I was thinking the other day why does no one make ballistic tipped .22lr ammo? It may be a dumb question but I would pay for it!
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22lr Ammo question?
- Thread starter BenY 2013
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Re: 22lr Ammo question?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe because nobody shoots .22LR at the long range or velocity where having a ballistic tip would make a difference. </div></div>
Nobody? Really? I can see your point on velocity. But range? I shoot my 22lr to 400 yards on a regular basis. To answer the OP's question, I would guess that it is a cost issue.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe because nobody shoots .22LR at the long range or velocity where having a ballistic tip would make a difference. </div></div>
Nobody? Really? I can see your point on velocity. But range? I shoot my 22lr to 400 yards on a regular basis. To answer the OP's question, I would guess that it is a cost issue.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe because nobody shoots .22LR at the long range or velocity where having a ballistic tip would make a difference. </div></div>
Nobody? Really? I can see your point on velocity. But range? I shoot my 22lr to 400 yards on a regular basis. To answer the OP's question, I would guess that it is a cost issue. </div></div>
What kind of accuracy are you getting at 400 from a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe because nobody shoots .22LR at the long range or velocity where having a ballistic tip would make a difference. </div></div>
Nobody? Really? I can see your point on velocity. But range? I shoot my 22lr to 400 yards on a regular basis. To answer the OP's question, I would guess that it is a cost issue. </div></div>
What kind of accuracy are you getting at 400 from a 22lr?
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
Ballistic Tip .22LR's? Is that anything like dosing your pet mouse on steroids?
Sounds kinds pricey; and when you're all done, just what have you accomplished anyway?
For me, the whole point of the .22LR is its combination of reliable performace and such an affordable cost.
This one, I suspect they looked at and said, Naaahhh...
Greg
Ballistic Tip .22LR's? Is that anything like dosing your pet mouse on steroids?
Sounds kinds pricey; and when you're all done, just what have you accomplished anyway?
For me, the whole point of the .22LR is its combination of reliable performace and such an affordable cost.
This one, I suspect they looked at and said, Naaahhh...
Greg
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ballistic Tip .22LR's? Is that anything like dosing your pet mouse on steroids?
Sounds kinds pricey; and when you're all done, just what have you accomplished anyway?
For me, the whole point of the .22LR is its combination of reliable performace and such an affordable cost.
This one, I suspect they looked at and said, Naaahhh...
Greg</div></div>
Agreed. What value does a heeled spitzer or ballistic tip bullet have in real world applications? Hyper-velocity hunting round? Interesting, I admit, but likely cost prohibitive especially considering it would be a niche market.
and yeah, eracer? There are probably a hundred guys on this forum (including myself) that shoot .22 LR @ >200 yards with great regularity. I'm holding ~2.25 MOA at that range and there are guys that do much better. As more people learn about "long range" .22 LR shooting, the market for this type of creature might open up. Check out the rimfire comp. thread sometime...you might just have to try it!
Warning! Highly addictive activity!
-The Kid.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ballistic Tip .22LR's? Is that anything like dosing your pet mouse on steroids?
Sounds kinds pricey; and when you're all done, just what have you accomplished anyway?
For me, the whole point of the .22LR is its combination of reliable performace and such an affordable cost.
This one, I suspect they looked at and said, Naaahhh...
Greg</div></div>
Agreed. What value does a heeled spitzer or ballistic tip bullet have in real world applications? Hyper-velocity hunting round? Interesting, I admit, but likely cost prohibitive especially considering it would be a niche market.
and yeah, eracer? There are probably a hundred guys on this forum (including myself) that shoot .22 LR @ >200 yards with great regularity. I'm holding ~2.25 MOA at that range and there are guys that do much better. As more people learn about "long range" .22 LR shooting, the market for this type of creature might open up. Check out the rimfire comp. thread sometime...you might just have to try it!
-The Kid.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
Ok thanks for the replies, like I said it was probably a dumb question to begin with and I was just curious why no one had any on the market.
Ok thanks for the replies, like I said it was probably a dumb question to begin with and I was just curious why no one had any on the market.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HathcockWannebe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ballistic Tip .22LR's? Is that anything like dosing your pet mouse on steroids?
Sounds kinds pricey; and when you're all done, just what have you accomplished anyway?
For me, the whole point of the .22LR is its combination of reliable performace and such an affordable cost.
This one, I suspect they looked at and said, Naaahhh...
Greg</div></div>
Agreed. What value does a heeled spitzer or ballistic tip bullet have in real world applications? Hyper-velocity hunting round? Interesting, I admit, but likely cost prohibitive especially considering it would be a niche market.
and yeah, eracer? There are probably a hundred guys on this forum (including myself) that shoot .22 LR @ >200 yards with great regularity. I'm holding ~2.25 MOA at that range and there are guys that do much better. As more people learn about "long range" .22 LR shooting, the market for this type of creature might open up. Check out the rimfire comp. thread sometime...you might just have to try it!
Warning! Highly addictive activity!
-The Kid. </div></div>So (honest question) do you think ballistic tip .22 LR bullets would improve your 200yd.+ accuracy?
I wasn't knocking long-range .22LR shooting - far from it. I was suggesting that the velocity of a .22 LR bullet at long ranges negates any benefit a ballistic tip might offer. After all, a .22 LR bullet is subsonic well before 400 yards, and I highly doubt that a ballistic tip bullet would expand any more than a roundnose bullet. As for accuracy...well, that bullet is probably not very stable at that range.
But I could certainly be wrong.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HathcockWannebe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ballistic Tip .22LR's? Is that anything like dosing your pet mouse on steroids?
Sounds kinds pricey; and when you're all done, just what have you accomplished anyway?
For me, the whole point of the .22LR is its combination of reliable performace and such an affordable cost.
This one, I suspect they looked at and said, Naaahhh...
Greg</div></div>
Agreed. What value does a heeled spitzer or ballistic tip bullet have in real world applications? Hyper-velocity hunting round? Interesting, I admit, but likely cost prohibitive especially considering it would be a niche market.
and yeah, eracer? There are probably a hundred guys on this forum (including myself) that shoot .22 LR @ >200 yards with great regularity. I'm holding ~2.25 MOA at that range and there are guys that do much better. As more people learn about "long range" .22 LR shooting, the market for this type of creature might open up. Check out the rimfire comp. thread sometime...you might just have to try it!
-The Kid. </div></div>So (honest question) do you think ballistic tip .22 LR bullets would improve your 200yd.+ accuracy?
I wasn't knocking long-range .22LR shooting - far from it. I was suggesting that the velocity of a .22 LR bullet at long ranges negates any benefit a ballistic tip might offer. After all, a .22 LR bullet is subsonic well before 400 yards, and I highly doubt that a ballistic tip bullet would expand any more than a roundnose bullet. As for accuracy...well, that bullet is probably not very stable at that range.
But I could certainly be wrong.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
Eracer, excellent question. Short answer: probably not. For actual long range shooting, the current bullets may well be the best available for the velocity available. Since even the current fastest production .22 LR loading (Aguila SuperMax; 30g HP @ 1750 fps?) is running subsonic at about 125 (JBM won't open for me or I'd verify that), it is doubtful that the velocity available even for an ultra-light .22 LR ballistic tip would be enough to make it a superior long range hunting bullet.
The possible practical application could be in turning the .22 LR into a medium range whiz-bang along the lines of a .17 M2 by pushing ulta-light, ballistic tip bullets @ hyper-velocities. I'd be curious to see what a ~22 grain ballistic tip would do at ~2000 fps.
Might make an excellent 125 yard "point and click" small varmint killer! Just dreaming...but, it almost seems feasible?
-The Kid.
Eracer, excellent question. Short answer: probably not. For actual long range shooting, the current bullets may well be the best available for the velocity available. Since even the current fastest production .22 LR loading (Aguila SuperMax; 30g HP @ 1750 fps?) is running subsonic at about 125 (JBM won't open for me or I'd verify that), it is doubtful that the velocity available even for an ultra-light .22 LR ballistic tip would be enough to make it a superior long range hunting bullet.
The possible practical application could be in turning the .22 LR into a medium range whiz-bang along the lines of a .17 M2 by pushing ulta-light, ballistic tip bullets @ hyper-velocities. I'd be curious to see what a ~22 grain ballistic tip would do at ~2000 fps.
-The Kid.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
22LR uses a swage lead, outside lubricated, and heeled bullet. This design is not conducive to any jacketed projectile. Likewise, your bore dimensions are for a soft lead, heeled bullet. I am not sure that a jacketed projectile would increase accuracy over the match ammo currently available.
22LR uses a swage lead, outside lubricated, and heeled bullet. This design is not conducive to any jacketed projectile. Likewise, your bore dimensions are for a soft lead, heeled bullet. I am not sure that a jacketed projectile would increase accuracy over the match ammo currently available.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
Both answers make sense.
My view is that for what you seek, a 22 centerfire is probably a long standing and more effective answer.
I load for .222 Rem and .223 Rem, and occasionally address the R/F vs C/F issue from the opposite direction; where folks are looking for a C/F 22 Subsonic. Yes, you could build one, but honestly, everything they might want to do is pretty much accomplished by the ubiquitous 22 R/F.
Seen in that broader sense, wouldn't the opposite be equally true? I think it is.
Greg
Both answers make sense.
My view is that for what you seek, a 22 centerfire is probably a long standing and more effective answer.
I load for .222 Rem and .223 Rem, and occasionally address the R/F vs C/F issue from the opposite direction; where folks are looking for a C/F 22 Subsonic. Yes, you could build one, but honestly, everything they might want to do is pretty much accomplished by the ubiquitous 22 R/F.
Seen in that broader sense, wouldn't the opposite be equally true? I think it is.
Greg
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: n64atlas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because a .22 is a rimfire, a pointed bullet can set off a round in the many tube feed rifles out there. Too mant idiots would try to use these in their tube feed rifles. Lawyers would have a field day</div></div>
.17 HMR/M2 are also rimfire?
Increased risk with .22 LR because...?
How would the fact that it's a rimfire increase the chance of a round going off in the tube? Guess I'd be one of those idiots, because I really don't understand how it would be dangerous to have the a pointed bullet pushing into the center of a rimfire cartridge. Enlighten me?
Hope the idiots that bought Henry .17 HMR lever guns didn't hurt themselves loading that tube with live rounds.
Sorry, not trying to be a wise guy...I just don't understand.
-The Kid.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: n64atlas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because a .22 is a rimfire, a pointed bullet can set off a round in the many tube feed rifles out there. Too mant idiots would try to use these in their tube feed rifles. Lawyers would have a field day</div></div>
.17 HMR/M2 are also rimfire?
Increased risk with .22 LR because...?
How would the fact that it's a rimfire increase the chance of a round going off in the tube? Guess I'd be one of those idiots, because I really don't understand how it would be dangerous to have the a pointed bullet pushing into the center of a rimfire cartridge. Enlighten me?
Hope the idiots that bought Henry .17 HMR lever guns didn't hurt themselves loading that tube with live rounds.
Sorry, not trying to be a wise guy...I just don't understand.-The Kid.
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longguntoter
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Re: 22lr Ammo question?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe because nobody shoots .22LR at the long range or velocity where having a ballistic tip would make a difference. </div></div>
Nobody? Really? I can see your point on velocity. But range? I shoot my 22lr to 400 yards on a regular basis. To answer the OP's question, I would guess that it is a cost issue. </div></div>Yeah, cost and the fact that a ballistic tip in a non-jacketed bullet seems pointless.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe because nobody shoots .22LR at the long range or velocity where having a ballistic tip would make a difference. </div></div>
Nobody? Really? I can see your point on velocity. But range? I shoot my 22lr to 400 yards on a regular basis. To answer the OP's question, I would guess that it is a cost issue. </div></div>Yeah, cost and the fact that a ballistic tip in a non-jacketed bullet seems pointless.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
<span style="font-weight: bold">400 yds. with a .22LR?</span> Not to mention the ballistic tip in .22lr. This is all I have to say .....
<span style="font-weight: bold">400 yds. with a .22LR?</span> Not to mention the ballistic tip in .22lr. This is all I have to say .....
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
400 yards with a .22LR has been done more often by more people than you would think, Rooster. Not easy, but doable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHI4C9BIdj8&feature=related
read some more of this section of The Hide
Or, search here for Long Range .22 results here.
400 yards with a .22LR has been done more often by more people than you would think, Rooster. Not easy, but doable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHI4C9BIdj8&feature=related
read some more of this section of The Hide
Or, search here for Long Range .22 results here.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
i shoot my 22lr out to 400 yds aswell. i run subsonics as most folks who shoot long range with a 22 do. subsonic ballistic tips are kind of opisites if that makes sence
i shoot my 22lr out to 400 yds aswell. i run subsonics as most folks who shoot long range with a 22 do. subsonic ballistic tips are kind of opisites if that makes sence
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
There is a few that shoot a 22 at long distance. At the present shooting GEMTEC's 22 ammo and have never been more pleased. http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewcategories.asp
They have a good product and costs a little more than standard
22's but its a choice as to what anyone does.....
There is a few that shoot a 22 at long distance. At the present shooting GEMTEC's 22 ammo and have never been more pleased. http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewcategories.asp
They have a good product and costs a little more than standard
22's but its a choice as to what anyone does.....
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
To those who do shoot the .22 out to longer distances what brand ammo and what type do you shoot? Thank you very much!
To those who do shoot the .22 out to longer distances what brand ammo and what type do you shoot? Thank you very much!
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HathcockWannebe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: n64atlas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because a .22 is a rimfire, a pointed bullet can set off a round in the many tube feed rifles out there. Too mant idiots would try to use these in their tube feed rifles. Lawyers would have a field day</div></div>
.17 HMR/M2 are also rimfire?
Increased risk with .22 LR because...?
How would the fact that it's a rimfire increase the chance of a round going off in the tube? Guess I'd be one of those idiots, because I really don't understand how it would be dangerous to have the a pointed bullet pushing into the center of a rimfire cartridge. Enlighten me?
Hope the idiots that bought Henry .17 HMR lever guns didn't hurt themselves loading that tube with live rounds.Sorry, not trying to be a wise guy...I just don't understand.
-The Kid.
</div></div>
Yeah...plus rimfires strike the outside of the rim where the priming compound is, not the middle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HathcockWannebe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: n64atlas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because a .22 is a rimfire, a pointed bullet can set off a round in the many tube feed rifles out there. Too mant idiots would try to use these in their tube feed rifles. Lawyers would have a field day</div></div>
.17 HMR/M2 are also rimfire?
Increased risk with .22 LR because...?
How would the fact that it's a rimfire increase the chance of a round going off in the tube? Guess I'd be one of those idiots, because I really don't understand how it would be dangerous to have the a pointed bullet pushing into the center of a rimfire cartridge. Enlighten me?
Hope the idiots that bought Henry .17 HMR lever guns didn't hurt themselves loading that tube with live rounds.
Sorry, not trying to be a wise guy...I just don't understand.-The Kid.
</div></div>
Yeah...plus rimfires strike the outside of the rim where the priming compound is, not the middle.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
SK Jagd Standard Plus out of a Savage Mark II FVT. I don't have regular access to more than 200yds right now, though.
SK Jagd Standard Plus out of a Savage Mark II FVT. I don't have regular access to more than 200yds right now, though.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
Here's my thinking.
I have done, and occasionally still do, the extreme distances with the .22LR. I do it much less now. No special reason either way.
I had considered trying to 'optimize' the process, then I stopped and gave it some additional thought.
The main, best advantage of the .22LR is that it reaches its limits closer to the shooter than most other convenient rifle chamberings. The shooter can use it to study and master marksmanship at its longer distance limits without actually having to find vast expanses within which to do it.
It's those readily exploited limits which make it so useful. 'Improving' the cartridge's performance can actually end up being counterproductive. If I want to 'reach out and touch' more effectively than I already can with the .22LR, I'm gonna use a centerfire rifle. No point to employing a deliberate handicap in such things.
That's my view.
Greg
Here's my thinking.
I have done, and occasionally still do, the extreme distances with the .22LR. I do it much less now. No special reason either way.
I had considered trying to 'optimize' the process, then I stopped and gave it some additional thought.
The main, best advantage of the .22LR is that it reaches its limits closer to the shooter than most other convenient rifle chamberings. The shooter can use it to study and master marksmanship at its longer distance limits without actually having to find vast expanses within which to do it.
It's those readily exploited limits which make it so useful. 'Improving' the cartridge's performance can actually end up being counterproductive. If I want to 'reach out and touch' more effectively than I already can with the .22LR, I'm gonna use a centerfire rifle. No point to employing a deliberate handicap in such things.
That's my view.
Greg
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
To do any sort of long distance shooting with a .22, I think you need to shoot subsonic anyway; so I really don't think that you would gain any benefit from ballistic tipped ammo.
For any sort of long distance shooting, when it matters, I use Eley black box in a lot number that my rifle likes, at the least. For a more important match, I might splurge on the $18 a box stuff, but for most times, the $10 a box stuff does me just fine. For screwing around, I shoot Wolf Match Target. My local range usually has five or six lots on hand. When I run out, I find another lot that my rifle likes and stock up.
To do any sort of long distance shooting with a .22, I think you need to shoot subsonic anyway; so I really don't think that you would gain any benefit from ballistic tipped ammo.
For any sort of long distance shooting, when it matters, I use Eley black box in a lot number that my rifle likes, at the least. For a more important match, I might splurge on the $18 a box stuff, but for most times, the $10 a box stuff does me just fine. For screwing around, I shoot Wolf Match Target. My local range usually has five or six lots on hand. When I run out, I find another lot that my rifle likes and stock up.
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
the problem is velocity, and keeping it up. a "high velocity" .22 load typically goes transsconic around the 70 yard mark. you just don't have enough powder to really drive it fast enough to make it work past 100 yards. truthfully the bullet design that the .22lr uses works fine for slow super sonic and high subsonic just fine...there is no real reason for a pointy bullet
the problem is velocity, and keeping it up. a "high velocity" .22 load typically goes transsconic around the 70 yard mark. you just don't have enough powder to really drive it fast enough to make it work past 100 yards. truthfully the bullet design that the .22lr uses works fine for slow super sonic and high subsonic just fine...there is no real reason for a pointy bullet
Re: 22lr Ammo question?
the problem is velocity, and keeping it up. a "high velocity" .22 load typically goes transsconic around the 70 yard mark. you just don't have enough powder to really drive it fast enough to make it work past 100 yards. truthfully the bullet design that the .22lr uses works fine for slow super sonic and high subsonic just fine...there is no real reason for a pointy bullet
the problem is velocity, and keeping it up. a "high velocity" .22 load typically goes transsconic around the 70 yard mark. you just don't have enough powder to really drive it fast enough to make it work past 100 yards. truthfully the bullet design that the .22lr uses works fine for slow super sonic and high subsonic just fine...there is no real reason for a pointy bullet
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