277 Sig Fury

[Shawn1492]

.277 SIG Fury Demystified

The speculation about this mysterious .277 SIG Fury has practically broken the internet. GunsAmerica spoke directly with an authoritative representative from SIG to get the scoop and figure out exactly what's going on with this cartridge.

www.gunsamerica.com

3000 FPS 140gr 6.8

 

[Supersubes]

Imagine the pressures. Wowza!

Edit: 80,000 psi.

 

[cageli]

Regardless, very impressive step Sig has taken. I need one, period.

 

[Steel+Killer]

Anyone think a AI action could safely handle the pressures of this new cartridge? If so I can't wait for a simple barrel change on my AX.

 

[1moaoff]

Let the powder race begin!

 

[TonyTheTiger]

277 Sig Furry? Gotta work on them thread titles..

 

[Teach Me Sensei]

Furry....makes your hair on the arm rise

Title makes sense

 

[Thunderhorse]

I'm interested to see what the weight will be like for a rifle with an action that will handle repeated and automatic fire from an 80k PSI cartridge. Also what the recoil will be like. I don't really care how good it looks in an animal costume.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I still don't get the Army's obsession with .277 bore cartridges. It seems like a completely bass-ackwards choice with all of the modern 6 and 6.5mm projectiles out there.

 

[stello1001]

I can't imagine this being real. Pushing a 140 from a SA with a 16" barrel @3,000+ FPS. Perhaps the technology is in Sig's hands and they will prove their numbers to be accurate. If so, if like to get in on that. Imagine the ballistics of a .27 cal 140gn pill launched from longer barrel bolt action...

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I can't imagine this being real. Pushing a 140 from a SA with a 16" barrel @3,000+ FPS. Perhaps the technology is in Sig's hands and they will prove their numbers to be accurate. If so, if like to get in on that. Imagine the ballistics of a .27 cal 140gn pill launched from longer barrel bolt action...

When you're pushing a (claimed) chamber pressure of 80k PSI, then stupidly high MVs tend to follow - assuming the barrel or bolt doesn't let go.

 

[superde]

After a year or so, to see if they blow up, looks like I might be getting the perfect truck gun for pigs/coyotes. A 16" barreled folder with suppressor that shoots decent with plenty of thump sounds perfect.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

And just think...Sigs ammo is not the current lead for that NGSW ammunition proposal, others are topping it by a pretty far margin.

We (Hoplite Arms) have been testing higher pressure cartridge systems for a couple years now in which we specifically designed a receiver system to handle and operate at the increased pressures. What we have found so far is at 132k we have no damage or lose of function with the weapon system, at 151k (failure point of the brass case) we had to cut the barrel out of the breech cylinder in order to check the bolt face...not even a broken extractor.

We are now testing bimetal 2 piece case designs along with some thicker designed RCC cases.

The pressure "limits" the industry currently runs at is decades out of date in regards to weapon designs, tolerances, capabilities, etc etc.....SAAMI has been petitioned for years to "raise" their scale but seems to like the 1940s era pressure thresholds....luckily SAAMI is a voluntary organization

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[stello1001]

When you're pushing a (claimed) chamber pressure of 80k PSI, then stupidly high MVs tend to follow - assuming the barrel or bolt doesn't let go.

I'd imagine that barrel life would be relatively low but they are also claiming that whatever we think or assume, barrel life wise, is likely to be incorrect and that it is actually much better. All these claims and forecasts, they're making it seem like they were able to develop a new round that checks off all the boxes. The better part of me wants to think that somewhere along the line, there has to be some tradeoff. I hope I'm wrong though.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I'd imagine that barrel life would be relatively low but they are also claiming that whatever we think or assume, barrel life wise, is likely to be incorrect and that it is actually much better. All these claims and forecasts, they're making it seem like they were able to develop a new round that checks off all the boxes. The better part of me wants to think that somewhere along the line, there has to be some tradeoff. I hope I'm wrong though.

I think expecting a trade-off is pretty normal, and I would agree. The article also claimed some kind of new barrel treatment or similar to help with the barrel life. My skepticism is running pretty hard right now, honestly.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

What we have found so far is at 132k we have no damage or lose of function with the weapon system, at 151k (failure point of the brass case) we had to cut the barrel out of the breech cylinder in order to check the bolt face...not even a broken extractor.

Ho. Lee. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.........

That's bonkers.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

The Hoplite and AI would handle this. However, I don't think the average Savage 110 would be a good candidate.

I just wish they would release info on the bullet. I dont know of a .277 I'd be interested in shooting past normal hunting ranges that's on the market right now. I'm interested if they have put some real R&D on the bullet they've selected/created.

 

[TxWelder35]

3400 FPS out of a long barrel 6.5 in a short action? Yes please.

 

[TxWelder35]

Hi,

And just think...Sigs ammo is not the current lead for that NGSW ammunition proposal, others are topping it by a pretty far margin.

We (Hoplite Arms) have been testing higher pressure cartridge systems for a couple years now in which we specifically designed a receiver system to handle and operate at the increased pressures. What we have found so far is at 132k we have no damage or lose of function with the weapon system, at 151k (failure point of the brass case) we had to cut the barrel out of the breech cylinder in order to check the bolt face...not even a broken extractor.

We are now testing bimetal 2 piece case designs along with some thicker designed RCC cases.

The pressure "limits" the industry currently runs at is decades out of date in regards to weapon designs, tolerances, capabilities, etc etc.....SAAMI has been petitioned for years to "raise" their scale but seems to like the 1940s era pressure thresholds....luckily SAAMI is a voluntary organization

Sincerely,
Theis

Was thinking about y’all new ammo when I read the article. How similar are the cases for your ammo and sigs? Are y’all just hot rodding the cases harder than sig is?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

We are not utilizing any "standard" cartridge case dimensions for our HP cartridges....So they cannot be mistakenly put into a rifle that cannot hold those pressures.......gotta love insurance and lawyers ? .

We are doing 2 "Phases" of HP....
Phase 1 will be with normal 1 piece case designs but with thicker brass and lathe turned; not cup and draw.
Phase 2 will be with bimetal 2 piece case designs that thread together instead of the internal clip that Sig is using.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[TxWelder35]

Hi,

We are not utilizing any "standard" cartridge case dimensions for our HP cartridges....So they cannot be mistakenly put into a rifle that cannot hold those pressures.......gotta love insurance and lawyers ? .

We are doing 2 "Phases" of HP....
Phase 1 will be with normal 1 piece case designs but with thicker brass and lathe turned; not cup and draw.
Phase 2 will be with bimetal 2 piece case designs that thread together instead of the internal clip that Sig is using.

Sincerely,
Theis

Really looking forward to what you have to offer. Definitely going to be a customer. What have you guys seen in barrel life? Any insight into the pixie dust coating they are referring to in the article?

 

[Steel head]

It’s nice to see some advancements in pressure technology.
Why big green is so hot for 277 is kinda odd but army thinking often is a bit goofy and stubborn.

Can’t wait for 7mm Short hoplite ultra magnum!

 

[lte82]

Isn’t the only potential issue bolt thrust? If the action is good with a wsm or lapua / norma mag @ 60k psi, it shouldn’t have any issues with a standard case @ 80k psi.

 

[THEIS]

Really looking forward to what you have to offer. Definitely going to be a customer. What have you guys seen in barrel life? Any insight into the pixie dust coating they are referring to in the article?

Hi,

THANKS!! We are still testing barrel life with various projectile designs.

I know Sig has tons upon tons of money but the idea/marketing that they somehow have a barrel coating to do what they are saying..YET entire rifle is to retail at what...under $1600 is raising every alarm in my body!!

Chrome lining the chamber and throat area would be great, but I have not found a company on this planet that will guarantee the tolerances needed so that the precision barrel does not become machine gun barrel accuracy.

Then there is progressive bore/lands/grooves technology but that is still in its infancy and SUPER expensive and requires very specific "expanding" rear monolithics to seal and take the squeeze....realistically IMO that is 2-3 years out.

IMO the (Immediately available) key to barrel life in HP cartridges is being able to use a faster igniting powder to ramp the pressure curve up while at same time to have lower burn temperature and shorter burn dwell time per say....
Much different that the normal method of pumping more volume of slower burning powder.....

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

and requires very specific "expanding" rear monolithics to seal and take the squeeze

So modern, monlithic Minie ball?

 

[THEIS]

So modern, monlithic Minie ball?

Hi,

More of a back drilled monolithic in which the rear section expands to seal in the larger diameter of the progressive bore while taking the "squeeze" down to the smaller diameter of the progressive bore.

Similar to the back drilled projectiles Jim Boatright is working on.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[lte82]

I know Sig has tons upon tons of money but the idea/marketing that they somehow have a barrel coating to do what they are saying..YET entire rifle is to retail at what...under $1600 is raising every alarm in my body!!

IMO the (Immediately available) key to barrel life in HP cartridges is being able to use a faster igniting powder to ramp the pressure curve up while at same time to have lower burn temperature and lower burn dwell time per say....
Much different that the normal method of pumping more volume of slower burning powder.....

AR Comp is giving extended barrel life in the 223 / 308. And if you do a quick comparison vs Varget in a dasher you almost double the barrel life on that excel barrel life calculator. Low temp powder with fast burn rate and steeper pressure curve, yes still produces decent velocity.

Nitriding is also proven to extend barrel life by a lot, and isn't all that pricey. Some of the local high power guys have WAY over 5000 rounds on their nitrided barrels and they still shoot great. I think one is over 10k at this point and still shoots cleans at 600, which is probably 3x what most standard barrels are doing. All on a button rifled barrel!

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Yes, fully aware of nitriding but Sig is saying a coating so in reality that should not be nitriding they are referring to since it is not a coating...

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Hi,

Yes, fully aware of nitriding but Sig is saying a coating so in reality that should not be nitriding they are referring to since it is not a coating...

Sincerely,
Theis

Yeah but a surprising number of companies that should know better insist on calling nitride a coating. Just saying.

 

[TxWelder35]

Hi,

THANKS!! We are still testing barrel life with various projectile designs.

I know Sig has tons upon tons of money but the idea/marketing that they somehow have a barrel coating to do what they are saying..YET entire rifle is to retail at what...under $1600 is raising every alarm in my body!!

Chrome lining the chamber and throat area would be great, but I have not found a company on this planet that will guarantee the tolerances needed so that the precision barrel does not become machine gun barrel accuracy.

Then there is progressive bore/lands/grooves technology but that is still in its infancy and SUPER expensive and requires very specific "expanding" rear monolithics to seal and take the squeeze....realistically IMO that is 2-3 years out.

IMO the (Immediately available) key to barrel life in HP cartridges is being able to use a faster igniting powder to ramp the pressure curve up while at same time to have lower burn temperature and shorter burn dwell time per say....
Much different that the normal method of pumping more volume of slower burning powder.....

Sincerely,
Theis

Thanks for a good explanation. Have y’all experimented with Nitrided barrels?

 

[Shawn1492]

I wonder what the uncorking pressure wave of 80k psi will feel like just 16 inches from your face? Probably won’t have many friends at the range if you put a brake on it.

 

[deersniper]

Hi,

And just think...Sigs ammo is not the current lead for that NGSW ammunition proposal, others are topping it by a pretty far margin.

We (Hoplite Arms) have been testing higher pressure cartridge systems for a couple years now in which we specifically designed a receiver system to handle and operate at the increased pressures. What we have found so far is at 132k we have no damage or lose of function with the weapon system, at 151k (failure point of the brass case) we had to cut the barrel out of the breech cylinder in order to check the bolt face...not even a broken extractor.

We are now testing bimetal 2 piece case designs along with some thicker designed RCC cases.

The pressure "limits" the industry currently runs at is decades out of date in regards to weapon designs, tolerances, capabilities, etc etc.....SAAMI has been petitioned for years to "raise" their scale but seems to like the 1940s era pressure thresholds....luckily SAAMI is a voluntary organization

Sincerely,
Theis

Good info! Any ideas on if AIs and Desert Techs might have the strength to use this with just a barrel swap? Thanks

 

[deersniper]

Hope ammo isn’t super expensive.

 

[DOA]

Hope ammo isn’t super expensive.

I'm sure it will be $2.00 + per round.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Hi,

THANKS!! We are still testing barrel life with various projectile designs.

I know Sig has tons upon tons of money but the idea/marketing that they somehow have a barrel coating to do what they are saying..YET entire rifle is to retail at what...under $1600 is raising every alarm in my body!!

Chrome lining the chamber and throat area would be great, but I have not found a company on this planet that will guarantee the tolerances needed so that the precision barrel does not become machine gun barrel accuracy.

Then there is progressive bore/lands/grooves technology but that is still in its infancy and SUPER expensive and requires very specific "expanding" rear monolithics to seal and take the squeeze....realistically IMO that is 2-3 years out.

IMO the (Immediately available) key to barrel life in HP cartridges is being able to use a faster igniting powder to ramp the pressure curve up while at same time to have lower burn temperature and shorter burn dwell time per say....
Much different that the normal method of pumping more volume of slower burning powder.....

Sincerely,
Theis

What about the previous experiments on larger bore calibers where a small amount of lubricant was put on the bearing surface of the projectile (I think the 25mm cannon on the Bradley had some work done on it and Lowlight mentioned it several years back when talking about some of the bigger bore stuff he was doing ELR work with)?

Probably a bit messy to deal with on a regular basis, but for folks doing bolt action rifles and target shooting, it may work?

 

[Supersubes]

I wonder what the uncorking pressure wave of 80k psi will feel like just 16 inches from your face? Probably won’t have many friends at the range if you put a brake on it.

Agreed. Suppressor manufacturers are probably gonna need to evaluate it as well.

 

[theLBC]

merry christmas

now everyone that belittles folks running old school .308 needs a new rifle?
i don't think 80k means all that much if the rifle is designed for it.

 

[LawnMM]

600rd barrel life, what's not to love? ??‍

 

[Shawn1492]

600rd barrel life, what's not to love? ??‍

The article said significantly more barrel life than you would expect. So hopefully 800 round barrel life ?
But really the round was designed for belt feed machine guns, so would need to be in the thousands to be viable at all.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Big difference in precision rifle barrel compared to barrel on the prototype NGSW rifles.

Chrome lining the NGSW rifle barrels are easy to do and keep within accuracy requirements.

@TxWelder35 yes we have messed with melonite barrels. It does tend to increase barrel life as mentioned!!

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[10ring'r]

Sounds like one more option for us shooters/hunters. I can't imagine it being cost effective, with how the cases have to be manufactured, especially if SIG d/n get the Mil. contract. I guess we'll have to wait and see what testing shows. Mac

 

[jaywhite97]

im interested to see it at shot show and some of the buyng group shows.

 

[LawnMM]

The article said significantly more barrel life than you would expect. So hopefully 800 round barrel life ?
But really the round was designed for belt feed machine guns, so would need to be in the thousands to be viable at all.

They can say it's whatever they want, there's no free lunch.

 

[CHEYTAC]

Glad I'm older and wiser

 

[Shawn1492]

Glad I'm older and wiser

Well I’m older and my back hurts, so I’ll wait at least three months before jumping on this band wagon.

 

[702lineman]

I'm glad to see a company coming out with new products that aren't just same gay shit, but with sprinkles on top. Too many new bullshit flavors that do the exact same thing the last one did, but with a twist.

Seen quite a few manufacturers(mainly ar15) that are dropping the ball bad trying to get into the bolt gun game. This I like though

 

[TACC]

80K psi through a barrel gonna be fun if your the next to the shooter with the muzzle break on that one

 

[GONE BAD]

I seen a resent gun show where they were showing off a new military weapon. I thought it was a new 50 cal.
It was mounted on a vehicle with a fairly long barrel. When asked about effective range, they said something like 4000 meters. When asked about muzzle velocity, they said that was classified and was left at that.

So we know anything is possible. It is, after all, the 21 century ?

 

[Morrigan]

When the .264 Sig Fury comes out, I will have one.

 

[Kayakfish1]