224V in a Shorty Bolt....stupid?

[dms416]

I know most here think the 224V is dumb when you can do 223/223AI in a bolt gun. While I have the means to reload, I absolutely HATE it...at least the work-up part. So that pretty much takes the wind out of the hopped up 223's shooting high-bc bullets.

I know the 308 is the darling of shorter barreled builds, but I'm wanting something with significantly less recoil without having to rely on weight or brakes but don't want to take the hit on a barrel burner cartridge. Out here in the cornfields, we live in a half-mile/880y max distance so velocity hit is not a problem. As stated, I don't care much for reloading so a factory ammo option is required.

Would it be worth the hassle of a 224V in an 18.5-20" bolt to try and push 88gr Hornady's or 80 - 85.5 Bergers rather than a 77/75gr factory 223 load if I wanted to push a little distance (again...not looking for 1k+)?

Q: Would I ever double-dip and have a 224V semi-auto?
A: No, I'm pretty much sick of dicking with precision gas-guns large or small...so I would not be taking advantage of that initially.

Q: What's the purpose of said rifle?
A: Maybe light coyote gun for some night/NV stuff and an intermediary between my 5.56 carbines and my big, ol 6.5 Accuracy Interational rig

I've looked heavily at 6br (even though the factory stuff is expensive), but the thought of 224 Valk comes to mind.

In both cases, feeding/magazines seem to be the hang up. Would one be favorable over the other if say I just stuck with a BDL type magazine out of a CRF like the Bighorn?

 

[diggler1833]

I still have a soft spot for my .22-250. Don't know if it burns barrels more than the 224V, and depending on what twist you go with can do anything you are particularly asking for.

 

[dms416]

I still have a soft spot for my .22-250. Don't know if it burns barrels more than the 224V, and depending on what twist you go with can do anything you are particularly asking for.

22-250 is a no-go as the factory stuff caps out at what...60gr? No high-BC factory stuff. Were it a dedicated varmint rig....110% would do a 22-250 all day long.

 

[XLR308]

The 224v is definitely going to be much more barrel friendly than a 22-250.
If your going with a 20" barrel you allready know your losing some performance there but there should still be plenty of potential left for the intended purpose you stated.
I have been contemplating getting a spare bolt and barrel and doing the same thing for a while now.

 

[Supersubes]

I don’t think you’d be sacrificing much but some velocity. Do it, and report back.

 

[dms416]

If your going with a 20" barrel you allready know your losing some performance there but there should still be plenty of potential left for the intended purpose you stated.

Yeah, not talking having to be PRS open competitive level numbers.

This fall I've pushed factory BH 77gr out of some 14.5" chrome-line barrels running 2600fps (Hodge's FN barrels run fast apparently) out past 800 and not gone past 10 mils of elevation. I know I'd certainly get better than that out of a 20" 224V bolt gun...I'd hope.

Let's say, I'd hope to get similar efficiency from the 224V as say a 175gr SMK out of a 20" 308 bolt gun out to 800-880y with 1/2 the recoil and maybe...60% of the barrel life. I don't think that's unreasonable.

I don’t think you’d be sacrificing much but some velocity. Do it, and report back.

OK, so efficiency aside...

How do we address the feeding/action?

 

[XLR308]

Yeah, not talking having to be PRS open competitive level numbers.

This fall I've pushed factory BH 77gr out of some 14.5" chrome-line barrels running 2600fps (Hodge's FN barrels run fast apparently) out past 800 and not gone past 10 mils of elevation. I know I'd certainly get better than that out of a 20" 224V bolt gun...I'd hope.

Let's say, I'd hope to get similar efficiency from the 224V as say a 175gr SMK out of a 20" 308 bolt gun out to 800-880y with 1/2 the recoil and maybe...60% of the barrel life. I don't think that's unreasonable.




OK, so efficiency aside...

How do we address the feeding/action?

I think you may be pleasantly surprised on the barrel life of the 224V if your not hot loading it or running it in a semi till the barrel is hot a as branding iron.

 

[dms416]

I think you may be pleasantly surprised on the barrel life of the 224V if your not hot loading it or running it in a semi till the barrel is hot a as branding iron.

Yeah that's one thing I like about the smaller cartridge vs the 22-250 or 22 Creed (or 6BR over 243 if 6mm).
I don't like pushing cartridge limits for marginal gains; I find something decent and stay put. If I need more ass, I'll run the 6.5CM.

 

[hseII]

22-250 is a no-go as the factory stuff caps out at what...60gr? No high-BC factory stuff. Were it a dedicated varmint rig....110% would do a 22-250 all day long.

I would email or call

1. https://hsmammunition.com/trophy-gold/
2. https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/rifle-ammo
3. http://www.black-hills.com/contact-us/
4. https://bergerbullets.com/
And ask them what would be needed to provide a Berger Hybrid 22-250 offering if I did not want to load my own. Berger’s new 85.5 looks to be a bad motorscooter.

 

[dms416]

By my numbers, 88gr ELDM @2600 looks pretty darn close to what I'm getting out of my 175SMK in a 20" barrel.

2700fps would be just fine by me with an 88gr or 85.5.

 

[Bradu]

I would email or call

1. https://hsmammunition.com/trophy-gold/
2. https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/rifle-ammo
3. http://www.black-hills.com/contact-us/
4. https://bergerbullets.com/
And ask them what would be needed to provide a Berger Hybrid 22-250 offering if I did not want to load my own. Berger’s new 85.5 looks to be a bad motorscooter.

Copper creek ammo is a good choice for something like that.

 

[dms416]

Yeah...did that whole semi-custom reload thing with one of those companies with my 6.5CM...
Long story short, it's why I have a press now.

 

[hseII]

Yeah...did that whole semi-custom reload thing with one of those companies with my 6.5CM...
Long story short, it's why I have a press now.

When you have time please share the long story.

I reload but I think there would be value in that discussion with others who are on the fence.

I would expect Berger to start supplying some sort of loading with that new Hybrid.

 

[b6graham]

I wonder if Hornady is going to release 22 Creedmoor factory ammo in the near future.....? Maybe that would be better suited to a shorty.

I wouldnt hold my breath

 

[b6graham]

When you have time please share the long story.

I reload but I think there would be value in that discussion with others who are on the fence.

I would expect Berger to start supplying some sort of loading with that new Hybrid.

Berger FTR loads with the 85.5 with the issf reamer or similar

 

[Bradu]

When you have time please share the long story.

I reload but I think there would be value in that discussion with others who are on the fence.

I would expect Berger to start supplying some sort of loading with that new Hybrid.

I haven't used copper creek other than for modified cases since I got back into reloading but I know several people that have. They were all happy with the performance of the ammo and the customer service of them. They aren't like a couple places that offered shit delivery times or no delivery at all.

 

[b6graham]

What do you know? (Not meant sarcastically or derisively)

Not saying it wouldnt be nice and it's super simple for them to make the brass and use the 88s. I just dont know if it has enough market. Maybe the varmint guys are all moving over from 22250 not sure

 

[Long Range 338]

In both cases, feeding/magazines seem to be the hang up. Would one be favorable over the other if say I just stuck with a BDL type magazine out of a CRF like the Bighorn?

Where are you coming up with the feeding issues? The only thing I've heard of is problems using the magpul mags, fixed issue by using metal mags.

@lowlight is running a Bighorn Origin in 224 Valkyrie with stellar results. Perhaps he can comment on the best setup...

 

[dms416]

Where are you coming up with the feeding issues? The only thing I've heard of is problems using the magpul mags, fixed issue by using metal mags.

@lowlight is running a Bighorn Origin in 224 Valkyrie with stellar results. Perhaps he can comment on the best setup...

Short/stubby rounds have historically had trouble feeding from short/308 length platforms, no? I've seen some purpose-built MDT? mags and some guys tweaking AI mags and using BR conversion kits...a few hogged out 223 AICS.

 

[dms416]

When you have time please share the long story.

Doing work-up on somebody else's schedule is time consuming and shipping to and from gets expensive. We also had some issues shipping a few times despite the shipper not heeding my concerns. After eating double shipping costs a few times, I got tired of it and reloading can't be that much more of a headache. Found out it's just a different kind of headache...at least now I'm responsible for my own misery.

It really didn't save me time; it didn't save me any frustration and it certainly didn't save me any money. So there ya go.

If I knew enough to know EXACTLY what recipe I wanted but didn't have the time AND I could get it done in a timely manner, that'd be different.

 

[Long Range 338]

Short/stubby rounds have historically had trouble feeding from short/308 length platforms, no? I've seen some purpose-built MDT? mags and some guys tweaking AI mags and using BR conversion kits...a few hogged out 223 AICS.

I’m not sure about other rounds, but I‘ve been following the Valkyrie threads as it interests me. As far as I know the polymer mags have been a complete PITA and failure as noted by Reubenski. If you run a mag built for 6.8SPC or 224 Valkyrie it appears to fix the issue. I’ve got a Valkyrie in an AR and it feeds fine but I bought 6.8 mags before I even attempted to shoot it. I’m not sure what mags you would use for a bolt gun, I think Frank spelled it out for his bolt gun but I can’t seem to find the thread.

 

[dms416]

I’m not sure what mags you would use for a bolt gun

So...yeah; that's the issue.

In the vid looks like Frank's MHSA build uses metal mags.

 

[Bender]

A short Valkyrie sounds amazing!

The Valkyrie is exactly the thing I was looking for two years ago. It has waaaaay better barrel life than a 22-250 or .22 Creedmoor. Cheap to reload and tons of fun!

 

[Bradu]

Doing work-up on somebody else's schedule is time consuming and shipping to and from gets expensive. We also had some issues shipping a few times despite the shipper not heeding my concerns. After eating double shipping costs a few times, I got tired of it and reloading can't be that much more of a headache. Found out it's just a different kind of headache...at least now I'm responsible for my own misery.

It really didn't save me time; it didn't save me any frustration and it certainly didn't save me any money. So there ya go.

If I knew enough to know EXACTLY what recipe I wanted but didn't have the time AND I could get it done in a timely manner, that'd be different.

Pretty sure I know what company you are talking about. Pretty common shit show of an experience if it is. Copper creek doesn't reload your fired brass so no shipping back and forth. A lot of ammo at copper creek is ready to ship as well.

 

[Romeo458]

This sounds like a job for 6.5 Grendel.

 

[dms416]

This sounds like a job for 6.5 Grendel.

I read this in the super hero intro voice but thought this:

(If I were famous, posting this would be career suicide. But we all laughed at that shit in the 90's)

I kid...I kid

In all seriousness though, I HAD considered that because the 6.5G does indeed check a few of my boxes. There's even Lapua brass for it! The Federal GMM 130gr Berger is intriguing, but I'm guessing it's just way too much of a velocity dip. Were terminal effect out of a small-frame AR the name of the game, this'd be my answer....or a super light brush gun like that Howa 0-600.

It seems that every time I look at the 6.5G, it always leads to looking at 6mm Grendel wildcats which makes me wonder...why not just 6BR at that point?

 

[Romeo458]

224 VALKYRIE- Effect of barrel length on velocity

224 VALKYRIE- Effect of barrel length on velocity New cartridges come and go. Some catch on while others fade into obscurity. As a gun writer I try to predict which ones will take off. Like anyt…

rifleshooter.com

http://www.alexanderarms.com/images/pdfs/grendel_ballistics.pdf

Grendel doesn't loose much performance with shorter barrels, and still has more energy and better against wind than the Valkyrie. I have both, I'm still getting to know the 224 Valkyrie though so I am bias to the 6.5.

 

[XLR308]

224 VALKYRIE- Effect of barrel length on velocity

224 VALKYRIE- Effect of barrel length on velocity New cartridges come and go. Some catch on while others fade into obscurity. As a gun writer I try to predict which ones will take off. Like anyt…

rifleshooter.com

http://www.alexanderarms.com/images/pdfs/grendel_ballistics.pdf

Grendel doesn't loose much performance with shorter barrels, and still has more energy and better against wind than the Valkyrie. I have both, I'm still getting to know the 224 Valkyrie though so I am bias to the 6.5.

That's because it doesn't have much performance to lose to begin with, it's kind of in the same boat as the 68spc and 762x39 they all should have started life as a 6mm for thier case size.

 

[dms416]

Ugh...you're gonna make me do unnecessary math with those 600y zero spreadsheets.

I've seen the rifleshooter barrel stuff. That's what gives me hope that a 80-85.5 grainer can do 2700 out of a 20" bolt

 

[padom]

I've been running long 88eld/90smk rounds out of both an Origin and TL3 with MDT's 224V polymer mags without a single issue for what a year now. Feeda like butter 100%.

1 problem. They only hold 8rd... not an issue for me but probably is for some... they are MDT's 223 polymer mags CNC machined for 224V specifically....when MDT sent me one to test before they were released they said they wanted to see the demand for them based off how well they sell. To make a new 224V dedicated mag they have about $50,000 in up front costs to do that.

I'll have to check and see if they sold like they were hoping and if a dedicated 223V larger capacity mag is now in the works since it's been a while.

I also have they 6BR metal mag that runs good and holds 13rd but needed some feed lip bending to hold the skinnier 224V case...

 

[Bradu]

Ugh...you're gonna make me do unnecessary math with those 600y zero spreadsheets.

I've seen the rifleshooter barrel stuff. That's what gives me hope that a 80-85.5 grainer can do 2700 out of a 20" bolt

I don't have a valkyrie but my 223 ai with an 80 grain amax is about 2830 fps out of a 16.5" barrel with 26.3 grains of varget. It is perfect for out to 700, only downside is lack of report and hard to see impacts at times on the target at the one range I shoot at. I was under 2500 fps on my fire forming loads and still made 500 very easy.

 

[b6graham]

Are you aware they are making 22 Creed Hornady brass and dies? I take that as a sign that they recognize 22 Creed as having a market beyond wildcatters

Ignorant question maybe but what's the ratio of brass to ammo for hornady?

 

[Long Range 338]

Ok here's the other thread

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/mhsa-valkyrie-bolt-action-rifle.6945446/

 

[mdonnr]

I ran the modified MDT 223 polymer from CHPWS and used the mag extensions from MK Machining to get the 10 rds. Only issue I had with feeding was if I had too much pressure on the the front of the mag. The rounds would be too low and miss the feed ramp. Ran that setup hard at a NRL match, only issue was the guy behind the gun.

224 Valkyrie MDT 8 round mag - C&H Precision Weapons

224 Valkyrie MDT 8 round mag is now available at C&H precision weapon. We take OEM MDT 223 mags and custom modify the internals to work with the new Federal Premium 224 Valkyrie ammunition. This is a short term solution until steel AICS mags have tested and are ready for release.

www.chpws.com

I am tempted to cut the rifle down to 16”-18” and switch the scope out. Short truck gun

 

[mdonnr]

In another rifle, I worked up a good load with the 88 ELD @ 2820 fps with a 24” barrel. FYI

 

[padom]

I ran the modified MDT 223 polymer from CHPWS and used the mag extensions from MK Machining to get the 10 rds. Only issue I had with feeding was if I had too much pressure on the the front of the mag. The rounds would be too low and miss the feed ramp. Ran that setup hard at a NRL match, only issue was the guy behind the gun.

224 Valkyrie MDT 8 round mag - C&H Precision Weapons

224 Valkyrie MDT 8 round mag is now available at C&H precision weapon. We take OEM MDT 223 mags and custom modify the internals to work with the new Federal Premium 224 Valkyrie ammunition. This is a short term solution until steel AICS mags have tested and are ready for release.

www.chpws.com

I am tempted to cut the rifle down to 16”-18” and switch the scope out. Short truck gun


View attachment 7181028

Can you link to the mag extension you have on this mag? Thx

 

[fdkay]

Nothing wrong with your idea.
I built a .22 nosler on a bolt gun. I chose that for one very specific reason, I had an action with a .223 bolt face.
I didn't want the cost of having the bolt face opened up and doing the conversion to the m16 style extractor.
I can get 3100 with the 80 grain custom competition with 31 grains of RL15 out of a 22" barrel.
I've been considering trying the 70 grain RDF bullets, I believe they are factory loaded, but .22 nosler is on its last legs and the .224 looks like it might have some staying power.
I use a modified accurate mag.
I really wish Howa would have built a 6.8 on their mini-action, would have make a really nice platform for the .224.

 

[mdonnr]

Can you link to the mag extension you have on this mag? Thx

Carbon Fiber Nylon SA Polymer MDT 223 +5 Extension – MK Machining

Carbon Fiber Nylon SA Polymer MDT 223 +5 Extension Add five rounds of capacity to your SA Polymer MDT 223 magazine with the MK Machining Carbon Fiber Nylon SA Polymer MDT 223 +5 extension. Redesigned shape for increased strength and durability. Now printed from our tough Carbon Fiber Nylon...

mkmachining.com

 

[padom]

thx

 

[D_Lamz]

I use old Alpha 308 mags. I believe Frank does as well.