Well i cant seem to stop thinking about having a 260AI. How does the 260AI compare to the 6.5x284 in terms of performance and barrel wear? Also will the 260AI feed ok from a badger bottom metal or even a seekins or AI? I have some once fired 243AI Lapua brass from a previous build and i used my Neck sizing mandrel and up sized a 243AI case to a 260AI. I dont know if it would chamber in a rifle but it seems like a pretty simple case to make. What do you fellas think about the 260AI in general? Just looking for some general thoughts. My smith just got a fresh reamer so if i decide i want one it wont be a problem! Thanks Lee
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support -
Not receiving emails?
We're currently aware of an issue with our email provider and working to fix it as quickly as we can! Appreciate your patience here!
View thread
260AI Lets talk!!
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Comparable 65x284 velocity with better barrel life, fits in a short action.
That's the theory anyway, I got the bug too and am currently building one. My current 65x284 has a 25" barrel and I'm getting 2781fps with the 142smk. I'm hoping for 2900+ in the Ackley with a 24" barrel. We'll see what happens though.
Comparable 65x284 velocity with better barrel life, fits in a short action.
That's the theory anyway, I got the bug too and am currently building one. My current 65x284 has a 25" barrel and I'm getting 2781fps with the 142smk. I'm hoping for 2900+ in the Ackley with a 24" barrel. We'll see what happens though.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Gap is getting ready to build me a new hunting rifle in .260 might explore this option with moon
Gap is getting ready to build me a new hunting rifle in .260 might explore this option with moon
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
well I gotta tell you my 260AI shoots very very well. I thought I was going to get more velocity then Im getting but the load runs so well for me in the 2880's (75deg). That I stopped, it was running S/D of 2, (over my Oehler 35P) and I was just starting to flatten out in the primer. lots of guys have been running them faster, more in the 2935 neighborhood, but I havent pushed it up there and I dont think with the 4831SC that im running it would get there.
mike
well I gotta tell you my 260AI shoots very very well. I thought I was going to get more velocity then Im getting but the load runs so well for me in the 2880's (75deg). That I stopped, it was running S/D of 2, (over my Oehler 35P) and I was just starting to flatten out in the primer. lots of guys have been running them faster, more in the 2935 neighborhood, but I havent pushed it up there and I dont think with the 4831SC that im running it would get there.
mike
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
I shot a reg 260 for a good bit and loved it , I used 308 Lapua brass and necked it down , this caused a slightly tight neck that required a tiny amout of neck trimming but the end result was awsome , I shot 140gr Bergers mostly and they are very impressive to 1000 yds. Actualy made my longest kill on a deer with that gun at 944 yds.
I assume that the Ackley would give a little bit more velocity and better case life , but you gotta fire for for the benifits. I think that the differance between the 260 and the 260 Ai is kinda like compairing the 308 to the 30-06 , of course theirs a slight balistic edge but is it worth the extra effort?
I shot a reg 260 for a good bit and loved it , I used 308 Lapua brass and necked it down , this caused a slightly tight neck that required a tiny amout of neck trimming but the end result was awsome , I shot 140gr Bergers mostly and they are very impressive to 1000 yds. Actualy made my longest kill on a deer with that gun at 944 yds.
I assume that the Ackley would give a little bit more velocity and better case life , but you gotta fire for for the benifits. I think that the differance between the 260 and the 260 Ai is kinda like compairing the 308 to the 30-06 , of course theirs a slight balistic edge but is it worth the extra effort?
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
I have a .257 AI and fire-forming the brass there is negligible POI change with is nice
I have a .257 AI and fire-forming the brass there is negligible POI change with is nice
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Lee you read my mind. I just ordered a 6.5mm Broughton for this very thing. I've read that they feed well from a center fed DM setup. Redding makes .260AI dies, but 7mm08AI are much cheaper and as you know a bushing is all that would be needed. I can't decide if I want a 26" or 24". I'm interested to see what others are running.
Lee you read my mind. I just ordered a 6.5mm Broughton for this very thing. I've read that they feed well from a center fed DM setup. Redding makes .260AI dies, but 7mm08AI are much cheaper and as you know a bushing is all that would be needed. I can't decide if I want a 26" or 24". I'm interested to see what others are running.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Before I'd go AI, I'd try 6.5X55. I single load, anyway; and have my ejector removed. My action is a Savage SA. The 6.5X55 can be easily removed from the action unfired by simply tripping the bolt release and withdrawing that bolt a fraction of an inch further. Happens so seldom, it's not an issue. So nice to have factory brass/ammo from so many sources.
Greg
Before I'd go AI, I'd try 6.5X55. I single load, anyway; and have my ejector removed. My action is a Savage SA. The 6.5X55 can be easily removed from the action unfired by simply tripping the bolt release and withdrawing that bolt a fraction of an inch further. Happens so seldom, it's not an issue. So nice to have factory brass/ammo from so many sources.
Greg
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Comparable 65x284 velocity with better barrel life, fits in a short action.
That's the theory anyway, I got the bug too and am currently building one. My current 65x284 has a 25" barrel and I'm getting 2781fps with the 142smk. I'm hoping for 2900+ in the Ackley with a 24" barrel. We'll see what happens though.</div></div>
Not quite,
You can reach bottom end 6.5x284 velocities with a 260AI pushing the limit, but you're not really getting into what a 6.5x284 can do. After all, case capacity is case capacity. In my light load 6.5x284 I get almost 3000fps with a 139gn Lapua. With a 260AI you may get 2950. With the "I don't care about barrel life" load, shooters have gone past 3100. You couldn't even come close to those velocities with a 260AI. Barrel life is going to be better definitely though. Terry Cross is the 260AI guru, I would ping him for info.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html
Plus, I hate the fireforming brass issue. Unless you have a fireforming system, or separate rifle, half your barrel life is forming brass.
Now Greg hits the nail on the head. I think the Swede is one of the most underappreciated, under utilized 6.5 calibers out there. Tons of quality brass that's inexpensive and excellent performance. If it wouldn't have been for my 1:9 barrel twist, my current 6.5x284 would be a Swede. Yes, there is the LA vs. SA issue which I personally think is BS, but NotAGuru built a Swede on a SA so it can be done.
Talk to Terry Cross.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Comparable 65x284 velocity with better barrel life, fits in a short action.
That's the theory anyway, I got the bug too and am currently building one. My current 65x284 has a 25" barrel and I'm getting 2781fps with the 142smk. I'm hoping for 2900+ in the Ackley with a 24" barrel. We'll see what happens though.</div></div>
Not quite,
You can reach bottom end 6.5x284 velocities with a 260AI pushing the limit, but you're not really getting into what a 6.5x284 can do. After all, case capacity is case capacity. In my light load 6.5x284 I get almost 3000fps with a 139gn Lapua. With a 260AI you may get 2950. With the "I don't care about barrel life" load, shooters have gone past 3100. You couldn't even come close to those velocities with a 260AI. Barrel life is going to be better definitely though. Terry Cross is the 260AI guru, I would ping him for info.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html
Plus, I hate the fireforming brass issue. Unless you have a fireforming system, or separate rifle, half your barrel life is forming brass.
Now Greg hits the nail on the head. I think the Swede is one of the most underappreciated, under utilized 6.5 calibers out there. Tons of quality brass that's inexpensive and excellent performance. If it wouldn't have been for my 1:9 barrel twist, my current 6.5x284 would be a Swede. Yes, there is the LA vs. SA issue which I personally think is BS, but NotAGuru built a Swede on a SA so it can be done.
Talk to Terry Cross.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Is the 260AI really worth the extra 100fps. The only thing you will get is less elevation. The wind is the same. The Swede would be another gun completely. If shooting F-Class or matches like Greg said they are single load.
Run the numbers on a ballastic program and see the differences that a 100fps would do. I don't think it is much.
Is the 260AI really worth the extra 100fps. The only thing you will get is less elevation. The wind is the same. The Swede would be another gun completely. If shooting F-Class or matches like Greg said they are single load.
Run the numbers on a ballastic program and see the differences that a 100fps would do. I don't think it is much.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
That backs up what I've read Mike. That the 260AI will run with the lower node of a 6.5x284. Fireforming doesn't bother me. Most fire forming loads run pretty darn well.
That backs up what I've read Mike. That the 260AI will run with the lower node of a 6.5x284. Fireforming doesn't bother me. Most fire forming loads run pretty darn well.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
I remember reading a article from Terry Cross on this very subject. He shot the 260AI for a couple of competitions. He figured it was better to just use the 260.
Found it
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html
I remember reading a article from Terry Cross on this very subject. He shot the 260AI for a couple of competitions. He figured it was better to just use the 260.
Found it
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
skeetlee,
I'm never one to dissuade anyone from buying or building any rifle and cartridge combo they like. But improvement of any .308 based case yields negligible returns, for maximum work and investment.
The whole Ackley Improved concept works best on on parent cases that have great deal of taper base to neck. Cases based on the 250 Savage, 300 & 375 H&H, 30-30 win, even the 30-06.
The 308 Winchester parent case already has minimum taper. Improving it yields maybe 100 FPS if your lucky. Your chasing a chimera thinking that Improving a 260 Rem will get you anywhere near a 6.5x284. The 284 based case starts with a near 15% advantage in case capacity over the standard 260. Improving the 260 by 5% will not get you even close with like pressures.
Of course if you want it, please build it. But improving a 308 based anything is a waste of good brass, powder and bullet. Your money your choice.....
Bob
skeetlee,
I'm never one to dissuade anyone from buying or building any rifle and cartridge combo they like. But improvement of any .308 based case yields negligible returns, for maximum work and investment.
The whole Ackley Improved concept works best on on parent cases that have great deal of taper base to neck. Cases based on the 250 Savage, 300 & 375 H&H, 30-30 win, even the 30-06.
The 308 Winchester parent case already has minimum taper. Improving it yields maybe 100 FPS if your lucky. Your chasing a chimera thinking that Improving a 260 Rem will get you anywhere near a 6.5x284. The 284 based case starts with a near 15% advantage in case capacity over the standard 260. Improving the 260 by 5% will not get you even close with like pressures.
Of course if you want it, please build it. But improving a 308 based anything is a waste of good brass, powder and bullet. Your money your choice.....
Bob
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
BobinNC
Maybe i forgot what a 243 or 260 case looks like but those shoulders are not steep! The 243 I have grows 10thou everytime i shoot it, so it seems! Im not 100% sold on the 260AI yet, but i just may go with it. If i dont do the AI i will look closly at something in 7mm. Fireforming is no big deal to me. Just another reason to get out of the house and spend some time behind a rifle! Lee
BobinNC
Maybe i forgot what a 243 or 260 case looks like but those shoulders are not steep! The 243 I have grows 10thou everytime i shoot it, so it seems! Im not 100% sold on the 260AI yet, but i just may go with it. If i dont do the AI i will look closly at something in 7mm. Fireforming is no big deal to me. Just another reason to get out of the house and spend some time behind a rifle! Lee
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Bob I have to agree with Lee here. iirc P O Ackley worked on the .243 due to the case stretch that occurs. In fact most of his work was not chasing velocity, it was brass life. So anything improved is not a waste of brass. Most of my AI chamberings still hammer out around 1/2moa so it's not a wasted of powder or bullets. YMMV
Bob I have to agree with Lee here. iirc P O Ackley worked on the .243 due to the case stretch that occurs. In fact most of his work was not chasing velocity, it was brass life. So anything improved is not a waste of brass. Most of my AI chamberings still hammer out around 1/2moa so it's not a wasted of powder or bullets. YMMV
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
I guess I'm just missing the point.
Ok, let's say in my .243 Win I get 8 loading out my Lapua brass. You have a .243AI. How many loading do you get....11-12. So you get 3-4 more, which means 300 to 400 more shots, maybe, out of the original 100 cases.
But then you have to throw the first 100 away, because you have to fireform. That's 100 bullets, 100 primers, and 100 loads of powder, and 100 shots more wear and tear on your barrel. What's that cost in todays prices? Plus the added the cost of the AI chambering, and your dies are near double the cost of mine. Hell, the brass you'll throw away is the cheapest part of the whole equation.
But even if the brass life was longer, the first words out of every mouth when speaking AI's, is how much more velocity they can get, not brass life.
SkeetLee talks about how much sharper the neck angle is on an Improved version of the 243 or 260 Rem. And so it is, but large case capacity gains comes not from the sharper shoulder angle, but from reducing body taper. And there is just not that much body taper to straighten in a case based on a 308.
Realistically, you only get about 5% greater capacity from Improving a 308 parent case. 5% equals less than 2.5% increase in velocity. So in a 3000 FPS case were talking 75 FPS, at the same pressure.
But like I said, if you think it is worthwhile for whatever reason, then do it. Even if the project is a net loser $ wise, shooting more is always a good thing, and it beats golf all to hell.
Best of luck,
Bob
I guess I'm just missing the point.
Ok, let's say in my .243 Win I get 8 loading out my Lapua brass. You have a .243AI. How many loading do you get....11-12. So you get 3-4 more, which means 300 to 400 more shots, maybe, out of the original 100 cases.
But then you have to throw the first 100 away, because you have to fireform. That's 100 bullets, 100 primers, and 100 loads of powder, and 100 shots more wear and tear on your barrel. What's that cost in todays prices? Plus the added the cost of the AI chambering, and your dies are near double the cost of mine. Hell, the brass you'll throw away is the cheapest part of the whole equation.
But even if the brass life was longer, the first words out of every mouth when speaking AI's, is how much more velocity they can get, not brass life.
SkeetLee talks about how much sharper the neck angle is on an Improved version of the 243 or 260 Rem. And so it is, but large case capacity gains comes not from the sharper shoulder angle, but from reducing body taper. And there is just not that much body taper to straighten in a case based on a 308.
Realistically, you only get about 5% greater capacity from Improving a 308 parent case. 5% equals less than 2.5% increase in velocity. So in a 3000 FPS case were talking 75 FPS, at the same pressure.
But like I said, if you think it is worthwhile for whatever reason, then do it. Even if the project is a net loser $ wise, shooting more is always a good thing, and it beats golf all to hell.
Best of luck,
Bob
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
You're right Bob. Most people today only look at the velocity side of things. That's the reason I'm going with a 260AI. But first you need to understand that you don't lose the first 100 firings in your brass. At least you don't if you spend them sending bullets down range. This is especially true since you don't gain a lot of velocity between the parent case and the AI version on a .308 based case. Dies aren't twice as expensive, and can be made using your reamer for cheap. I don't understand the extra cost of the chambering, as you're already paying to have it chambered. But in the end longer brass life as well as throat life have to be considered. http://www.6mmbr.com/243Win.html According to the article and my tests as well, you gain 5gr of case capacity, which is quite a bit more than 5%.
If you do consider fire forming to be a total loss of barrel life, then the cream of wheat method is always an option that doesn't hurt the barrel.
You're right Bob. Most people today only look at the velocity side of things. That's the reason I'm going with a 260AI. But first you need to understand that you don't lose the first 100 firings in your brass. At least you don't if you spend them sending bullets down range. This is especially true since you don't gain a lot of velocity between the parent case and the AI version on a .308 based case. Dies aren't twice as expensive, and can be made using your reamer for cheap. I don't understand the extra cost of the chambering, as you're already paying to have it chambered. But in the end longer brass life as well as throat life have to be considered. http://www.6mmbr.com/243Win.html According to the article and my tests as well, you gain 5gr of case capacity, which is quite a bit more than 5%.
If you do consider fire forming to be a total loss of barrel life, then the cream of wheat method is always an option that doesn't hurt the barrel.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Just like with my dasher, or any other case really, you have to blow your brass out a bit to mach the chamber the brass is going to be used in. I have a 30br, and those cases need to be blown out a tad bit before i would compete with them.
Back to the 6m dasher. I am using the false shoulder method to blow these cases out, and while doing so, i can already get a picture of whats going to work with this rifle, and what isn't. The extra time to do this is definitely not wasted. I have only shot a couple groups with my dasher with formed cases, and my results while fire-forming have been spot on. I can already tell that my rifle is going to shoot a 105gr Berger with around 32.5 gr of re15 and a cci primer with the bullet about 5 thou jammed. The other loads i have tried all brew the brass out just fine, but they were not as accurate as the load above. Once i get all my brass blown out, i will have to play with the powder a little bit and the seating depth may change a few thou, but the hard work is already done. I will have a good solid load for this rifle within 20 rounds fired after the cases have all been formed. I take good notes and i can get a feel for things while doing the brass work. Plus its a ton of fun!!
I want to compete in f-class this next spring and i need a rifle that will compete at 1000 yards. This is the reason i am asking about a 260AI. I may end up going with something completely different, I just dont know at this time. I have a short action single shot custom action, so i need to make this work. A 6.5x284 is better suited with a long action, at least this is the way i understand it. I am looking for the best chambering for the action i have. I personally like 6.5mm stuff and i have a feeling the 260AI will have what it takes. I have always felt that the standard 260rem was better suited for the 120gr class of bullets. Some will disagree with that, and thats fine. thats just my opinion. Maybe the extra 75-100fps will drive the 140's a bit better??? Thanks Fellas Lee
Just like with my dasher, or any other case really, you have to blow your brass out a bit to mach the chamber the brass is going to be used in. I have a 30br, and those cases need to be blown out a tad bit before i would compete with them.
Back to the 6m dasher. I am using the false shoulder method to blow these cases out, and while doing so, i can already get a picture of whats going to work with this rifle, and what isn't. The extra time to do this is definitely not wasted. I have only shot a couple groups with my dasher with formed cases, and my results while fire-forming have been spot on. I can already tell that my rifle is going to shoot a 105gr Berger with around 32.5 gr of re15 and a cci primer with the bullet about 5 thou jammed. The other loads i have tried all brew the brass out just fine, but they were not as accurate as the load above. Once i get all my brass blown out, i will have to play with the powder a little bit and the seating depth may change a few thou, but the hard work is already done. I will have a good solid load for this rifle within 20 rounds fired after the cases have all been formed. I take good notes and i can get a feel for things while doing the brass work. Plus its a ton of fun!!
I want to compete in f-class this next spring and i need a rifle that will compete at 1000 yards. This is the reason i am asking about a 260AI. I may end up going with something completely different, I just dont know at this time. I have a short action single shot custom action, so i need to make this work. A 6.5x284 is better suited with a long action, at least this is the way i understand it. I am looking for the best chambering for the action i have. I personally like 6.5mm stuff and i have a feeling the 260AI will have what it takes. I have always felt that the standard 260rem was better suited for the 120gr class of bullets. Some will disagree with that, and thats fine. thats just my opinion. Maybe the extra 75-100fps will drive the 140's a bit better??? Thanks Fellas Lee
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
I was looking at all 6.5 mm options for my next barrel on my F-class rig, except for 6.5 x 284. I have had most of the 6.5's and just fried my 6.5x 47L (1,800 rounds many of them threw a HOT barrel in comps) so that will be set back and chambered in the same. I have a 6.5 blank on the shelf that will be the long range barrel for the F-class rig chambered in 6.5 x 55 AI 40 deg shoulder), a little more capacity than 260 and the parent brass is Lapua both good things in my book.
I will post the results as they come in.
Thanks
I was looking at all 6.5 mm options for my next barrel on my F-class rig, except for 6.5 x 284. I have had most of the 6.5's and just fried my 6.5x 47L (1,800 rounds many of them threw a HOT barrel in comps) so that will be set back and chambered in the same. I have a 6.5 blank on the shelf that will be the long range barrel for the F-class rig chambered in 6.5 x 55 AI 40 deg shoulder), a little more capacity than 260 and the parent brass is Lapua both good things in my book.
I will post the results as they come in.
Thanks
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Terry no longer uses the 260AI, and has since returned to the standard .260. IIRC he thought it was more trouble than it was worth for a negligable bump in velocity. He is still winning and placing well with a standard .260 and that says a lot to me.
My .02...I wouldn't consider an ackley for a second, and I have owned one. There is simply no point. It's true that if you know your load, you can simply fill a virgin case with the ackley charge and fire it which takes away some of the effort. Chasing the last 100fps just doesn't pan out in my mind.
Neck up Lapua .243 brass for a standard .260 and be done with it.
Edited to add: I'm shooting a 6.5X47 now and enjoying it. 123 lapua's at 2900 (conservative load)is working great and shoots very much like my .260 with Lapua 139's at 2800.
Terry no longer uses the 260AI, and has since returned to the standard .260. IIRC he thought it was more trouble than it was worth for a negligable bump in velocity. He is still winning and placing well with a standard .260 and that says a lot to me.
My .02...I wouldn't consider an ackley for a second, and I have owned one. There is simply no point. It's true that if you know your load, you can simply fill a virgin case with the ackley charge and fire it which takes away some of the effort. Chasing the last 100fps just doesn't pan out in my mind.
Neck up Lapua .243 brass for a standard .260 and be done with it.
Edited to add: I'm shooting a 6.5X47 now and enjoying it. 123 lapua's at 2900 (conservative load)is working great and shoots very much like my .260 with Lapua 139's at 2800.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Comparable 65x284 velocity with better barrel life, fits in a short action.
That's the theory anyway, I got the bug too and am currently building one. My current 65x284 has a 25" barrel and I'm getting 2781fps with the 142smk. I'm hoping for 2900+ in the Ackley with a 24" barrel. We'll see what happens though.</div></div>
Not quite,
You can reach bottom end 6.5x284 velocities with a 260AI pushing the limit, but you're not really getting into what a 6.5x284 can do. After all, case capacity is case capacity. In my light load 6.5x284 I get almost 3000fps with a 139gn Lapua. With a 260AI you may get 2950. With the "I don't care about barrel life" load, shooters have gone past 3100. You couldn't even come close to those velocities with a 260AI. Barrel life is going to be better definitely though. Terry Cross is the 260AI guru, I would ping him for info.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html
Plus, I hate the fireforming brass issue. Unless you have a fireforming system, or separate rifle, half your barrel life is forming brass.
Now Greg hits the nail on the head. I think the Swede is one of the most underappreciated, under utilized 6.5 calibers out there. Tons of quality brass that's inexpensive and excellent performance. If it wouldn't have been for my 1:9 barrel twist, my current 6.5x284 would be a Swede. Yes, there is the LA vs. SA issue which I personally think is BS, but NotAGuru built a Swede on a SA so it can be done.
Talk to Terry Cross. </div></div>
Within 50fps is in my book 'comparable'. Obviously the 65x284 has an edge in capacity. I have not been able to get 4350 and 4831 to give me 3000fps in a 25" barrel with the accuracy I want. The accuracy node for the AI seems to be around 2900+. Most guys that I know that are getting 3000fps in the 65x284 without pressure issues are running 28" plus barrels. Terry Cross was getting 2930fps with the 139 Scenars in a 26" barrel (1/3moa) with his 260AI. Out of curiosity is anybody getting those velocities in a 26" barreled 65x284 with that kind of precision? If so, what load? If I could duplicate this with my 65x284 I would have no reason to change.
Also you are not spending half of your barrel life fire forming. If you can reload cases 10 times and it cost you 100 bullets to get there that's 1000 rnds for every 100 spent, not 1/2.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Comparable 65x284 velocity with better barrel life, fits in a short action.
That's the theory anyway, I got the bug too and am currently building one. My current 65x284 has a 25" barrel and I'm getting 2781fps with the 142smk. I'm hoping for 2900+ in the Ackley with a 24" barrel. We'll see what happens though.</div></div>
Not quite,
You can reach bottom end 6.5x284 velocities with a 260AI pushing the limit, but you're not really getting into what a 6.5x284 can do. After all, case capacity is case capacity. In my light load 6.5x284 I get almost 3000fps with a 139gn Lapua. With a 260AI you may get 2950. With the "I don't care about barrel life" load, shooters have gone past 3100. You couldn't even come close to those velocities with a 260AI. Barrel life is going to be better definitely though. Terry Cross is the 260AI guru, I would ping him for info.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html
Plus, I hate the fireforming brass issue. Unless you have a fireforming system, or separate rifle, half your barrel life is forming brass.
Now Greg hits the nail on the head. I think the Swede is one of the most underappreciated, under utilized 6.5 calibers out there. Tons of quality brass that's inexpensive and excellent performance. If it wouldn't have been for my 1:9 barrel twist, my current 6.5x284 would be a Swede. Yes, there is the LA vs. SA issue which I personally think is BS, but NotAGuru built a Swede on a SA so it can be done.
Talk to Terry Cross. </div></div>
Within 50fps is in my book 'comparable'. Obviously the 65x284 has an edge in capacity. I have not been able to get 4350 and 4831 to give me 3000fps in a 25" barrel with the accuracy I want. The accuracy node for the AI seems to be around 2900+. Most guys that I know that are getting 3000fps in the 65x284 without pressure issues are running 28" plus barrels. Terry Cross was getting 2930fps with the 139 Scenars in a 26" barrel (1/3moa) with his 260AI. Out of curiosity is anybody getting those velocities in a 26" barreled 65x284 with that kind of precision? If so, what load? If I could duplicate this with my 65x284 I would have no reason to change.
Also you are not spending half of your barrel life fire forming. If you can reload cases 10 times and it cost you 100 bullets to get there that's 1000 rnds for every 100 spent, not 1/2.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Within 50fps is in my book 'comparable'. Obviously the 65x284 has an edge in capacity. I have not been able to get 4350 and 4831 to give me 3000fps in a 25" barrel with the accuracy I want. The accuracy node for the AI seems to be around 2900+. Most guys that I know that are getting 3000fps in the 65x284 without pressure issues are running 28" plus barrels. Terry Cross was getting 2930fps with the 139 Scenars in a 26" barrel (1/3moa) with his 260AI. Out of curiosity is anybody getting those velocities in a 26" barreled 65x284 with that kind of precision? If so, what load? If I could duplicate this with my 65x284 I would have no reason to change.
Also you are not spending half of your barrel life fire forming. If you can reload cases 10 times and it cost you 100 bullets to get there that's 1000 rnds for every 100 spent, not 1/2.</div></div>
50fps is "comparable" if you want to take the max load for the 260ai and the min. load for the 65x284. That's like saying my 308 can match my 300wm with 190gn SMK if I only shoot the WM at 2600fps. This discussion didn't originate out of any parameters i.e., barrel length. The original point was how does the 260AI compare to the 65x284 for performance and barrel wear. They barely meet, plain and simple.
With regards to performance, it of course you need a long barrel with the 65x284, that's one of the reasons it does so well. I'm not sure what barrel length really has to do with the OP's question.
And precision is irrelevant from the standpoint that a known custom builder is going to give you an accurate rifle. Terry's 260AI is going to shoot just as well as Terry's 65x284. Besides, I think the 65x284 has proven itself over and over that it is an extremely accurate cartridge.
Also, I would like to point out that the 260AI is such a kick-ass cartridge that Terry Cross stopped shooting it and went back to a standard 260.
But, regardless, if you want a 260AI, build a 260AI. If you want to fireform cases, fireform cases, if you want 65x284 performance, get a 65x284.
Good Luck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Within 50fps is in my book 'comparable'. Obviously the 65x284 has an edge in capacity. I have not been able to get 4350 and 4831 to give me 3000fps in a 25" barrel with the accuracy I want. The accuracy node for the AI seems to be around 2900+. Most guys that I know that are getting 3000fps in the 65x284 without pressure issues are running 28" plus barrels. Terry Cross was getting 2930fps with the 139 Scenars in a 26" barrel (1/3moa) with his 260AI. Out of curiosity is anybody getting those velocities in a 26" barreled 65x284 with that kind of precision? If so, what load? If I could duplicate this with my 65x284 I would have no reason to change.
Also you are not spending half of your barrel life fire forming. If you can reload cases 10 times and it cost you 100 bullets to get there that's 1000 rnds for every 100 spent, not 1/2.</div></div>
50fps is "comparable" if you want to take the max load for the 260ai and the min. load for the 65x284. That's like saying my 308 can match my 300wm with 190gn SMK if I only shoot the WM at 2600fps. This discussion didn't originate out of any parameters i.e., barrel length. The original point was how does the 260AI compare to the 65x284 for performance and barrel wear. They barely meet, plain and simple.
With regards to performance, it of course you need a long barrel with the 65x284, that's one of the reasons it does so well. I'm not sure what barrel length really has to do with the OP's question.
And precision is irrelevant from the standpoint that a known custom builder is going to give you an accurate rifle. Terry's 260AI is going to shoot just as well as Terry's 65x284. Besides, I think the 65x284 has proven itself over and over that it is an extremely accurate cartridge.
Also, I would like to point out that the 260AI is such a kick-ass cartridge that Terry Cross stopped shooting it and went back to a standard 260.
But, regardless, if you want a 260AI, build a 260AI. If you want to fireform cases, fireform cases, if you want 65x284 performance, get a 65x284.
Good Luck
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
My viewpoint toward AI mods is pretty simple. Why?
I think theres a lot of commercial chambering options out there now, many of which rather easily overlap AI mods. Once there was more use for them, now, I think maybe less so.
Over the past few years I've had several strong urges to try wildcats. But further research has revealed a commercial chambering that very nicely serves any perceived needs.
Another thing about AI's is that I think they tend to get run on the hotter side. If full tilt boogie AI loads were not needed or wanted, there'd be little point to doing them in the first place. Therefore, I have somewhat of a tendency to think of them as barrel burners.
Greg
My viewpoint toward AI mods is pretty simple. Why?
I think theres a lot of commercial chambering options out there now, many of which rather easily overlap AI mods. Once there was more use for them, now, I think maybe less so.
Over the past few years I've had several strong urges to try wildcats. But further research has revealed a commercial chambering that very nicely serves any perceived needs.
Another thing about AI's is that I think they tend to get run on the hotter side. If full tilt boogie AI loads were not needed or wanted, there'd be little point to doing them in the first place. Therefore, I have somewhat of a tendency to think of them as barrel burners.
Greg
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 308 Winchester parent case already has minimum taper. Improving it yields maybe 100 FPS if your lucky. Your chasing a chimera thinking that Improving a 260 Rem will get you anywhere near a 6.5x284. The 284 based case starts with a near 15% advantage in case capacity over the standard 260. Improving the 260 by 5% will not get you even close with like pressures.
Of course if you want it, please build it. But improving a 308 based anything is a waste of good brass, powder and bullet. Your money your choice.....
Bob</div></div>
I think your pretty much right on Bob, I also think to keep
at 65K psi or below your gain is really only 50 to 75 fps.
Most AI users including myself have to load into the 70k + range to get in another 100 fps or so. I don't think that's a good thing. There goes your barrel life with higher throat temps.
You do get less brass trimming with the AI version though.
I think I would rather load down a 6.5-284 to a lower pressure 2,900 fps rather than load up a 260 AI to obviously higher pressures.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 308 Winchester parent case already has minimum taper. Improving it yields maybe 100 FPS if your lucky. Your chasing a chimera thinking that Improving a 260 Rem will get you anywhere near a 6.5x284. The 284 based case starts with a near 15% advantage in case capacity over the standard 260. Improving the 260 by 5% will not get you even close with like pressures.
Of course if you want it, please build it. But improving a 308 based anything is a waste of good brass, powder and bullet. Your money your choice.....
Bob</div></div>
I think your pretty much right on Bob, I also think to keep
at 65K psi or below your gain is really only 50 to 75 fps.
Most AI users including myself have to load into the 70k + range to get in another 100 fps or so. I don't think that's a good thing. There goes your barrel life with higher throat temps.
You do get less brass trimming with the AI version though.
I think I would rather load down a 6.5-284 to a lower pressure 2,900 fps rather than load up a 260 AI to obviously higher pressures.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
I personally would never build an AI caliber when there's another cartridge available that can match or beat it's performance...
Fluck fire forming brass.....
I personally would never build an AI caliber when there's another cartridge available that can match or beat it's performance...
Fluck fire forming brass.....
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Ok fellas it seems pretty 50/50 as far acceptance of the ai 260. Let me ask this. If i go with the 260AI and i want to use my Lapua 243 brass and neck it up will i have to turn the donut off the neck, or will the AI version of the 260 not have a donut issue? I know when you go with the standard 260rem and use 243 brass and neck up part of the shoulder becomes the neck, and you have to turn that donut off. With the AI version having less neck will there be a donut issue to tend with? Lee
Ok fellas it seems pretty 50/50 as far acceptance of the ai 260. Let me ask this. If i go with the 260AI and i want to use my Lapua 243 brass and neck it up will i have to turn the donut off the neck, or will the AI version of the 260 not have a donut issue? I know when you go with the standard 260rem and use 243 brass and neck up part of the shoulder becomes the neck, and you have to turn that donut off. With the AI version having less neck will there be a donut issue to tend with? Lee
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Not being a smartass, so don't take it that way, but why would you want to neck up .243 brass rather than just buy .260 brass? It's not like you're ever gonna not need .243 brass ( unless you've given up on the .243).
The only time I'd want to fluck with brass that much is if I had to b/c it wasn't offered. Main reason I say is b/c in the grand scheme of a rifle build, brass is one of the cheapest parts.
Not being a smartass, so don't take it that way, but why would you want to neck up .243 brass rather than just buy .260 brass? It's not like you're ever gonna not need .243 brass ( unless you've given up on the .243).
The only time I'd want to fluck with brass that much is if I had to b/c it wasn't offered. Main reason I say is b/c in the grand scheme of a rifle build, brass is one of the cheapest parts.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
The days of your only option for brass being Remington or necking up/down are long gone. They have good, quality 260 brass now aka Nosler.
The days of your only option for brass being Remington or necking up/down are long gone. They have good, quality 260 brass now aka Nosler.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Lee,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many ways to skin a cat
If your looking for 6.5-284 performance
6mmRem AI necked up to 6.5
GAPS new 6mm necked up would rock
Sharp shoulder and long neck would lend to better throat life also </div></div>
^What he said!
I'd really think about the 6mm Crusader (from GAP) necked up. It was my first thought when I read Georges' post;
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1014170#Post1014170
Hope this helps (or sows more seeds of confusion!)
Neil
Lee,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many ways to skin a cat
If your looking for 6.5-284 performance
6mmRem AI necked up to 6.5
GAPS new 6mm necked up would rock
Sharp shoulder and long neck would lend to better throat life also </div></div>
^What he said!
I'd really think about the 6mm Crusader (from GAP) necked up. It was my first thought when I read Georges' post;
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1014170#Post1014170
Hope this helps (or sows more seeds of confusion!)
Neil
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> With the AI version having less neck will there be a donut issue to tend with? Lee </div></div>
The neck isn't any shorter. At least I don't think it is.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> With the AI version having less neck will there be a donut issue to tend with? Lee </div></div>
The neck isn't any shorter. At least I don't think it is.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
My buddy is going to look at the prints to be sure, but it sure appears to be to the naked eye.
Why not use this fine quality 243 Lapua brass i already have thats not doing anything but collecting dust. I personally do not like the 243. I have other 6mm chamberings that i like much more so no i will most likely not be using it any time soon.
My buddy is going to look at the prints to be sure, but it sure appears to be to the naked eye.
Why not use this fine quality 243 Lapua brass i already have thats not doing anything but collecting dust. I personally do not like the 243. I have other 6mm chamberings that i like much more so no i will most likely not be using it any time soon.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Put that Lapua .243 brass in the Classifieds with a fair price & it'll be gone before ya know it...
Put that Lapua .243 brass in the Classifieds with a fair price & it'll be gone before ya know it...
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Does anyone know if the donut issue will be deleted if i go AI with the 260. I am going to use the 243 Lapua brass i have regardless. I just dont know if i need to order the turning tools. Lee
Does anyone know if the donut issue will be deleted if i go AI with the 260. I am going to use the 243 Lapua brass i have regardless. I just dont know if i need to order the turning tools. Lee
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know if the donut issue will be deleted if i go AI with the 260. I am going to use the 243 Lapua brass i have regardless. I just dont know if i need to order the turning tools. Lee</div></div>
i don't think you'll have to worry.....the brass may only stick around for 3 loadings....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know if the donut issue will be deleted if i go AI with the 260. I am going to use the 243 Lapua brass i have regardless. I just dont know if i need to order the turning tools. Lee</div></div>
i don't think you'll have to worry.....the brass may only stick around for 3 loadings....
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Well I'll jump in here again, fire forming for the 260AI is not a waste at all, I shot an F-class comp using virgin fire forming loads and was able to take 2nd place with it. So they will shoot very respectably even when forming.
Regarding, necking up 243 brass instead of using 260 brass was to be able to use higher quality brass. I have not tried that I have only used 260 Rem brass. I would say that the quality of 260 Rem brass has gone up, by no means am I saying its Lapua but until Lapua makes 260 brass your stuck.
mike
Well I'll jump in here again, fire forming for the 260AI is not a waste at all, I shot an F-class comp using virgin fire forming loads and was able to take 2nd place with it. So they will shoot very respectably even when forming.
Regarding, necking up 243 brass instead of using 260 brass was to be able to use higher quality brass. I have not tried that I have only used 260 Rem brass. I would say that the quality of 260 Rem brass has gone up, by no means am I saying its Lapua but until Lapua makes 260 brass your stuck.
mike
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
Norma makes 260 brass.
Midway has them $102.99 per 100.
I plan on buying and forming these. Good experiences with Norma brass.
Norma makes 260 brass.
Midway has them $102.99 per 100.
I plan on buying and forming these. Good experiences with Norma brass.
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">I can give some actual data on the capacity differences. I have had 8 rifles in .260 AI and have built more than 25 from the reamers I have. I built my very first one in 1979 while in gunsmith school. I corresponded with Ackley by mail about the first one. He even sent me some load data from the Prowley Ballistic Calculator, they were way too hot.
Here are pictures of the before and after cases.
This .260 case before fire forming weighs 160.9 grs empty.
This fire formed .260 AI case weighs 160.5 grs empty.
The plain .260 weighs 212.3 grs full of water.
The .260 AI weighs 217.3 grs full of water.
The water weights for these cases are –
212.3 – 160.9 = 51.4 grs for the standard .260
217.3 – 160.5 = 56.8 grs for the .260 AI
This gives a difference of 5.4 grs or 10.5%.
Sorry for the bad pictures. For what it's worth, the .260 AI performs great and case life is terrific, i.e. - 10 + loadings.
Bob</span></span></span>
<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">I can give some actual data on the capacity differences. I have had 8 rifles in .260 AI and have built more than 25 from the reamers I have. I built my very first one in 1979 while in gunsmith school. I corresponded with Ackley by mail about the first one. He even sent me some load data from the Prowley Ballistic Calculator, they were way too hot.
Here are pictures of the before and after cases.
This .260 case before fire forming weighs 160.9 grs empty.
This fire formed .260 AI case weighs 160.5 grs empty.
The plain .260 weighs 212.3 grs full of water.
The .260 AI weighs 217.3 grs full of water.
The water weights for these cases are –
212.3 – 160.9 = 51.4 grs for the standard .260
217.3 – 160.5 = 56.8 grs for the .260 AI
This gives a difference of 5.4 grs or 10.5%.
Sorry for the bad pictures. For what it's worth, the .260 AI performs great and case life is terrific, i.e. - 10 + loadings.
Bob</span></span></span>
Re: 260AI Lets talk!!
I think Terry Cross gave up 260AI in favor of 260Rem because the 150fps improvement wasn't important and he was losing cases on the field during a match. It's better to lose a cheap R-P 260Rem case than one in which you've invested in case forming.
I think Terry Cross gave up 260AI in favor of 260Rem because the 150fps improvement wasn't important and he was losing cases on the field during a match. It's better to lose a cheap R-P 260Rem case than one in which you've invested in case forming.
