: 0.07237 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 2925 fps| Wind Speed: 10 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock| |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MILS) (sec) (MILS)
0 2925 1520 0.00 0.0000 0.00
100 2746 1340 -0.00 0.1058 -0.16
200 2575 1177 -0.43 0.2187 -0.33
300 2409 1031 -1.06 0.3391 -0.51
400 2250 899 -1.79 0.4679 -0.71
500 2097 781 -2.62 0.6060 -0.91
600 1950 676 -3.53 0.7544 -1.13
700 1810 582 -4.55 0.9141 -1.37
800 1678 500 -5.68 1.0862 -1.63
900 1554 429 -6.94 1.2720 -1.90
1000 1440 368 -8.35 1.4727 -2.19
</div></div>

On paper, the 80 gr JLK is tough to beat, so it'll be interesting to get some real world data between the two. If anything, it'll be fun to test and I'm looking forward to starting the process next week.

I would love to have some feedback as to what I should or shouldn't be doing regarding testing and comparison. Feel free to contribute!

Thanks,
Josh

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

I finished my load development with the 80gr JLK's this evening. I opted to switch to Varget from TAC after experiencing some very significant velocity spreads with my TAC loads. Here are some of the targets:

Target one (Top right) was 26.5 Varget, CCI 400's, Formed LC brass,80gr JLK .005" into the lands. Velocity was decent (2920ish fps) but I knew that I could load hotter and get better accuracy.

Target two (Top left) was 26.6, and the bullet .010" into the lands. Not a significant velocity change

Target three (Bottom Left) was 26.7, everything else remained the same, but velocity was a bit better. Meh.

Now it gets better.

Target 4 (top) is 26.8, with velocity hovering at 2940ish fps, and much better accuracy.

Target 5 (Bottom) is 26.9, with an average velocity of 2952 fps. The spread between the five shots was right at 20fps, which I'll gladly take. Throwing out the flier (Which I shanked very badly. Knew as soon as I pulled the trigger. The 4 shot group was so damn good that I turned into Chris Farley on the 5th shot), I am very happy with the results. I experienced no pressure signs and Quickload shows me at approximately 70k psi.

I freely admit that I am a terrible shot, and my rifle is capable of much more in the hands of a _9H, or Lowlight. It'll come with more practice though, and I'm looking forward to it.

Next I'll be testing at 200, 300. and 600. Assuming everything looks good, I'll be sticking with this load, and will be shooting this rifle at the Shooters Bash at Rifles Only in December.

All testing was done in 5 shot groups, off of a Redman rear bag, Harris Bipod, using a ProChrono Chronograph. Temperature was hovering at 90 degrees, and I am at sea level.

Best,
Josh

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

I shot at 200 yards, 300 yards, and 600 yards both yesterday and today. Unfortunately, I neglected to take pics at 300 and 600. Apologies.

The 200 yard conditions were as follows:
87 degrees
sea level
wind from left to right at 5 mph to about 13 mph
Humidity at approximately 45%
I took .4 mils on the first target, and dialed .2 mils for wind.
I took .3 mils on the second target, and didn't dial or hold for any wind.
Here are the 200 yard results:

While I am happy with the grouping, I am terrible at reading wind.

300 Yard Results:

I had to qualify at another local range to be allowed to shoot the longer range steel targets. The qualification rules state that one must hold 5 shots in the bullseye at 300 yards. This morning, I gave it a go with a 4-5 mile per hour crosswind, and about 80 degrees in temperature. Dope was 1 mil on the nose, and I dialed .2 mils for wind. Unfortunately, I have no pictures of the targets.

The first target gave me 4 shots in the very left of the bullseye (just outside of the "x"-ring I think), with one dropped way low in the orange. I was having some serious problems spotting hits and making corrections due to mirage and a shadow.

The second target gave me all five shots in the bullseye, about .75 moa grouping, with 3 in the "x" ring. I wasn't really worried about shooting for a group, so I ran through those five rounds in about 30 seconds. I was very happy with these results.

So far so good with this rifle and bullet combo. I am very pleased with these results.

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

Once I qualified at 300, I had the opportunity to shoot steel targets at 600. Without question, shooting steel is MUCH more fun than shooting paper. The conditions were as follows:

80ish degrees
sea level
45% humidity
5-8mph crosswind from our 3:00

The targets were a mix of a small chest sized plate, a 12"x12" plate, an 8" circle, and a 24"x24" plate. I chose to focus on the 12"x12" plate for the first relay of shots. Given the conditions, I dialed 3.6 mils of elevation and held the right edge of the plate. I had hits with all ten rounds.

I then moved to the 8" circle. 8 rounds with 8 hits. Same dope as above.

I then moved to the small chest sized plate. 8 rounds, 6 hits. I couldn't see the damn thing through the mirage.

I am gaining a lot of confidence with this 223ai and JLK combo, and it sure is fun to shoot. The only thing I struggle with is that the 80gr bullet makes it hard to spot misses and hard to spot hits on heavy plates as the small bullets do little to move the plate very much.

Good day today.

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

....saved for 1000 yard result....

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: 223ai vs 308

Looks great, I got my 80g JLK's in but have been unable to get to the range to do any testing in my standard 223 bolt.

 

[ACLakey]

Re: 223ai vs 308

Thanks for the post, I am eager to see the longer range results.

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

bump for results at 200/300/and 600.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: 223ai vs 308

I ran mine to 1k today (standard 223 match chamber throated for 75 amax) the chronograph at the range was not working so I am guessing my velocity was between 2775-2790 from previous load data.

My drops were 500y-9.75, 600y-13.5, 700y-17.25, 800y-21.75, 900y-26.?? (could not see impacts well but likely 26.50) 1000y-32.25 on the nose with a clean target.

The conditions;
961 ASL, 29.95 corrected pressure, 72degrees, about 50% humidity and switching winds from 6 o’clock to 4 o’clock at 5-7mph w/ gusts up to 12mph

So in my opinion it looks like a G7 bc of .242-.244 matches well, that would be around a g1 of .480

I am impressed with the jlk’s performance. I also shot 80 a-max with a known velocity of 2790 and the jlk used 2.25moa less elevation at 1k with less horizontal spread.

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: 223ai vs 308

funny how the 223 beats out the 308 with over 15 grains less powder. much cheaper practice round than the 308

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: 223ai vs 308

JPipes any updates on how this is working for you?

 

[Cegorach]

Re: 223ai vs 308

That is very impressive. Puts a good reason behind my want of a .223 AI. You can't argue with those results. Any idea what kind of barrel life will be expected with that combination?

I might have to think about shifting some things around and see if I can end up with one. Diggler makes an excellent point about the monetary considerations as well.

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

Sorry guys, no updates yet (with pictures anyway). I opted to swap the stocks on my 223ai from an HTG to an A1-3, so it's currently being pillar bed.

I did run my 308 at 400 and 600 with 155's at 2850 fps, and i am .2-.3 mils difference in elevation compared to my 223ai, wind is hard for me to quantify.

I'll do a more formal work-up, with pictures, on my 308 in the next couple of weeks.

I appreciate the interest.

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cegorach</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is very impressive. Puts a good reason behind my want of a .223 AI. You can't argue with those results. Any idea what kind of barrel life will be expected with that combination?

I might have to think about shifting some things around and see if I can end up with one. Diggler makes an excellent point about the monetary considerations as well. </div></div>

Regarding barrel life, I anticipate similar barrel life to a SAAMI .223. I would be surprised if I couldn't go at least 6k rounds before a noticeable drop off in accuracy, but I really have no idea.

The economy of the round, along with the lack of recoil, is what really sold me on this round. Especially with the higher BC projectiles. The only "downside" is the fact that I have to fireform the brass. I use fireforming as an excuse to run dot drills at the 100 yard line, and have no complaints.

I like the 223ai enough that I had another one built for my deer rifle.

 

[SScott]

Re: 223ai vs 308

Tag for interesting data.
SScott

 

[bward]

Re: 223ai vs 308

Is it legal to shoot a deer with a 22 based round in Texas? Has to be larger than 22 here in OK?

 

[JCH]

Re: 223ai vs 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bward</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it legal to shoot a deer with a 22 based round in Texas? Has to be larger than 22 here in OK?</div></div>

Bward, you can use a 22 Centerfire as long as you use a 55gr bullet or bigger. (In Oklahoma)

 

[bward]

Re: 223ai vs 308

You are correct, I'm not sure where I heard that.

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

Yes, it is legal. A simple google search provides this:

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/annual/hunt/means/

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

I wanted to bump this post up with results for my .308. I've made some changes to this rifle since receiving it from Mr. Roscoe at Louisiana Precision Rifles. Specifically, I swapped to an AICS and put my Vortex Razor HD on top. I like the rifle much better in an AICS, and I really like the Razor. I recently took delivery of 2k Sierra 2156 Palma 155's, along with 10lbs of IMR 8208 XBR, to develop an accurate tactical match load.

After running my 223ai (see above posts) in the Shooter's Bash, and having a tough time spotting hits and misses at 800+, I came to the conclusion that I was going to put away all other distractions and focus on my 308. The goal is to get proficient with one rifle, one load, and forget about the rest. I'll be taking the rifle with me to Rifles Only for some trigger time with Jacob and Company to help "get me right".

I've read many, many good things about the new 8208 powder for shorter barrels. I've also read of good results with the new 155 Palma bullets from Sierra. I figured I would give this a go, and here are my results in load development at 100.

Disregard the top row of smaller targets, I was rezeroing a hunting rifle.

As I usually do, I loaded up a series of 5 rounds, starting with 45.0 grains, and finishing with 45.5 grains. At the end of the day, ended up with so/so results along with so/so velocity. Starting on the top left, I averaged 2785 fps. Top middle wasn't any different, top left got me to the mid 2790's. The bottom row was slightly better in velocity, and the last target got me to 2806 average with single digit spreads.

I expected better.

Today, I loaded up another series of test loads, and took them to the range. Much better day today. As you can see the targets started to tighten up as velocity increased. 45.9-46.1 gave me the accuracy I was looking for along with the speed I wanted. 45.9 gave me 2852 average (bottom left target), 46.1 (bottom right target) gave me a single digit spread along with a 5 shot average of 2861 fps. I adjusted my windage left .1 mil on the last two targets...it helped.

All were loaded to jump .010" in a '95 Palma chamber, along with cci 200's.

I am happy with these results, and will continue at 200+ later this week.

 

[223ai]

Re: 223ai vs 308

A little birdie offered that I should jump these bullets a bit more. Rather than .010", I am going to give this another go at .040".

 

[81sfo]

Re: 223ai vs 308

Nice shootin sir. Good work on loading Xbr power and 155s.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: 223ai vs 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After running my 223ai (see above posts) in the Shooter's Bash, and having a tough time spotting hits and misses at 800+ </div></div>

That was the same problem I had here in michigan but from 700 out... The 223 is a little lacking in size to watch impacts