25-06 131 gr blackjack
- Thread starter Madarcher419
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I’m trying to figure what caliber to go with for my next build. I’m considering a 25-06 with the 131gr I’m kinda leaning towards the Ackley Improved
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It will work in any of the OG .257 cartridges but you will be limited in MV. It has been brought up before but until it's intended brass is readily available it won't take off on the market. I plan on to continue with the second box of 500 for load development in the '06 then rethink about it some more. It wasn't particularly developed with the OG cartridges in mind. As for the '06, it has the same case capacity as the .270 Win. So you sort of have to look at published '06 120 grain data and start there and sort of look at the published .270 Win 130 gr published data. Blackjack should be publishing load data sheets no different than Sierra does. All you have to do is email Sierra and in a couple of days you have the PDF file. Blackjack has load data spread out all over the place because of their FB mentality. By this time they should have data sheets available for all of the readily available .257 brass formatted just like Sierra does.
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I ran the 131s in a 257wby (chambered with the Blackjack reamer) and 7828ssc got up to around 3325fps with a node at 3303. Barrel was a 26" Proof 1-7.5.
If I were going to do it again I would probably go with a short/med action magnum cartridge like the 25SST, 25PRC or their 257blackjack and probably a Bartlein (steel or CFW). If you already have a LA/std BF then run the 25/06 or do something wild like a 25x284.
I practiced with mine out to 800 (12.5 moa) but of course when it came time to hunt I ended up with a 147y shot on a free range Aoudad that didn't even make it 30 yards before collapsing.
If I were going to do it again I would probably go with a short/med action magnum cartridge like the 25SST, 25PRC or their 257blackjack and probably a Bartlein (steel or CFW). If you already have a LA/std BF then run the 25/06 or do something wild like a 25x284.
I practiced with mine out to 800 (12.5 moa) but of course when it came time to hunt I ended up with a 147y shot on a free range Aoudad that didn't even make it 30 yards before collapsing.
Not sure yet- less than 100 rounds through so far-- rig was built as a dedicated hunting rifle so the barrel may never see the end of life.
I’m running a 25-06 with a 26” sendero 1:7 X-Caliber barrel, so far I have shot 150 of the 131 Ace bullets over top of 57.5 grains of retumbo and in my rifle I’m getting 3164 with virgin nosler 25-06 brass.
Weatherby's actually hold pretty good barrel life. The true Weatherby cartridges have really long throats. Like 1/2" or more of freebore. That doesn't bode well for super-tight accuracy, but it allows a lot of speed to be built up before the bullet engages the lands.
While not super accurate (like bench-rest), they do hold hunting accuracy for a long time. There are no lands right in front of the case catching all that super hot plasma.
That said, I could not always keep Wildcat bullets (Blackjack predecessor?) together out of my .257 Wby. Or, Sierras, Hornady's, Bergers and other bullets. The only bullets that stayed together consistently were Noslers. It wasn't the twist/speed rotation issue, I believe, it was the toughness of the jackets. Things have changed in the last fifteen years or so since I bought Wildcats.
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If you are looking to run these as long range competition rounds I would look to more conventional types of cases. The Weatherby won't give you an advantage in super accuracy, just speed. I have seen some shoot in the 1/2" category, but more typically they do as Weatherby projected, somewhere inside 1.5 moa.
If you plan on hunting long-range I would suggest what has been brought up above. The 25-06 with a tight twist barrel is all the power you need. The quality there is the efficiency of the bullet, not the power of the case. If you want to step up or go with a shorter action, the .284 case, RSAUM case, PRC case would all work. It depends on what action you want as to how well those might work.
Guys at black jacket have a shorter reamer for 257 w and they said they had one at 1000 rds going strong shooting them at comps and they wasnt very nice to it but idk i would be happy with 1000 rd barrel life if that was case
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What is your COAL and bullet jump? How is the accuracy? Nice piece, BTW.
I built a 257AI for the blackjacks so curious to see how it measures up. Got brass prep and such to do before I start slinging some powder
I dont have the case measuring tools for the .257 diameter i did the old seat it a little bit then use the bolt to seat to the lands then set my RCBS gold medal seating die to that length then ran it down .015 and that was giving me 5/8" groups at 100 and I was getting sd's around 13fps so im guessing that was on my brass being unfired , im all out of retumbo now so ill have to give it another go with a new powder now and see what i come up with.
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I hesitate to post because there are a lot of conditions on this.
Rifle- Rem 700 .25-06 BDL, stock rifle. A buddy in a different state had the 131's and gave me only 6 to play with. I was going to load with RL26, but I had an old can of 7828... not SSC... so I loaded 54.0 grains and federal primer. These were 5x fired federal cases. Average velocity for six shots was 2950 with es of 15fps. Accuracy not great though about 1" @100 yards. 117 grain match using 4831 usually gets me about .65".
They had to be seated rather deep...
I need to add this was a hot load, flat primers.
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Those are from the Black Jack FB. I have a similar graph for N160 compared to the FB RL26. Except a few good nodes around 2700, 2800, and 2900. No over pressure up to 3025 where I stopped. There is no way I'm going to push a 131 over 3000 in a 25-06. I'm pushing as it is at 2900-2950 with this overbore cartridge. The Ace has been out a couple of years and I don't see much on barrel life. At 500 my lands have been pushed out .013 jammed.
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I know, I made them. But I don’t know why you would not run it over 3kfps. Probably 1/3 of 25 creed barrels can run safely at 3030-3040fps for 3000 rounds. Other slower barrels still run comfortably at 2950-2970. The -06 has over 10 grains more H2O capacity, why wouldn’t you utilize it?
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Because of case volume / bore area makes the 25-06 one of the most wicked overbore. Published reloading data has 100 grains or less bullets with MV over 3100. I pushed 120 grain bullets a little over 3000 and was getting right at 1200 rounds accuracy. After that it became a 1 MOA rifle. I'm suspecting less with a 131-grain bullet. And that is with backing down to mid 2900s. Some published loads have a 120 at about 3100 but most are 2900s and as low as 2800s..
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I'm also rethinking twist rates with what I'm seeing on target out to 600 yards. I'm at 3700'. Of course we are not seeing blow ups but I'm also noticing having to settle on .5 MOA accuracy zeroing give or take .1 MOA.
@damoncali
bisonballistics.com
The Berger and JBM calculators don't go into overstabalizing.
I'm also finding this is not uncommon...
"All three charges shot the first three shots in sub .4”, then the fourth shot of every charge weight was a wide flyer."
I can't help but noticing that the author's published groups at distance were three shot groups unless I'm mistaken.
@damoncali
Bullet Gyroscopic Stability Calculator
Calculate the Gyroscopic stability of a bullet with the Miller approximation.
bisonballistics.com
The Berger and JBM calculators don't go into overstabalizing.
I'm also finding this is not uncommon...
"All three charges shot the first three shots in sub .4”, then the fourth shot of every charge weight was a wide flyer."
I can't help but noticing that the author's published groups at distance were three shot groups unless I'm mistaken.
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I'm also rethinking twist rates with what I'm seeing on target out to 600 yards. I'm at 3700'. Of course we are not seeing blow ups but I'm also noticing having to settle on .5 MOA accuracy zeroing give or take .1 MOA.
@damoncali
Bullet Gyroscopic Stability Calculator
Calculate the Gyroscopic stability of a bullet with the Miller approximation.
The Berger and JBM calculators don't go into overstabalizing.
A quick note on the calculator. I don't know exactly what Berger and JBM do, but I'm guessing its very similar to what is in my calculator. When mine reports "overstability" its just saying that the Sg is higher than it needs to be. In theory (and practice) this means that you could go with a slower twist rate and get slightly better accuracy without running into any stability issues. This is all an approximation (a pretty good one, though), and anecdotally, I would say that my experience is that miller calculators are a hair on the conservative side.
There are more detailed calculations that can be done that do away with the Miller approximations, but it requires detailed bullet geometry, and the numbers don't change much so long as we're talking about normally proportioned rifle bullets.
Just wanted to clarify things. I haven't shot the Blackjack at all, but given it's length and BC, it's not surprising if it takes a little more effort to get it really dialed in. Long skinny bullets are more sensitive to anything that's a little off.
If anyone is interested in getting into the weeds on how length/twist impacts accuracy potential, check out this article:
Jump Sensitivity Factor - A New (Old) Way to Evaluate Bullets
Jump Sensitivity is a way of quanitfying a bullet's accuracy potential
bisonballistics.com
Long story short, there's a reason benchrest shooters tend to use shorter bullets and give up a little BC to get better accuracy.
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Good article, damoncali
Well, after consulting with some knowledgeable people I'm going to not give up. Apparently, some people are going beyond bullet jump off the lands in the 25-06 then I ever considered. I'm going to start with a fresh batch of brass and start working my way back.
I'm an old 25-06 shooter and trying to wrap my head around this particular bullet. In other words, I'm stubborn using old tried and true technics with what was available before the Ace hit the market. This bullet is teaching me more about bullets. It's a .257 bullet. It'll work in the 25-06 at an acceptable rate. I'll get there.
Yesterday, I had backed off to .015 and saw some improvement. I'm going to need to go even further. Maybe even a lot further.
Well, after consulting with some knowledgeable people I'm going to not give up. Apparently, some people are going beyond bullet jump off the lands in the 25-06 then I ever considered. I'm going to start with a fresh batch of brass and start working my way back.
I'm an old 25-06 shooter and trying to wrap my head around this particular bullet. In other words, I'm stubborn using old tried and true technics with what was available before the Ace hit the market. This bullet is teaching me more about bullets. It's a .257 bullet. It'll work in the 25-06 at an acceptable rate. I'll get there.
Yesterday, I had backed off to .015 and saw some improvement. I'm going to need to go even further. Maybe even a lot further.
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Do a fairly coarse test all the way back to .120 jump - every .015 or so, and then fine tune from the best spot. A lot of bullets will show good results at unconventionally long jumps. Watch the pressure if you're near max, though - .120 vs 0 makes a little bit of difference.Good article, damoncali
Well, after consulting with some knowledgeable people I'm going to not give up. Apparently, some people are going beyond bullet jump off the lands in the 25-06 then I ever considered. I'm going to start with a fresh batch of brass and start working my way back.
I'm an old 25-06 shooter and trying to wrap my head around this particular bullet. In other words, I'm stubborn using old tried and true technics with what was available before the Ace hit the market. This bullet is teaching me more about bullets. It's a .257 bullet. It'll work in the 25-06 at an acceptable rate. I'll get there.
Yesterday, I had backed off to .015 and saw some improvement. I'm going to need to go even further. Maybe even a lot further.
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I had already tested from .005 to .02 all along. Okay, seated from jammed into the land at .015 increments from .035 to .125 @200 meters...
5 shot groups
.035 .7 moa
.050 .6 moa
.065 1 moa
.080 .4 moa
After that the groups started opening up.
5 shot groups
.035 .7 moa
.050 .6 moa
.065 1 moa
.080 .4 moa
After that the groups started opening up.
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I figured out how to calculate throat angle on a tangent ogive bullet. In case anybody wants to know, lol. The BJ Ace is 1.55 degrees. The Ogive Radius is 9.33 calibers. I think, lol.
I'm working on how to calculate this for a secant bullet but it is a lot more complex.
I'm working on how to calculate this for a secant bullet but it is a lot more complex.
9.3R for a Blackjack 131 Ace doesn't sound right. I'm thinking more in line with Bergers longest. In the range of 12-15R.I figured out how to calculate throat angle on a tangent ogive bullet. In case anybody wants to know, lol. The BJ Ace is 1.55 degrees. The Ogive Radius is 9.33 calibers. I think, lol.
I'm working on how to calculate this for a secant bullet but it is a lot more complex.
The bullet on the right looks like a hybrid. I assume you mean a 115 VLD on the left? 131 Blackjack ACE on the right? The junction looks ever so slightly tangent, while the rest of the nose looks secant. The 115 VLD looks like the ogive is blended very well to the bearing surface which would make it a hybrid as well. JMO.
Added: the hybrid 'look' on the left is going to take jump a lot better than the 'more secant' looking ogive on the right. Again, JMO/JME. I'm usually right about 10% of the time.
But, I'm certainly following what you're doing with the 25-06. I'm going to do something in the near future with a tight twisted .257 cal. rifle.
Added: Getting down to brass tacks, the ogive on the left is clearly shorter than the ogive on the right.
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Yes the one on the left is the 115 VLD secant with a published 14.95 ogive radius. It's Rt/R is .56 with .50 being as secant as you can get.
Try this calculator on the 131 Ace. It also calculates sectional density and Rt/R. All variables are in calibers. You should get a high Rt/R and some interesting stability. Play with the ogive radius and specific gravity variables a little.
www.jbmballistics.com
Try this calculator on the 131 Ace. It also calculates sectional density and Rt/R. All variables are in calibers. You should get a high Rt/R and some interesting stability. Play with the ogive radius and specific gravity variables a little.
JBM - Calculations - Drag/Twist
www.jbmballistics.com
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The secant in the drawing below would have an Rt/R of .50 and the tangent 1.0. Most bullets fall in-between. Remember, the 115 VLD is .56.
Bullet Design–Secant vs. Tangent Ogive « Daily Bulletin
Many shooters and hand-loaders lack a clear understanding of certain elements of bullet design. While most serious shooters know that Secant and Tangent Ogive bullets are different, many of us would have trouble explaining the precise nature of the difference. Thankfully, <a href=http://www.
Also, don't miss the related posts' links at the end of the above short article.
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I looked that up on Hodgdon's website and they show 73 gr. of H1000 and 69 gr. of IMR 7828, which is a slower single base powder. What up Hodgdon????
Added: Their reloading tables are FULL of lawyer loads...
Added: Their reloading tables are FULL of lawyer loads...
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I’ve always found 7828 to be more like H4831 than H1000 but I definitely agree hodgdon load data is weak.I looked that up on Hodgdon's website and they show 73 gr. of H1000 and 69 gr. of IMR 7828, which is a slower single base powder. What up Hodgdon????
Added: Their reloading tables are FULL of lawyer loads...
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That is right F'n on for a hybrid/semi-hybrid bullet.
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Roll on light sandpaper accuracy. So, now I need to measure the dual ogive radius. Or just call it at 9 and 6 ballpark. Explains why I have a wide sub moa seating depth range for such a long skinny bullet. Blackjack needs to come out with a 120 grain version for the masses. By the time my 1:9 prefit is done I'll be out of this bullet. Though Preferred Barrels does make a 7.5 Remage and Xcaliber only does 7. Preferred does make prefits for Tikka, Howa, Savage et al too.
preferredbarrelblanks.com
Hint...
Pre Fit Gun Barrels - Prefit Gun Barrels
American Made Prefit Gun BarrelsPre Fit Gun BarrelsWelcome to Preferred Barrels prefit barrel builder home page! Here you can select your platform and options to build barrels tailored to your specs. Please read the Before You Start section to ensure you understand your responsibility in...
preferredbarrelblanks.com
Hint...
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Roll on light sandpaper accuracy. So, now I need to measure the dual ogive radius. Or just call it at 9 and 6 ballpark. Explains why I have a wide sub moa seating depth range for such a long skinny bullet. Blackjack needs to come out with a 120 grain version for the masses. By the time my 1:9 prefit is done I'll be out of this bullet. Though Preferred Barrels does make a 7.5 Remage and Xcaliber only does 7. Preferred does make prefits for Tikka, Howa, Savage et al too.
Pre Fit Gun Barrels - Prefit Gun Barrels
American Made Prefit Gun BarrelsPre Fit Gun BarrelsWelcome to Preferred Barrels prefit barrel builder home page! Here you can select your platform and options to build barrels tailored to your specs. Please read the Before You Start section to ensure you understand your responsibility in...
Hint...
You guys could ask the source, I have been heavily involved in this thread. While I’m not going to release bullet specs, I will tell you your break down of the bullet’s parts is very good BUT you are WAY off on the radius’s
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Well the company name gives a pretty big clue, although no one would likely think of it without being lead that way. It’s also not easily identified since their are 2 radius’s on the ogive.
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