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260 vs 260ai
- Thread starter 42769vette
- Start date
Re: 260 vs 260ai
I am starting to wonder if it worth it myself. I was hoping to get away from fire forming brass. I can not find a readily available set, short of custom die right now. I am going to call redding to see what the cost of custom die set might be, but I am rethinking the AI version of this round.
I am starting to wonder if it worth it myself. I was hoping to get away from fire forming brass. I can not find a readily available set, short of custom die right now. I am going to call redding to see what the cost of custom die set might be, but I am rethinking the AI version of this round.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
what do you figure it will add? somwhere in the 200 fps nieborhood?
one reason i didn't go ai on my 260 is if i ever sell it im limiting myself to selling to reloaders. granted most folks that want a rifle with a 29 inch barrel are reloaders but you never know
what do you figure it will add? somwhere in the 200 fps nieborhood?
one reason i didn't go ai on my 260 is if i ever sell it im limiting myself to selling to reloaders. granted most folks that want a rifle with a 29 inch barrel are reloaders but you never know
Re: 260 vs 260ai
I looked at this a while back for a varmint rig, Was going to use a std 260 Lee Collet die and a 243AI body die with the neck reamed out (do the ream myself)
But I ended up going 243AI, fireforming is no chore if you have patience as you can normaly get mint accuracy so just find a load that works (for me it has been easy on all my AI cals) and shoot as you would normaly....when All is fired it is usualy the same load + a couple of grains
Main gain is less brass streach in the hot loads so lots less trimming...well in 22-250AI and 243AI....haven't shot the 6.5x6mmRem AI enough to know yet.
I looked at this a while back for a varmint rig, Was going to use a std 260 Lee Collet die and a 243AI body die with the neck reamed out (do the ream myself)
But I ended up going 243AI, fireforming is no chore if you have patience as you can normaly get mint accuracy so just find a load that works (for me it has been easy on all my AI cals) and shoot as you would normaly....when All is fired it is usualy the same load + a couple of grains
Main gain is less brass streach in the hot loads so lots less trimming...well in 22-250AI and 243AI....haven't shot the 6.5x6mmRem AI enough to know yet.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
427,
With the 260AI you get about 5% more capacity, which will yield about 2.5% more velocity. So at the same pressures you'll get about 75 FPS or so.
The problem with AI's always is, since it has less taper, pressure signs are more muted. That leads them to believe that they are getting a larger velocity increase, when all they are doing is using 70k PSI loads and getting the same pressure signs they got with a 60K non AI case.
But you cannot fool physics. If you increase case capacity by 5%, and get 7 to 10% more velocity; your doing it wrong.....
427,
With the 260AI you get about 5% more capacity, which will yield about 2.5% more velocity. So at the same pressures you'll get about 75 FPS or so.
The problem with AI's always is, since it has less taper, pressure signs are more muted. That leads them to believe that they are getting a larger velocity increase, when all they are doing is using 70k PSI loads and getting the same pressure signs they got with a 60K non AI case.
But you cannot fool physics. If you increase case capacity by 5%, and get 7 to 10% more velocity; your doing it wrong.....
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the 260AI you get about 5% more capacity, which will yield about 2.5% more velocity. So at the same pressures you'll get about 75 FPS or so.
The problem with AI's always is, since it has less taper, pressure signs are more muted. That leads them to believe that they are getting a larger velocity increase, when all they are doing is using 70k PSI loads and getting the same pressure signs they got with a 60K non AI case.
But you cannot fool physics. If you increase case capacity by 5%, and get 7 to 10% more velocity; your doing it wrong..... </div></div>
Well said.
And that goes for all the AI cartridges.
Way over rated in my estimation.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the 260AI you get about 5% more capacity, which will yield about 2.5% more velocity. So at the same pressures you'll get about 75 FPS or so.
The problem with AI's always is, since it has less taper, pressure signs are more muted. That leads them to believe that they are getting a larger velocity increase, when all they are doing is using 70k PSI loads and getting the same pressure signs they got with a 60K non AI case.
But you cannot fool physics. If you increase case capacity by 5%, and get 7 to 10% more velocity; your doing it wrong..... </div></div>
Well said.
And that goes for all the AI cartridges.
Way over rated in my estimation.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And that goes for all the AI cartridges.
Way over rated in my estimation.
</div></div>
the 243AI was introduced not to gain speeds (although you do) but to reduce brass runout...I have 243AI brass that is on its 5th firing and has never been trimmed. To me that is a pretty good thing. The 10% increase is a bonus...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And that goes for all the AI cartridges.
Way over rated in my estimation.
</div></div>
the 243AI was introduced not to gain speeds (although you do) but to reduce brass runout...I have 243AI brass that is on its 5th firing and has never been trimmed. To me that is a pretty good thing. The 10% increase is a bonus...
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have 243AI brass that is on its 5th firing and has never been trimmed. To me that is a pretty good thing. The 10% increase is a bonus...</div></div>
that is awesome, I dont know about the rest of you but I am not a huge fan of brass prep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have 243AI brass that is on its 5th firing and has never been trimmed. To me that is a pretty good thing. The 10% increase is a bonus...</div></div>
that is awesome, I dont know about the rest of you but I am not a huge fan of brass prep
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 243AI was introduced not to gain speeds (although you do) but to reduce brass runout...I have 243AI brass that is on its 5th firing and has never been trimmed.</div></div>
I meant to mention that, and that is the main benefit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 10% increase is a bonus... </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But you cannot fool physics. If you increase case capacity by 5%, and get 7 to 10% more velocity; your doing it wrong.....
</div></div>
Pressure for pressure whatever you load in the AI I can do
in the standard parent case at about 75 fps slower.
If you're getting a 10% increase in speed I dare say you are in the 80k psi range. And that is why the AI is way overrated.
And sure your not getting classic pressure signs, but as was said.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with AI's always is, since it has less taper, pressure signs are more muted.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 243AI was introduced not to gain speeds (although you do) but to reduce brass runout...I have 243AI brass that is on its 5th firing and has never been trimmed.</div></div>
I meant to mention that, and that is the main benefit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 10% increase is a bonus... </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But you cannot fool physics. If you increase case capacity by 5%, and get 7 to 10% more velocity; your doing it wrong.....
</div></div>
Pressure for pressure whatever you load in the AI I can do
in the standard parent case at about 75 fps slower.
If you're getting a 10% increase in speed I dare say you are in the 80k psi range. And that is why the AI is way overrated.
And sure your not getting classic pressure signs, but as was said.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with AI's always is, since it has less taper, pressure signs are more muted.</div></div>
Re: 260 vs 260ai
so you are saying that shoulder taper has nothing to do with pressure? And I would be willing to bet that you can't get a 105 amax 75fps near the 3375fps that I can in my ackley WITHOUT ANY PRESSURE SIGNS?
so you are saying that shoulder taper has nothing to do with pressure? And I would be willing to bet that you can't get a 105 amax 75fps near the 3375fps that I can in my ackley WITHOUT ANY PRESSURE SIGNS?
Re: 260 vs 260ai
BobinNC,
I posted almost the exact same thing on the 223AI, 22-250 New stick thread and really got hammered. There are just some folks who do not want facts getting in the way of "what they know for sure". .223 AI is one of the worst offended. I once had a friend who sent me a 280 AI and it was less than a 280 in vel with the same barrel. Just a gimmic. No shoulder needs to be over 35% and 30 is about right. The only reason I say 35 is that I am a fan of the 6.5x284. I will likely be jumped on again as I have speared the sacred cow. Hard to accept that all those expensive dies, rechambering and fireforming were a waste of time and money.
BobinNC,
I posted almost the exact same thing on the 223AI, 22-250 New stick thread and really got hammered. There are just some folks who do not want facts getting in the way of "what they know for sure". .223 AI is one of the worst offended. I once had a friend who sent me a 280 AI and it was less than a 280 in vel with the same barrel. Just a gimmic. No shoulder needs to be over 35% and 30 is about right. The only reason I say 35 is that I am a fan of the 6.5x284. I will likely be jumped on again as I have speared the sacred cow. Hard to accept that all those expensive dies, rechambering and fireforming were a waste of time and money.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
wow i always thought a ai gave alot more velocity not 75 fps. thanks for setting me straight. im glad i posted this question you learn somthing new every day.
wow i always thought a ai gave alot more velocity not 75 fps. thanks for setting me straight. im glad i posted this question you learn somthing new every day.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
rth1800,
AI'ing or Improving a cartridge case can be worth while. It depends on what you are trying to achieve. For example, take any case with a large taper like: 22 Hornet, 250 Savage, 30-30 Winchester, 300 H&H. Improving them yields tangible benefits, in both case life and velocity.
However, cases with little taper, based on the 308 Win, or 223, will yield some velocity increase (at equal pressures), and better case life overall. Whether that is worth the cost in dies, and fireforming brass, is up to the user, not me.
I suppose that 75 or 100 FPS, is worth it if it turns a marginal cartridge (say @ 1000 yds), and keeps it supersonic, turning into something useful. On the other hand, a standard cartridge like say the 260 Rem. can easily reach 1000 yds. What's another 75-100 FPS really going to do for you?
On the subject of case life, and trimming, yes, an Improved or AI case will lessen the need to trim, and a case may last longer (if you keep pressures sane). But you have to fire form every case, to get there. So you can either spend more time at the range or more time at the loading bench. It's your time either way....
Bob
rth1800,
AI'ing or Improving a cartridge case can be worth while. It depends on what you are trying to achieve. For example, take any case with a large taper like: 22 Hornet, 250 Savage, 30-30 Winchester, 300 H&H. Improving them yields tangible benefits, in both case life and velocity.
However, cases with little taper, based on the 308 Win, or 223, will yield some velocity increase (at equal pressures), and better case life overall. Whether that is worth the cost in dies, and fireforming brass, is up to the user, not me.
I suppose that 75 or 100 FPS, is worth it if it turns a marginal cartridge (say @ 1000 yds), and keeps it supersonic, turning into something useful. On the other hand, a standard cartridge like say the 260 Rem. can easily reach 1000 yds. What's another 75-100 FPS really going to do for you?
On the subject of case life, and trimming, yes, an Improved or AI case will lessen the need to trim, and a case may last longer (if you keep pressures sane). But you have to fire form every case, to get there. So you can either spend more time at the range or more time at the loading bench. It's your time either way....
Bob
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you are saying that shoulder taper has nothing to do with pressure? And I would be willing to bet that you can't get a 105 amax 75fps near the 3375fps that I can in my ackley WITHOUT ANY PRESSURE SIGNS? </div></div>
Classic pressure signs can't be trusted, entirely. It is also possible that you can load under SAMMI specs for a particular cartridge and have pressure signs.
I don't know what your barrel length is but if your shooting
243/105's at 3,375 I would not want to be near you when shooting that load.
The bridge with a heavy load can be crossed 5,000 times and you won't see a crack and then it might take only 50 times. I'm not into taking those kinds of chances and that's the deception that the Ackley Improved cartridges provide.
60 to 65K is my limit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you are saying that shoulder taper has nothing to do with pressure? And I would be willing to bet that you can't get a 105 amax 75fps near the 3375fps that I can in my ackley WITHOUT ANY PRESSURE SIGNS? </div></div>
Classic pressure signs can't be trusted, entirely. It is also possible that you can load under SAMMI specs for a particular cartridge and have pressure signs.
I don't know what your barrel length is but if your shooting
243/105's at 3,375 I would not want to be near you when shooting that load.
The bridge with a heavy load can be crossed 5,000 times and you won't see a crack and then it might take only 50 times. I'm not into taking those kinds of chances and that's the deception that the Ackley Improved cartridges provide.
60 to 65K is my limit.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
Bob,
I agree, my point is that they are often overloaded, to unsafe pressure and the increased velocity is touted as the "advantage" of the AI case. Hornets and the old 300 H&H were prime targets for improvement. Those old tapered cases do feed smooth though. There is also a reason that no military cases are 40 deg shoulders. Also many of the guys you see shooting the AI are not the most expirenced reloaders. Bad combinition.
Bob,
I agree, my point is that they are often overloaded, to unsafe pressure and the increased velocity is touted as the "advantage" of the AI case. Hornets and the old 300 H&H were prime targets for improvement. Those old tapered cases do feed smooth though. There is also a reason that no military cases are 40 deg shoulders. Also many of the guys you see shooting the AI are not the most expirenced reloaders. Bad combinition.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you are saying that shoulder taper has nothing to do with pressure? And I would be willing to bet that you can't get a 105 amax 75fps near the 3375fps that I can in my ackley WITHOUT ANY PRESSURE SIGNS? </div></div>
Classic pressure signs can't be trusted, entirely. It is also possible that you can load under SAMMI specs for a particular cartridge and have pressure signs.
I don't know what your barrel length is but if your shooting
243/105's at 3,375 I would not want to be near you when shooting that load.
The bridge with a heavy load can be crossed 5,000 times and you won't see a crack and then it might take only 50 times. I'm not into taking those kinds of chances and that's the deception that the Ackley Improved cartridges provide.
60 to 65K is my limit.
</div></div>
So how many Ackley Improved chambers have you owned? And the load I mentioned isn't hot. Another gun with 2 inches less barrel gets 3325 with the 105's. If pressures were as high as you say they are, we would be trashing our brass and primer pockets would be getting loose, correct? Well then why isn't it? Your opinion is just that, an opinion, doesn't make it fact.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you are saying that shoulder taper has nothing to do with pressure? And I would be willing to bet that you can't get a 105 amax 75fps near the 3375fps that I can in my ackley WITHOUT ANY PRESSURE SIGNS? </div></div>
Classic pressure signs can't be trusted, entirely. It is also possible that you can load under SAMMI specs for a particular cartridge and have pressure signs.
I don't know what your barrel length is but if your shooting
243/105's at 3,375 I would not want to be near you when shooting that load.
The bridge with a heavy load can be crossed 5,000 times and you won't see a crack and then it might take only 50 times. I'm not into taking those kinds of chances and that's the deception that the Ackley Improved cartridges provide.
60 to 65K is my limit.
</div></div>
So how many Ackley Improved chambers have you owned? And the load I mentioned isn't hot. Another gun with 2 inches less barrel gets 3325 with the 105's. If pressures were as high as you say they are, we would be trashing our brass and primer pockets would be getting loose, correct? Well then why isn't it? Your opinion is just that, an opinion, doesn't make it fact.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
I guess its magic, ran alot of 243AI with 105's and R-17 have you? I hear you and apachekid talking but its hard to understand what you are saying due to the fact that its muffled due to tha fact that you both are talking out your ASS.............
I guess its magic, ran alot of 243AI with 105's and R-17 have you? I hear you and apachekid talking but its hard to understand what you are saying due to the fact that its muffled due to tha fact that you both are talking out your ASS.............
Re: 260 vs 260ai
To the OP i cant ansmwer has i have NO first hand experience with the 260 , but it is worth for just the brass prep....
To the OP i cant ansmwer has i have NO first hand experience with the 260 , but it is worth for just the brass prep....
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rth1800,
On the subject of case life, and trimming, yes, an Improved or AI case will lessen the need to trim, and a case may last longer (if you keep pressures sane). But you have to fire form every case, to get there. So you can either spend more time at the range or more time at the loading bench. It's your time either way....
Bob
</div></div>
Form firing in my rifles was done with pleasure.... shot as good as pre AI so just kept shooting Rabbits etc untill all cases where done...No chore there
The 22-250 saw a larger increase in velocity from best group to best group using the same jump and powder...200fps. I am not saying std wouldn't shoot faster if I played with it more but as it was the cases were trimed each firing pre AI (was hot enough) and one in 5 after
but as I stated above if all you are after is Velocity AI is not a mirical cure......go a more overbore case
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rth1800,
On the subject of case life, and trimming, yes, an Improved or AI case will lessen the need to trim, and a case may last longer (if you keep pressures sane). But you have to fire form every case, to get there. So you can either spend more time at the range or more time at the loading bench. It's your time either way....
Bob
</div></div>
Form firing in my rifles was done with pleasure.... shot as good as pre AI so just kept shooting Rabbits etc untill all cases where done...No chore there
The 22-250 saw a larger increase in velocity from best group to best group using the same jump and powder...200fps. I am not saying std wouldn't shoot faster if I played with it more but as it was the cases were trimed each firing pre AI (was hot enough) and one in 5 after
but as I stated above if all you are after is Velocity AI is not a mirical cure......go a more overbore case
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you are saying that shoulder taper has nothing to do with pressure? And I would be willing to bet that you can't get a 105 amax 75fps near the 3375fps that I can in my ackley WITHOUT ANY PRESSURE SIGNS? </div></div>
I don't know what your barrel length is but if your shooting
243/105's at 3,375 I would not want to be near you when shooting that load.
</div></div>
I do know the 243AI and RL 17 with the 105 amax is achieving 3250 fps in a 24" barrel and to date that shooter has no loose primers which do happen after a few firings if its tooooo hot.....The preasure has to be up there but he swears there is no case streach....I dont run mine to hot so can't judge.
But the 243 will have a larger gain than 260 though.....308/ 7-08 I wouldn't bother 260mmmm not sure I didn't shoot mine enough to see what the case streach is like
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you are saying that shoulder taper has nothing to do with pressure? And I would be willing to bet that you can't get a 105 amax 75fps near the 3375fps that I can in my ackley WITHOUT ANY PRESSURE SIGNS? </div></div>
I don't know what your barrel length is but if your shooting
243/105's at 3,375 I would not want to be near you when shooting that load.
</div></div>
I do know the 243AI and RL 17 with the 105 amax is achieving 3250 fps in a 24" barrel and to date that shooter has no loose primers which do happen after a few firings if its tooooo hot.....The preasure has to be up there but he swears there is no case streach....I dont run mine to hot so can't judge.
But the 243 will have a larger gain than 260 though.....308/ 7-08 I wouldn't bother 260mmmm not sure I didn't shoot mine enough to see what the case streach is like
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, unfortuneatly for you, I do. I will leave you to your delusions now. Have a nice evening. </div></div>
Yes and I appreciate your input.
To bad those who drink the AI kool-aid have become delusional
and have resorted to name calling.
We'll just leave you to your ignorance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, unfortuneatly for you, I do. I will leave you to your delusions now. Have a nice evening. </div></div>
Yes and I appreciate your input.
To bad those who drink the AI kool-aid have become delusional
and have resorted to name calling.
We'll just leave you to your ignorance.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
You have still not answered my question...how many of them have you owned? You have all this knowledge....do impart on us Kool-aid drinkers how vast your first hand knowledge is.......
Waiting....
You have still not answered my question...how many of them have you owned? You have all this knowledge....do impart on us Kool-aid drinkers how vast your first hand knowledge is.......
Waiting....
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, unfortuneatly for you, I do. I will leave you to your delusions now. Have a nice evening. </div></div>
Yes and I appreciate your input.
To bad those who drink the AI kool-aid have become delusional
and have resorted to name calling.
We'll just leave you to your ignorance.
</div></div>
Still muffled.......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, unfortuneatly for you, I do. I will leave you to your delusions now. Have a nice evening. </div></div>
Yes and I appreciate your input.
To bad those who drink the AI kool-aid have become delusional
and have resorted to name calling.
We'll just leave you to your ignorance.
</div></div>
Still muffled.......
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have still not answered my question...how many of them have you owned? </div></div>
In 1977 I had Paul Marquart make up a 280 Rem for me in a 26" barrel. I wanted to experiment with it. After 500 rounds I had him punch it to 280 RCBS, 30 degree shoulder, after another 500 rounds, I had him punch it to 280 AI, 40 degree shoulder, and put another 500 rounds through it.
If you load each one to the approxamite 65k psi mark there was not but 80 to 100 fps difference between the 3 rounds. I like the RCBS version the best. Fed easy and eliminated case stretch.
I leaned on it hard trying to achieve higher speeds and did
with no signs of pressure. I thought some magic mogo in regards to shoulder angle made me safe. I realize now that I was stupid.
Paul also punched out a 6mm Rem to 6mm AI in a varmint 700
I never gained over a 100 fps with the AI.
In the mid 90's I punched out a 223 to AI version for PD town.
And also punched out a 280 Rem mtn rifle to the AI version 22" barrel. I became frustrated with this as I could never get more than but 60 fps over what I was already loading.
Early 2002 I punched out a 708 Rem to AI to the AI version then punched it to 284 Win and added a Wyatts box to seat longer bullets.
Many will disagree but the 284 case was the way to go for me in a short action with a Wyatts box. I achieved another 150 fps legit at sane pressures. Right now I'm running 6.5-284's out of short action in spite of being told it does not work.
HA!
After the past 30 plus years of running AI's I realized through being open minded to the results of some writers who
did the same as I did but being able to measure their pressures that we were loading hot, hot, hot.
I won't any more, it only takes one time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have still not answered my question...how many of them have you owned? </div></div>
In 1977 I had Paul Marquart make up a 280 Rem for me in a 26" barrel. I wanted to experiment with it. After 500 rounds I had him punch it to 280 RCBS, 30 degree shoulder, after another 500 rounds, I had him punch it to 280 AI, 40 degree shoulder, and put another 500 rounds through it.
If you load each one to the approxamite 65k psi mark there was not but 80 to 100 fps difference between the 3 rounds. I like the RCBS version the best. Fed easy and eliminated case stretch.
I leaned on it hard trying to achieve higher speeds and did
with no signs of pressure. I thought some magic mogo in regards to shoulder angle made me safe. I realize now that I was stupid.
Paul also punched out a 6mm Rem to 6mm AI in a varmint 700
I never gained over a 100 fps with the AI.
In the mid 90's I punched out a 223 to AI version for PD town.
And also punched out a 280 Rem mtn rifle to the AI version 22" barrel. I became frustrated with this as I could never get more than but 60 fps over what I was already loading.
Early 2002 I punched out a 708 Rem to AI to the AI version then punched it to 284 Win and added a Wyatts box to seat longer bullets.
Many will disagree but the 284 case was the way to go for me in a short action with a Wyatts box. I achieved another 150 fps legit at sane pressures. Right now I'm running 6.5-284's out of short action in spite of being told it does not work.
HA!
After the past 30 plus years of running AI's I realized through being open minded to the results of some writers who
did the same as I did but being able to measure their pressures that we were loading hot, hot, hot.
I won't any more, it only takes one time.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
I'm sorry but powders now are different then they were back in 1977....I think if you use the same powder for 243AI that you do for 243win, then yes, you may not see a velocity gain that is "worth it to you" R17 in the 243AI is the real deal.....
I'm sorry but powders now are different then they were back in 1977....I think if you use the same powder for 243AI that you do for 243win, then yes, you may not see a velocity gain that is "worth it to you" R17 in the 243AI is the real deal.....
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry but powders now are different then they were back in 1977....I think if you use the same powder for 243AI that you do for 243win, then yes, you may not see a velocity gain that is "worth it to you" R17 in the 243AI is the real deal..... </div></div>
How much RL 17 are you using and whats your COAL?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry but powders now are different then they were back in 1977....I think if you use the same powder for 243AI that you do for 243win, then yes, you may not see a velocity gain that is "worth it to you" R17 in the 243AI is the real deal..... </div></div>
How much RL 17 are you using and whats your COAL?
Re: 260 vs 260ai
Apache,
You cannot beat them. First the magic shoulder that eliminates the laws of physics, now the magic pixie dust powder. All you have are physics, facts and 30 years expierence. That is damm poor ammunition when dealing with a true beliver.
I think the P. O. Ackley made a deal and anyone blowing themselves up with an A.I. gets 72 virgins. Which makes me wonder, at some point would you not want one who know what she was doing? If you keep this up you will wind up on double seceret probation!
JCH, Why are you sorry powders are different now. No one else is. I would respectfully suggest that rather than make this about A.I. cartridges, you just try to grasp the basic laws of physics. They do not lie. 5% more powder equals 2-3 % more velocity at the same pressure. Repeat after me 5%...
You are on your own now. I am leaving this again. May come back later.
Apache,
You cannot beat them. First the magic shoulder that eliminates the laws of physics, now the magic pixie dust powder. All you have are physics, facts and 30 years expierence. That is damm poor ammunition when dealing with a true beliver.
I think the P. O. Ackley made a deal and anyone blowing themselves up with an A.I. gets 72 virgins. Which makes me wonder, at some point would you not want one who know what she was doing? If you keep this up you will wind up on double seceret probation!
JCH, Why are you sorry powders are different now. No one else is. I would respectfully suggest that rather than make this about A.I. cartridges, you just try to grasp the basic laws of physics. They do not lie. 5% more powder equals 2-3 % more velocity at the same pressure. Repeat after me 5%...
You are on your own now. I am leaving this again. May come back later.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry but powders now are different then they were back in 1977..</div></div>
I've run all the modern powders in them as well, same results.
You can't change hard facts.
You're only fooling yourself and please don't be sorry.
RL17 is a whole nother powder in it's self. Pressure for pressure, I can take a regular 243 win and get within 80 fps of your 243 AI with that same powder.
Of course your going to load it in the 80k psi range and think you're just fine.
Stupidity abounds here.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry but powders now are different then they were back in 1977..</div></div>
I've run all the modern powders in them as well, same results.
You can't change hard facts.
You're only fooling yourself and please don't be sorry.
RL17 is a whole nother powder in it's self. Pressure for pressure, I can take a regular 243 win and get within 80 fps of your 243 AI with that same powder.
Of course your going to load it in the 80k psi range and think you're just fine.
Stupidity abounds here.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They do not lie. 5% more powder equals 2-3 % more velocity at the same pressure. Repeat after me 5%...</div></div>
Amen, brother.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They do not lie. 5% more powder equals 2-3 % more velocity at the same pressure. Repeat after me 5%...</div></div>
Amen, brother.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Stupidity abounds here.</div></div>
That sir is one thing you are correct on.....Just a shame that you think it isn't you. I'm done arguing with internet reloading gurus!
Anytime you wanna bring your 243 and try your theory your welcome to it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Stupidity abounds here.</div></div>
That sir is one thing you are correct on.....Just a shame that you think it isn't you. I'm done arguing with internet reloading gurus!
Anytime you wanna bring your 243 and try your theory your welcome to it.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
JCH,
I really don't think that anyone is arguing with you. I sure you really get 3375 FPS. The question is: Can you get 3375 FPS @ 60K PSI with a 105 gr A-MAX. Why 60K? Because that's the Max SAAMI pressure for a 243 Winchester.
First case capacity:
243 Winchester 54.8 grains water (WW Brass)
243 AI 59.8 grains water (WW Brass)
240 Weatherby 65.9 grains water (Norma Brass)
Your AI has 9.1% more capacity, which should yield you 4.55% more velocity than a 243. 4.55% is about 145 FPS @ the same 60K PSI.
The fact that you not getting loose primer pockets means nothing. Loose primer pockets are only one sign of high pressure. And you cannot get velocity without pressure, and your velocity is in 240 Weatherby neighborhood.
Have you run your load through Quick Load? Have you tested your load with an Oehler Model 43? If not, your just guessing that your load is below SAFE MAX.
But there are other factors:
How long is your barrel?
What's your COAL with your 243 AI?
Those facts will have an impact, on your velocity. So yes, you can get 3375 FPS in your 243 AI. But you cannot do it under a COAL of 2.860", and less than a 29" barrel, and still maintain 60K PSI.
And it does not take a internet reloading guru to figure this stuff out. And yes, I owned and reloaded for all three, 243, 243 AI and 240 Weatherby.
BTW, a max load of RL-17 in a regular 243 is:
Winchester 2.625" 24" Fed 210 Reloader 17 40.8 grains 3,044 FPS
Best of luck,
Bob
JCH,
I really don't think that anyone is arguing with you. I sure you really get 3375 FPS. The question is: Can you get 3375 FPS @ 60K PSI with a 105 gr A-MAX. Why 60K? Because that's the Max SAAMI pressure for a 243 Winchester.
First case capacity:
243 Winchester 54.8 grains water (WW Brass)
243 AI 59.8 grains water (WW Brass)
240 Weatherby 65.9 grains water (Norma Brass)
Your AI has 9.1% more capacity, which should yield you 4.55% more velocity than a 243. 4.55% is about 145 FPS @ the same 60K PSI.
The fact that you not getting loose primer pockets means nothing. Loose primer pockets are only one sign of high pressure. And you cannot get velocity without pressure, and your velocity is in 240 Weatherby neighborhood.
Have you run your load through Quick Load? Have you tested your load with an Oehler Model 43? If not, your just guessing that your load is below SAFE MAX.
But there are other factors:
How long is your barrel?
What's your COAL with your 243 AI?
Those facts will have an impact, on your velocity. So yes, you can get 3375 FPS in your 243 AI. But you cannot do it under a COAL of 2.860", and less than a 29" barrel, and still maintain 60K PSI.
And it does not take a internet reloading guru to figure this stuff out. And yes, I owned and reloaded for all three, 243, 243 AI and 240 Weatherby.
BTW, a max load of RL-17 in a regular 243 is:
Winchester 2.625" 24" Fed 210 Reloader 17 40.8 grains 3,044 FPS
Best of luck,
Bob
Re: 260 vs 260ai
Just a couple of questions....I see the SAAMI preasure has dropped as I have old book at home that I am sure had 65,000 as max
must because that modern cal is getting old and some rifles will only take that......But then a new rig should be fine for 65,000 psi
The 243AI at 9.1% gain in case would be worth it in my view but I guess the 260 would be less gain....still sitting on the fence with that one
Just a couple of questions....I see the SAAMI preasure has dropped as I have old book at home that I am sure had 65,000 as max
The 243AI at 9.1% gain in case would be worth it in my view but I guess the 260 would be less gain....still sitting on the fence with that one
Re: 260 vs 260ai
leathel,
Here the latest SAAMI spec's I could find, from 2004:
SAAMI Pressures
The 243 is maxed out @ 60K PSI per SAAMI. Of course a 65K 243 load is "safe" to shoot in a modern gun. A standard 243 proof load (in countries where it is required) runs 75K PSI. And the gun does not "blow up" when running the proof load, thus passing "proof".
But the whole point is, not that you cannot reach 3375 FPS in a 243 AI with a 105 grain bullet. Of course you can. The point is you cannot do it at 60K PSI, which is the SAFE MAX for a 243.
Anyone is of course allowed to reload at whatever pressures they want. The is no law, except the "law of averages", to prevent one from developing a 70-75K PSI 243 AI load and calling it good enough.
But think about this though:
Compare 3375 FPS vs 3250 FPS with a 105 AMAX in any 24X cartridge, in JBM. The "extra" 125 FPS yields you a whole lot of nothing, except a few less tens of a MIL on your elevation dial. Certainly your barrel life and case life will ultimately suffer. For what exactly are you getting, and how are you using that extree 125 FPS or 3.8% more velocity????
Yes, the 260AI will have a less "improved" capacity than the 243 AI due to the different shoulder to neck angle and junction.
leathel,
Here the latest SAAMI spec's I could find, from 2004:
SAAMI Pressures
The 243 is maxed out @ 60K PSI per SAAMI. Of course a 65K 243 load is "safe" to shoot in a modern gun. A standard 243 proof load (in countries where it is required) runs 75K PSI. And the gun does not "blow up" when running the proof load, thus passing "proof".
But the whole point is, not that you cannot reach 3375 FPS in a 243 AI with a 105 grain bullet. Of course you can. The point is you cannot do it at 60K PSI, which is the SAFE MAX for a 243.
Anyone is of course allowed to reload at whatever pressures they want. The is no law, except the "law of averages", to prevent one from developing a 70-75K PSI 243 AI load and calling it good enough.
But think about this though:
Compare 3375 FPS vs 3250 FPS with a 105 AMAX in any 24X cartridge, in JBM. The "extra" 125 FPS yields you a whole lot of nothing, except a few less tens of a MIL on your elevation dial. Certainly your barrel life and case life will ultimately suffer. For what exactly are you getting, and how are you using that extree 125 FPS or 3.8% more velocity????
Yes, the 260AI will have a less "improved" capacity than the 243 AI due to the different shoulder to neck angle and junction.
Re: 260 vs 260ai
For those running RL17 and wondering what the down side is to that velocity.....Barrel life
as stated above hot loads reduce barrel life, In a 6.5x284 I know of one where the throat got to the shooters replace point 300 rounds earlier
But I guess hunters it is not as much of a problem as once the load is sorted the number of rounds shot through the rifle is minimal compared to a target rifle.....
Apache Kid
I am not surprized you were a little dishartened with Ackley cases as some of the ones you did get very little gain...Like 223 and 7-08, the 6mm Rem I would have expected a little more but it isn't as Parrallel as some of the Ackley cases but was that a short barreled AI like the 280AI....you dont get the gain from the case capacity in short barrels as there is no real advantage in running a slower powder to utilize the case capacity....24-26" would be at the shorter end of things I would use
I have had great impovements in the 22-250 case and 26" barrel but am going to try it at 24" in a second rig so it will be interesting to see how much we loose in gain over a std round in a 24" barrel (200fps gain at the same case streach in 26") the 26" with a supressor on is just to long as it sticks out past the Quad front box too much....
For those running RL17 and wondering what the down side is to that velocity.....Barrel life
But I guess hunters it is not as much of a problem as once the load is sorted the number of rounds shot through the rifle is minimal compared to a target rifle.....
Apache Kid
I am not surprized you were a little dishartened with Ackley cases as some of the ones you did get very little gain...Like 223 and 7-08, the 6mm Rem I would have expected a little more but it isn't as Parrallel as some of the Ackley cases but was that a short barreled AI like the 280AI....you dont get the gain from the case capacity in short barrels as there is no real advantage in running a slower powder to utilize the case capacity....24-26" would be at the shorter end of things I would use
I have had great impovements in the 22-250 case and 26" barrel but am going to try it at 24" in a second rig so it will be interesting to see how much we loose in gain over a std round in a 24" barrel (200fps gain at the same case streach in 26") the 26" with a supressor on is just to long as it sticks out past the Quad front box too much....
Re: 260 vs 260ai
A .260AI is virtually the same as a 6.5x55, so what's the point? Also, who's going to go with an AI and not use the full capacity, again, what would be the point? IMHO, this virtually guarantees the case will be run ASAP hot, and I don't see that as a good thing for bore longevity.
Greg
A .260AI is virtually the same as a 6.5x55, so what's the point? Also, who's going to go with an AI and not use the full capacity, again, what would be the point? IMHO, this virtually guarantees the case will be run ASAP hot, and I don't see that as a good thing for bore longevity.
Greg
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