.243 questions
- Thread starter Whydah
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I looked at this chart earlier today and according to it it will be stable. But have heard other wise. If a push it with compressed load I can reach 2960 fps. Not sure how folks are getting 3050 with out serious pressure signs
My stock Winchester mod 70 with 1 in 10 shot sub Moa with factory 100gr. But have had the gun since I was first able to hunt in 1982. Thing I may have shot out the barrel. It still gets 1 to 1.5in groups at 100 but opens up at 200
So if its marginally stable you may have issues. Pushing the bullet faster and being at higher altitudes can help. If you are ordering a barrel just get it 1 in 8 as it is proven. If you have the barrel currently a box of bullets isn't too big of a commitment to try out.
And if you’re seeing 100 fps faster than you’re getting, compare your barrel lengths. That’s the main difference I usually see, longer barrels equals more speed for the same charge in almost all centerfire cartridges.
It should be, depending on what you intend to use it for.
A while back I purchased a Winchester 670 in .243 which had a 1 in 10 twist. It was not the most fancy rifle but it was all I could afford at the time. Did my first handloading with a Lee Loader which made me appreciate each and every round that I loaded. Then went with an RCBS.
Got involved in Metallic Silhouette and swapped out the variable scope that was on it for a Weaver T-10. I remember showing up at my first match and boy did I feel like Jethro and Ellie Mae were my next of kin prior to the "up from the ground come a bubbling crude. Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea". Every shooter had a Remington 700 in .308 or 7mm 08 or Winchester 70 as well as some pre 64. They had that 'Varmint barrel' that were blued and some were even made of that elusive material STAINLESS STEEL.
I had driven quite a distance and paid the registration fee so it would be rather hard to back out without firing. When it came my turn to shoot, as luck would have it, I found myself in the middle of the firing line with the more well heeled shooters on both sides of me. They were a great bunch of shooters and though they didn't outwardly show their distain for a lowly 'budget shooter' with a stamped checker stock, I still felt uncomfortable and out of my league.
For the Chickens, Pigs and Turkeys I had loaded Sierra 85 gr. HPBT but was a bit nervous about the Rams at 500 meters so went with Speer 105 gr. SPFB which at the time was the heaviest .243 bullet on the market and used IMR4350 to propel it.
Any Chicken, Pig or Turkey that I hit went down with the Sierra 85 gr. HPBT. As for the Rams they all went down when hit with the Speer 105 gr.
Even had a chance to speak with the target setter who could see from his 'bunker' that the Rams I hit went right over and did not 'wobble' after impact.
They must have still been stable because at a 600 yard 'belly match', that load used on Rams printed straight on and did not 'key hole into the target.
A while back I purchased a Winchester 670 in .243 which had a 1 in 10 twist. It was not the most fancy rifle but it was all I could afford at the time. Did my first handloading with a Lee Loader which made me appreciate each and every round that I loaded. Then went with an RCBS.
Got involved in Metallic Silhouette and swapped out the variable scope that was on it for a Weaver T-10. I remember showing up at my first match and boy did I feel like Jethro and Ellie Mae were my next of kin prior to the "up from the ground come a bubbling crude. Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea". Every shooter had a Remington 700 in .308 or 7mm 08 or Winchester 70 as well as some pre 64. They had that 'Varmint barrel' that were blued and some were even made of that elusive material STAINLESS STEEL.
I had driven quite a distance and paid the registration fee so it would be rather hard to back out without firing. When it came my turn to shoot, as luck would have it, I found myself in the middle of the firing line with the more well heeled shooters on both sides of me. They were a great bunch of shooters and though they didn't outwardly show their distain for a lowly 'budget shooter' with a stamped checker stock, I still felt uncomfortable and out of my league.
For the Chickens, Pigs and Turkeys I had loaded Sierra 85 gr. HPBT but was a bit nervous about the Rams at 500 meters so went with Speer 105 gr. SPFB which at the time was the heaviest .243 bullet on the market and used IMR4350 to propel it.
Any Chicken, Pig or Turkey that I hit went down with the Sierra 85 gr. HPBT. As for the Rams they all went down when hit with the Speer 105 gr.
Even had a chance to speak with the target setter who could see from his 'bunker' that the Rams I hit went right over and did not 'wobble' after impact.
They must have still been stable because at a 600 yard 'belly match', that load used on Rams printed straight on and did not 'key hole into the target.
This is where I was headed. Looked into some forums about the 1 in 8. But was really looking to put a barrel on an older platform. So was looking into new stock rifles with that twist but have not found A manufactured gun with it. Wasn’t really looking forward to forking out 1400 on a build
Not sure what you mean. Bullet stability is worst at the muzzle and in the transsonic-to-subsonic region. The answer to the muzzle problem is twist rate (or less bullet length, which usually means less bullet weight), and the answer to transsonic issues at long range is higher BC or higher MV or both (which usually means stepping up in cartridge).
Ugh, managed to lose my whole write-up explaining my too-brief statement. Starting over:
Two issues, bullet stability (by which we usually mean at the muzzle) and stability at/through the transsonic region.
Bullet Stability
Bullet stability is related to multiple things, but in short more velocity requires more RPM. Think of a frisbee: to huck it down a football field, you gotta spin it pretty hard to prevent wobble, but it takes almost no spin at all to casually toss it across your living room onto the couch. Same thing with bullets, basically. The thing is, velocity drops WAY faster than RPM as it flies, so the bullet actually gets MORE stable as it travels. That's why the Berger and other calculators ask for MV, because that's where the bullet is least stable; that's also why those of us shooting subsonic bullets through suppressors check for keyholing (instability) at very short ranges, basically just far enough away from the muzzle for the powder blast not to affect the paper. Heavier bullets are longer, and longer bullets need more RPM for a given velocity to stay stable; that's why heavier bullets often require faster twists, more RPM at the muzzle. If the Berger calculator says it's good, and there's nothing wrong with your bore or your crown, then you're good.
Transsonic "Stability"
I put that in quotes for this one because no bullet is truly stable through the transsonic region, it's just a matter of "shrugging it off" better or worse. As a bullet moves from supersonic to subsonic as it slows down, it goes through some fairly turbulent changes that inconsistently impact trajectory (i.e., inaccuracy). The transsonic region starts around 1340 fps per Brian Litz, and so you basically want the bullet to get to the target before it slows down to that speed. The two big ways to push the distance out further before hitting transsonic speed is higher MV and higher BC. More MV is just more speed to work with in the first place, more BC means you keep what speed you have for longer. Bullet RPM doesn't have much to do with this; while high RPM can help with the transition, it's generally accepted that you take a big accuracy penalty if pushing into transsonic distances. Now, for the 105 HPBT at 2960 fps MV, you don't hit 1340 fps (transsonic region) until about 1100 yards with my environmentals, which are sea level, "normal" pressures, ~50 degrees F, and 70% relative humidity. So, if you have somewhat less favorable environmentals (colder or much drier air), then you might be pretty borderline right at 1000 yards; if you have more favorable environmentals (higher altitude, warmer air) then you can likely stretch even further by maybe 100 yards, out to 1200-ish.
If you want to take your existing cartridge and be less marginal at 1000 yards, consider switching to a higher BC bullet, such as the Berger 105 or 109. However, the Hornady HPBT line of bullets are pretty great "value" bullets for precision shooting, and the VAST majority of your shots will be less than 1000 yards; if you really want to spend a lot of time and energy and effort on 1000 yards, change bullets or change cartridges altogether.
Hope that does a better job of explaining!
Two issues, bullet stability (by which we usually mean at the muzzle) and stability at/through the transsonic region.
Bullet Stability
Bullet stability is related to multiple things, but in short more velocity requires more RPM. Think of a frisbee: to huck it down a football field, you gotta spin it pretty hard to prevent wobble, but it takes almost no spin at all to casually toss it across your living room onto the couch. Same thing with bullets, basically. The thing is, velocity drops WAY faster than RPM as it flies, so the bullet actually gets MORE stable as it travels. That's why the Berger and other calculators ask for MV, because that's where the bullet is least stable; that's also why those of us shooting subsonic bullets through suppressors check for keyholing (instability) at very short ranges, basically just far enough away from the muzzle for the powder blast not to affect the paper. Heavier bullets are longer, and longer bullets need more RPM for a given velocity to stay stable; that's why heavier bullets often require faster twists, more RPM at the muzzle. If the Berger calculator says it's good, and there's nothing wrong with your bore or your crown, then you're good.
Transsonic "Stability"
I put that in quotes for this one because no bullet is truly stable through the transsonic region, it's just a matter of "shrugging it off" better or worse. As a bullet moves from supersonic to subsonic as it slows down, it goes through some fairly turbulent changes that inconsistently impact trajectory (i.e., inaccuracy). The transsonic region starts around 1340 fps per Brian Litz, and so you basically want the bullet to get to the target before it slows down to that speed. The two big ways to push the distance out further before hitting transsonic speed is higher MV and higher BC. More MV is just more speed to work with in the first place, more BC means you keep what speed you have for longer. Bullet RPM doesn't have much to do with this; while high RPM can help with the transition, it's generally accepted that you take a big accuracy penalty if pushing into transsonic distances. Now, for the 105 HPBT at 2960 fps MV, you don't hit 1340 fps (transsonic region) until about 1100 yards with my environmentals, which are sea level, "normal" pressures, ~50 degrees F, and 70% relative humidity. So, if you have somewhat less favorable environmentals (colder or much drier air), then you might be pretty borderline right at 1000 yards; if you have more favorable environmentals (higher altitude, warmer air) then you can likely stretch even further by maybe 100 yards, out to 1200-ish.
If you want to take your existing cartridge and be less marginal at 1000 yards, consider switching to a higher BC bullet, such as the Berger 105 or 109. However, the Hornady HPBT line of bullets are pretty great "value" bullets for precision shooting, and the VAST majority of your shots will be less than 1000 yards; if you really want to spend a lot of time and energy and effort on 1000 yards, change bullets or change cartridges altogether.
Hope that does a better job of explaining!
I realize that. I have a 6.5 creedmoor that I shoot out to 1440. And looking to push it to 1760 have heard that’s a stretch for it as well but was looking to get the 243 to 1000 and still be able to shoot 100gr for hunting at ethical ranges. Have heard that the 100gr are iffy tho get to 1000 with wind drift and such. So was looking for thoughts and comments on the 105 gr pills and 1 in 9 twist. I appreciate everyone’s comments on the subject
that was an awesome write up. I’m at 8400 feet. Not sure about humidity but we hover around 80 degrees Fahrenheit in the summers. Will spin weather for I the rest when summer comes back around. But with this info. I think the 1 in 9 will do the trick. Thanks for the info
Happy to help. You don't need to depend on anecdotes like "that bullet is iffy at 1000 yards" if you download a ballistic solver. The Hornady 4DOF is free, and while it isn't perfect, it's what I use because it's free, the user interface is solid, and the results are accurate except for aerodynamic jump (basically, at long range you need to tell the program that wind is 0 mph to get your proper dope, then tell it the wind speed and direction to get your wind hold). With the following pieces of info, you can calculate for yourself if a bullet can stay supersonic to a given range:
- Bullet caliber, weight, and BC (the Hornady 4DOF and some other programs use custom BC curves for certain bullets, so I just selected the 105 BTHP and didn't enter a numerical BC, the program calculates all that using Hornady's own data)
- Muzzle velocity
- Twist rate
- Environmentals (temp, humidity, pressure, altitude)
Humidity and pressure can be grabbed off of basically any weather app, including the iPhone Weather app or the free Windy app. Getting the temp off the weather app or off your vehicle's thermometer while you drive to the range is sufficient to calculate the info for an actual shot, but just using estimates at home will tell you if a bullet can make it to XYZ distance before hitting 1340 fps.
Hornady has some great videos on how to put all the info into the 4DOF app, check them out:
I just ordered the hornady 4dof kestrel. Instead of doin the math myself. And down loaded it’s app. But have not used it much as I’m waiting for the kestrel. Looking forward to getting back out the range and putting rounds down range
Sounds like a good plan. One day when you go out to the range, use the 4DOF app and some weather website or app to put the environmental info in, see what the DOPE is at 1k yards. Then run the Kestrel and ask it the same question; it'll probably be a little different that far out, but it'll be mighty close. At distances like 600 yards, though, you'll get basically the exact same answer.
Check it out for yourself, one of the biggest things to learn about ballistic solvers is learning what parameters make big changes and which ones make little to no change. The farther out you go, the more everything starts to matter, but out to maybe 600-800 yards, you'd be surprised how little environmental info changes anything. Sounds like you got a plan, enjoy shooting way out there!
Check it out for yourself, one of the biggest things to learn about ballistic solvers is learning what parameters make big changes and which ones make little to no change. The farther out you go, the more everything starts to matter, but out to maybe 600-800 yards, you'd be surprised how little environmental info changes anything. Sounds like you got a plan, enjoy shooting way out there!
105's hammer all day long at 1000yds.
I shoot them from a 7.5 twist. Regularly stretch 1150 in some matches / ranges.
Shoot with others who run them from an 8 twist.
Look at the top guys and see what they're running to get an idea of what's working at the range. Dig around here, Accurate Shooter and into Bryan Litz's books for some brainfood.
I shoot them from a 7.5 twist. Regularly stretch 1150 in some matches / ranges.
Shoot with others who run them from an 8 twist.
Look at the top guys and see what they're running to get an idea of what's working at the range. Dig around here, Accurate Shooter and into Bryan Litz's books for some brainfood.
I went down a whole 243 rabbit hole a few years back playing with all sorts of bullets in 1:10 and 1:9 twist barrels and had a 1:7 twist for whatever I wanted to shoot. Here's what I found.
If my load couldn't hit a 1.3 or better on the JBM calculator, it wasn't worth messing with. I could find a load in that 1.1-1.3 range that might shoot 1/2 moa out to 600 one day, and then would key hole at 100 another day. https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
I eventually gave up all the testing. I accepted that I didn't need to continue to verify what was already widely known and accepted about bullet stability. I continued to play with the 1:7 twist barrel for a while but what I found in the 243 was that cartridge overall length was always and issue with the 105+ grain bullets and that the case was pretty inefficient for those weight class bullets.
Eventually I quit messing with the project, sold one of the rifles and the 7 twist barrel. I still have the 10 twist 243 and will always have a soft spot for the caliber, but I exclusively shoot 87gr Vmax from it. They've done very well out to 600 yards. My competition rifle is a 7.5 twist 6mm GT. Uses much less powder than 243, needs trimmed a lot less frequently, and is never too long for a magazine.
My recommendation is before you spend money and time on bullets and barrels, play with that JBM calculator. If the load you want to run can't hit 1.3 or better in the SG, don't do it.
If my load couldn't hit a 1.3 or better on the JBM calculator, it wasn't worth messing with. I could find a load in that 1.1-1.3 range that might shoot 1/2 moa out to 600 one day, and then would key hole at 100 another day. https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
I eventually gave up all the testing. I accepted that I didn't need to continue to verify what was already widely known and accepted about bullet stability. I continued to play with the 1:7 twist barrel for a while but what I found in the 243 was that cartridge overall length was always and issue with the 105+ grain bullets and that the case was pretty inefficient for those weight class bullets.
Eventually I quit messing with the project, sold one of the rifles and the 7 twist barrel. I still have the 10 twist 243 and will always have a soft spot for the caliber, but I exclusively shoot 87gr Vmax from it. They've done very well out to 600 yards. My competition rifle is a 7.5 twist 6mm GT. Uses much less powder than 243, needs trimmed a lot less frequently, and is never too long for a magazine.
My recommendation is before you spend money and time on bullets and barrels, play with that JBM calculator. If the load you want to run can't hit 1.3 or better in the SG, don't do it.
I tried 105 weight bullets in a1-9:25 twist .243. It was very erratic. My view is shoot 95’s or rebarrel
i have a 243 browning that had 1-10 i believe. it would handle 105 round nose, but not match bullets.
243 ruger precision handles them just fine…i think that is a smidge faster twist than 1 in 8…. 7&1/2 or something like that.
243 ruger precision handles them just fine…i think that is a smidge faster twist than 1 in 8…. 7&1/2 or something like that.
The RPR's in 243 were a fast twist for sure. 1:7.7 if memory serves me. They went largely unnoticed but the couple guys I knew had them LOVED them
i really like mine, but i dont use it much due to work and where i live. it’s one of those that is going to get rehomed because i am downsizing for an upcoming move.
A .243 can easily put 105s over 3000fps. Maybe if you have a short barrel you would have issues. When the .243 became the match 6mm back in 2004 a lot of people shot them at close to 3150fps. I never pushed mine that hard and kept the 115s at about 3000fps. People shot 115s with 8 twists also. Like you are seeing though not a lot of factory rifles come in faster twists as the .243 is not what people think of when looking long range even though it does it fine.
Are you set on .243? Maybe look at 6 Creed for a factory rifle if you wanted a faster twist in a factory offering.
^^What Rob said.^^
Otherwise, just go to 6 Creedmoor factory.
Oh, and spend a little bit of money to rebarrel that model 70. It would be a shame to hide it in the safe just because the barrel is toast.
There’s a young man here that shoots 95s in a .243 factory rifle to and past 1000 yards very well with no issues. He outshoots many a 6.5 and 6mm shooter with those 95s at those distances. Oh yeah, he’s 11. Unless you are really wanting to use 105s for some reason, I don’t see the need.
Otherwise, just go to 6 Creedmoor factory.
Oh, and spend a little bit of money to rebarrel that model 70. It would be a shame to hide it in the safe just because the barrel is toast.
I didn't read all the responses. I have personal experience from this years ago with a R700 Sendero in .243 Win with 105 hdy match. I tried it since I'm above 4,000 ASL with DA that can go up to about 8,000 on occasion. I was able to shoot really good groups at 100 to 400 yards, after that it started coming undone and spiraling in a corkscrew trajectory. I re-barreled in .243 on 7.75 twist and shot mostly 105 RDFs which were fantastic. The .243 Win has a lot of potential for long range. One of the best parts is that it feeds excellent and brass is fairly easy to come by. The bad, you have to load everything for long range, you can't go grab 100 rounds to shoot a club match like you can with 6CM.
Well if after 40 years this is the first rebarrel then yeah would be a good idea. LOL You can go .243 if you like but just get a 8 twist barrel. It will shoot the heavier bullets and the lighter ones mentioned.
I don’t think there is a factory rifle setup with the correct twist for the high bc bullets. 6 Creed is a no brained though and factory ammo and rifles are plentiful.
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