25 vs 50 yard zero
- Thread starter Vengeful1
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@Dthomas3523 had a good thread on this a while back. Basically if we apply centerfire logic to rimfire then we should go shorter, so that environmentals won’t affect the zero, and also so you don’t have to hold under at typical match distances. I do 25 and it works fine but some advocate 32 or 36. One that really helps in my opinion is to use more shots to confirm your zero. If you do 20 or 25 then you won’t find later that it wanders or is slightly off.
i have a 50M or 54YD zero on my Rimfire PRS rig. Between the group of guys I shoot rimfire PRS with the 50 yds zero is more popular than anything. We typically don't have targets closer than 50 yds in any of our local competitions, and 50yd zero gives me more elevation for ELR type stuff.
I don’t think your zero affects your max elevation, at least not in my setups. Only the base cant.
I like to zero my rimfire rifles at 50 yards. However, I've taken to slightly different approach lately.
To minimize any wind disturbances, I will zero (for windage purposes) at 25 yards. I'll probably get the elevation close at that distance but will not worry about it. I want the POI as close to center as possible with respect to left and right corrections.
BTW, I pick a target with grid lines on it. When stapling the target to the frame, I use a carpenter's level to get the target as level as possible. Even though I have a level on almost all of my target scopes, I still want the gridlines as level as possible.
I place my crosshairs on the intersection of two lines when refining my adjustments. Do an internet search on "grid targets" and all sorts of targets come up.
I'm sure you know all that but I didn't want to make assumptions.
Then I move to the 50 yard target and zero for elevation. So if the wind is blowing a little bit, I will see variances right and left but as long as the elevation is correct, that is what I want.
I cannot always zero the rifle in perfectly calm conditions.
Some will argue that I'm not allowing for spin drift, even on a 22 LR, at the 25 yard range. IMHO, the difference caused by spin drift between 25 and 50 yards is too minimal to worry about.
I would also submit that if you can get your parallax adjusted at a closer distance and can set up at closer than 20 yards you might try that. My scopes won't focus lower than 20 yards. So I keep the distance to 25 yards on windage adjustments.
To minimize any wind disturbances, I will zero (for windage purposes) at 25 yards. I'll probably get the elevation close at that distance but will not worry about it. I want the POI as close to center as possible with respect to left and right corrections.
BTW, I pick a target with grid lines on it. When stapling the target to the frame, I use a carpenter's level to get the target as level as possible. Even though I have a level on almost all of my target scopes, I still want the gridlines as level as possible.
I place my crosshairs on the intersection of two lines when refining my adjustments. Do an internet search on "grid targets" and all sorts of targets come up.
I'm sure you know all that but I didn't want to make assumptions.
Then I move to the 50 yard target and zero for elevation. So if the wind is blowing a little bit, I will see variances right and left but as long as the elevation is correct, that is what I want.
I cannot always zero the rifle in perfectly calm conditions.
Some will argue that I'm not allowing for spin drift, even on a 22 LR, at the 25 yard range. IMHO, the difference caused by spin drift between 25 and 50 yards is too minimal to worry about.
I would also submit that if you can get your parallax adjusted at a closer distance and can set up at closer than 20 yards you might try that. My scopes won't focus lower than 20 yards. So I keep the distance to 25 yards on windage adjustments.
50m gets my vote, shorter zero in theory is better but in practice is harder to get right.
I think some guys were running drop data from 50 and windage from 25 and setting the turrets to zero at mid-30s
dope (ideal distance based on ballistics).
edit: see poster above method
I think some guys were running drop data from 50 and windage from 25 and setting the turrets to zero at mid-30s
dope (ideal distance based on ballistics).
edit: see poster above method
Check out this thread referenced earlier.
www.snipershide.com
Time to start applying centerfire logic to .22 (was just zero, now expanded to other areas)
The subject of zero range keeps coming up for .22lr and the responses vary wildly. Which I find interesting because its almost universally accepted that a 100yd zero should be used for centerfire. The people who believe something like a 200yd zero is acceptable are in the very small minority (as...
www.snipershide.com
I started doing 50y because that is where the board was. I never found too much difficulty with hold under on closer targets - especially when shooting steel. I like the idea of windage checks at 25y especially when you rarely get a wind free shot. Most (read every) match I have been to uses a 50y zero check. I guess for me I would rather see where the pudding is getting made in that moment rather than chase math to figure out if it's the right amount off. Just my 2 cents today.
Otherwise go with Dave. I will because I want to shoot better.
Otherwise go with Dave. I will because I want to shoot better.
The size of the targets relative to the drop at 25 yards with a 50 yard zero will give you the answer
Key to shorter range zero is one shot at each target.
Once your group is centered, start shooting one round for each POA. When you’re zero’d you’ll center punch every time. And not have to worry with interpreting groups at close range.
There's not a big difference between a 25 yard and a 50 yard zero.
Immediately below is what the ballistics calculator shows when the zero is at 25 yards. Next is when the zero is at 50. These have been calculated with a scope sight height of 1.5" above the bore.
Immediately below is what the ballistics calculator shows when the zero is at 25 yards. Next is when the zero is at 50. These have been calculated with a scope sight height of 1.5" above the bore.
That doesn't seem right. With a 25 yard zero, shouldn't the bullet be high at 50, because it has to "climb*" faster to zero at 25? I would also expect it to be low at 25 with a zero at 50, because the bullet "climbs" from muzzle to zero distance.There's not a big difference between a 25 yard and a 50 yard zero.
Immediately below is what the ballistics calculator shows when the zero is at 25 yards. Next is when the zero is at 50. These have been calculated with a scope sight height of 1.5" above the bore.
*from muzzle to scope height.
Always rifle/ammo/scope height dependent, but 25 and 50 on a 22LR is what 35yd and approx 230yd is on a .308 - it is the same elevation. One is the near zero and one is the far zero. Your bullet is on an upwards trajectory at 25 yards and a downwards trajectory at 50 yards. But the elevation you need to dial into your scope is close as dammit for both distances.
Whether or not it seems right is an intuitive response that may not take everything into account.
While a round shot with no elevation, that is with the barrel perfectly level and in line with the zero of the target, the bullet will drop almost 4 inches by the time it gets to 50 yards. The thing is, once the barrel is elevated to account for the drop it doesn't need to rise as high to zero at 50.
Here's the trajectory of the same round. To achieve a zero at 50 yards, it doesn't rise very high above the bore line (less than 2 inches), even less above the line of sight (under 0.5 inches).
Here are ballistics charts produced by another online calculator for the same same round. Immediately below it's zeroed at 25 yards followed by the zero at 50. They seem to confirm the ballistics charts shown in the previous post.
If the rail/ring/mount doesn't change there is absolutely no difference to your effective range. You have a larger angle from zero but it's the same total achievable range.
Well, the info he presented agrees with some of what you said, but not for the reasons you stated.
With a zero at 50 yds, the bullet has already climbed above the "zero distance" when it's at 25 yds, because it crosses the line of sight at 50 yds but also at ~19 yds in the data presented (more like 22 yds on my setup with a higher sight-over-bore of 1.7"). You seem to be envisioning the flight path to intersect the line-of-sight only once, but it hits twice.
This is why these discussions confuse me a bit. You can get the advantages that @Dthomas3523 explains by zeroing at whatever close range also yields a 50-yd zero, or whatever other zero you choose including the ones that just "kiss" the line-of-sight (typically around 32-33 yd zeroes). So, for me, I could do a 22-yd zero, single shot per target to see the center punching described, then still enjoy a nice minute-of-bunny-face trajectory from basically the muzzle out to 60 yds.
That said, I prefer to zero for elevation at 50 yds so I can actually see a reasonable difference between center and POI if it exists. Were I to do that at 22 yds, a 0.1 mil adjustment is 0.08", and that's a lot harder to measure than the 0.18" adjustment that I'd be making at 50 yds. Plus, it's only 0.3 mil hold-under at most (at 33 yds) and my scope, along with most, can easily handle that. Not too worried about environmental effects at 50 yds either, and I'd rather adjust for the average DOPE (ammo variability) than a single shot, and DOPE differences are more prominent at longer ranges.
The minute-of-bunny-face consideration matters to me, FWIW.
I said that you may intuitively believe the chart shown in my first post doesn't make sense to you. I didn't agree with you that you were correct to doubt the chart. Your intuition was misguided.
You are incorrect. My elevation is about 0.1 mil different between 25 and 50 yards.
The whole "argument" about which distance is best to zero at or near zero vs far zero is not going to be the same for everyone. For my PRS setup I have to dial up 0.3 mil at 25 yards with a 50 yard zero. For most guys this is not the case. So the climbing vs falling at different distances are scope height related.
If you look at the trajectory (in my case) at 25 yards a yard plus or minus is 0.1 mil as the bullet is still below line of sight. E.g. 24-26 yards is 0.2 mil. 30-55 yards is quite flat. So if choose to zero somewhere in that range I have a more forgiving zero. E.g. if my zero is 50 yards I can shoot at a 49-53 yard target and still be zero. I often run offsets for my zero as my practice ammo and match ammo may actually have different "zero" so I will enter 50 as my zero distance and input the offset. That will allow for a actual 60 yard zero but because the app uses 50 yards you have less fluctuation due to weather.
Having a zero to far away can be problematic due to weather as guys have already noted.
I pick 50 yards as my zero as most ranges have a 50 and it is the most common zero board available at a match.
A some what side note. I think people worry to much about zero distance. Pick a convenient distance zero and move on. When your at a match and you go check zero dont be adjusting things unless you are way way off. I see guys (and have been the guy) change zero in the morning then part way through the day in frustration because they are missing go check zero again and find they are 0.3 mil high and interestingly in the morning they had adjusted... 0.3 mil up... for me if I check zero at a match I'm more interested in a function check and deal with the cold bore shot if the rifle I'm using has issues with cold bore.
If you look at the trajectory (in my case) at 25 yards a yard plus or minus is 0.1 mil as the bullet is still below line of sight. E.g. 24-26 yards is 0.2 mil. 30-55 yards is quite flat. So if choose to zero somewhere in that range I have a more forgiving zero. E.g. if my zero is 50 yards I can shoot at a 49-53 yard target and still be zero. I often run offsets for my zero as my practice ammo and match ammo may actually have different "zero" so I will enter 50 as my zero distance and input the offset. That will allow for a actual 60 yard zero but because the app uses 50 yards you have less fluctuation due to weather.
Having a zero to far away can be problematic due to weather as guys have already noted.
I pick 50 yards as my zero as most ranges have a 50 and it is the most common zero board available at a match.
A some what side note. I think people worry to much about zero distance. Pick a convenient distance zero and move on. When your at a match and you go check zero dont be adjusting things unless you are way way off. I see guys (and have been the guy) change zero in the morning then part way through the day in frustration because they are missing go check zero again and find they are 0.3 mil high and interestingly in the morning they had adjusted... 0.3 mil up... for me if I check zero at a match I'm more interested in a function check and deal with the cold bore shot if the rifle I'm using has issues with cold bore.
The issue is, past 30-35yds…..depending on wind and such, your zero can be fairly different when changing locations.
I used to zero at 50yds. And shot at two different locations where the typical wind here was at different directions at the zero range for each location.
I was almost always exactly .2 off on wind in my zero from one location to another.
So, while I also subscribe to the “don’t mess with your zero the morning of”……that only applies when your zero at a distance not affected by the environment. Obviously 100yds is this spot for centerfire.
In my testing 25-35yds is the spot for Rimfire where your zero doesn’t change.
This is why I like the idea of zeroing windage up close and elevation farther out, as proposed by @Longshot231
For me 30 yard and 50 is the same zero. Using 30 yard over 50 would have some benefits like you said. Also it helps to account for the small elevation change @ 50 yards due to environmentals through out the year. I have found using the built in app feature for accounting for weather when zero to over calculate changes
If location changes windage then you are zeroing in some wind. I dont change windage at a match as I have never seen windage change due to conditions other then wind. But I havent seen everything in life. I was more thinking of elevation changes.
Now having said all that if your shooting a 100 yard low wind match that can be a great tactic to allow center holds for the most part.
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