Why is everyone shooting a 308 when they could have a slick 6.5 or 7mm high bc projo? I realize ammo avail etc but I fear there are technical reasons. Anyone?
.284 win ar-10
- Thread starter toddcdozer
- Start date
Re: .284 win ar-10
284 or 6.5-284 in an AR-10 isn't going to work reall well. Number of reasons.
Want a 6.5mm or 7mm in AR platform?
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5X47 Lapua
7 Creedmoor
260
7-08
Using a DPMS/Knights based magazine, I'd suggest going with Creedmoor for best overall performance.
284 or 6.5-284 in an AR-10 isn't going to work reall well. Number of reasons.
Want a 6.5mm or 7mm in AR platform?
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5X47 Lapua
7 Creedmoor
260
7-08
Using a DPMS/Knights based magazine, I'd suggest going with Creedmoor for best overall performance.
Re: .284 win ar-10
308 is is proven: I have hit reliably to 900 meters. Ammo is easy to find, ballistics are known, etc.
It is easier: 308/7.62x51 is also a .mil standard.
BMT
308 is is proven: I have hit reliably to 900 meters. Ammo is easy to find, ballistics are known, etc.
It is easier: 308/7.62x51 is also a .mil standard.
BMT
Re: .284 win ar-10
7mm-08? Are the reasons on a 284 insurmountable or just not common? Same bolt face + approx length.
7mm-08? Are the reasons on a 284 insurmountable or just not common? Same bolt face + approx length.
Re: .284 win ar-10
Mag box isn`t long enough for 284. There is way better cartridges out with better velocity and BC than 308 but the good thing about 308 is ammo is everywhere. What about the 7mm-08?
Mag box isn`t long enough for 284. There is way better cartridges out with better velocity and BC than 308 but the good thing about 308 is ammo is everywhere. What about the 7mm-08?
Re: .284 win ar-10
Accuracy Systems worth a hoot? they build them. Im just looking for a ton better BC than i'll get from a 308.And to me 900 is close range. Where I hunt a 308 will make you want to pull your hair out. Our avg wind speed is over 20 mph per the weather service. Highest wind speed in america for a city.
Accuracy Systems worth a hoot? they build them. Im just looking for a ton better BC than i'll get from a 308.And to me 900 is close range. Where I hunt a 308 will make you want to pull your hair out. Our avg wind speed is over 20 mph per the weather service. Highest wind speed in america for a city.
Re: .284 win ar-10
7-08 would be better than a 308. I could care less about ammo its why god invented rcbs. A 7 rsaum might be the way also if the 284 is the same $$$. I need the ultimate bc and velocity I can get for deer and yotes. I beleive in hit em hard and pick up the peices. This will be mainly a truck gun and carry gun. If Im sitting a stand itll be with an edge or 375 chey.
7-08 would be better than a 308. I could care less about ammo its why god invented rcbs. A 7 rsaum might be the way also if the 284 is the same $$$. I need the ultimate bc and velocity I can get for deer and yotes. I beleive in hit em hard and pick up the peices. This will be mainly a truck gun and carry gun. If Im sitting a stand itll be with an edge or 375 chey.
Re: .284 win ar-10
Larger diameter body of the 284 is going to create issues. I have an AR-10 in 243AI and blown out body made it harder to get to feed reliably. 284 you have same issue but worse as longer body and even larger diameter.
Can you make a 6.5-284 or 284 work in an AR platform, probably. Not worth the hassle and you'll not exceed what a 260 or 7-08 does without special gyrations.
6.5-284 or 284 you'll need to run slower burn rate powders (compared to 308), port pressure goes up and you have a lot more gas too.
Larger diameter body of the 284 is going to create issues. I have an AR-10 in 243AI and blown out body made it harder to get to feed reliably. 284 you have same issue but worse as longer body and even larger diameter.
Can you make a 6.5-284 or 284 work in an AR platform, probably. Not worth the hassle and you'll not exceed what a 260 or 7-08 does without special gyrations.
6.5-284 or 284 you'll need to run slower burn rate powders (compared to 308), port pressure goes up and you have a lot more gas too.
Re: .284 win ar-10
6 Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, or 7 Creedmoor for a gasser.
6 and 6.5 you can get factory brass. 7 is a simple neck up.
After doing my 243AI and 300 WSM with rebated rim AR-10s, I'd stick to 308 sized case, or smaller, for parent case.
7-08 is my next large frame AR caliber.
6 Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, or 7 Creedmoor for a gasser.
6 and 6.5 you can get factory brass. 7 is a simple neck up.
After doing my 243AI and 300 WSM with rebated rim AR-10s, I'd stick to 308 sized case, or smaller, for parent case.
7-08 is my next large frame AR caliber.
Re: .284 win ar-10
<span style="text-decoration: underline"> </span> Thanx for the replies I cant beleive the 7-08 isnt more popular in the ar. The 308 is a fine paper puncher but Im a hunter. Yeah itll work but so will a 22lr.
<span style="text-decoration: underline"> </span> Thanx for the replies I cant beleive the 7-08 isnt more popular in the ar. The 308 is a fine paper puncher but Im a hunter. Yeah itll work but so will a 22lr.
Re: .284 win ar-10
I dig the benefits of an AR10 but I think people are starting to see them as a mythical beast that is the end all in LR shooting. They are kind of a jack of all trades/master of none. You can not run the really large capacity flat shooting magnums out of it and even the fast 6mm and 6.5mm need a long barrel and moderately reloaded ammo.
Sounds like you would be really happy with a smooth running bolt gun with maybe a suppressor to get a decent followup shot on un-rattled prey.
Not writing anything new.
If you find the end all answer to "Long action magnum performance in a reliable ar10" please share it with the rest of the class.
Ern
I dig the benefits of an AR10 but I think people are starting to see them as a mythical beast that is the end all in LR shooting. They are kind of a jack of all trades/master of none. You can not run the really large capacity flat shooting magnums out of it and even the fast 6mm and 6.5mm need a long barrel and moderately reloaded ammo.
Sounds like you would be really happy with a smooth running bolt gun with maybe a suppressor to get a decent followup shot on un-rattled prey.
Not writing anything new.
If you find the end all answer to "Long action magnum performance in a reliable ar10" please share it with the rest of the class.
Ern
Re: .284 win ar-10
A friend of mine had a 26" Sako hammer-forged 6.5x284 barrel made for him, to go in an Armalite AR10. It's a laser, especially with the 139gr Scenar, although he does have to seat deeply into the case to meet COAL from the mag.
I've shot with it from a 70ft-high artillery observation tower in 15-20mph wind & rain at IPSC-size reactive targets at 1130m, and had no problem putting it down repetitively.
I personally prefer the .260 Rem in the AR10, which has the same shoulder angle of the .308, COAL, etc. I have no problems with seating depth with any of the VLD-type projectiles, to include the 139gr Scenar, 140gr VLD, 142gr SMK, 140gr Match Burner, or my favorite, the 130gr VLD. I get twice the barrel life of a 6.5x284 as well, with little practical performance loss.
A friend of mine had a 26" Sako hammer-forged 6.5x284 barrel made for him, to go in an Armalite AR10. It's a laser, especially with the 139gr Scenar, although he does have to seat deeply into the case to meet COAL from the mag.
I've shot with it from a 70ft-high artillery observation tower in 15-20mph wind & rain at IPSC-size reactive targets at 1130m, and had no problem putting it down repetitively.
I personally prefer the .260 Rem in the AR10, which has the same shoulder angle of the .308, COAL, etc. I have no problems with seating depth with any of the VLD-type projectiles, to include the 139gr Scenar, 140gr VLD, 142gr SMK, 140gr Match Burner, or my favorite, the 130gr VLD. I get twice the barrel life of a 6.5x284 as well, with little practical performance loss.
Re: .284 win ar-10
Here you go:
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Here you go:
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Re: .284 win ar-10
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fng23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dig the benefits of an AR10 but I think people are starting to see them as a mythical beast that is the end all in LR shooting. They are kind of a jack of all trades/master of none. You can not run the really large capacity flat shooting magnums out of it and even the fast 6mm and 6.5mm need a long barrel and moderately reloaded ammo.
Sounds like you would be really happy with a smooth running bolt gun with maybe a suppressor to get a decent followup shot on un-rattled prey.
Not writing anything new.
If you find the end all answer to "Long action magnum performance in a reliable ar10" please share it with the rest of the class.
Ern </div></div>I was just looking at an ar for the speed of reload, lack of shooter movement and muzzle movement. But yeah a good bolt gun is easy. Fitting all that in an ar is something different. What about the saum's? I realize what the 260 will do but good lord a short mag is a tad more HP. Remember this is for hunting only so firefight reliability isnt an issue nor is barrel life, ease of loading,whether its clean or dirty or anything else. 2 things matter. HP and BC. Everything else I'll deal with it. I really want a 1200 yd deer capable gun. The 7 mil in a ar10 is probly the only way there.
I want to combo this with a burris eliminator III. And no Im not one of those idjits. The technology is here and finally usable with an atmospheric correction. I own a NF or 2 and Ive been using a palm pilot with exbal for ages. Now I have a phone that does it. WOW. But this eliminator will be what changes it all. Why fart around twirlin dials when the computer does it for you in milliseconds. When burris added the altitude correction factor they totally changed the market. Sorry to nightforce and everyone else but for speed this thing is going to kill it and while I am proud of my ability to do it myself when its time to make a shot I'll take the easy fast way every time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fng23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dig the benefits of an AR10 but I think people are starting to see them as a mythical beast that is the end all in LR shooting. They are kind of a jack of all trades/master of none. You can not run the really large capacity flat shooting magnums out of it and even the fast 6mm and 6.5mm need a long barrel and moderately reloaded ammo.
Sounds like you would be really happy with a smooth running bolt gun with maybe a suppressor to get a decent followup shot on un-rattled prey.
Not writing anything new.
If you find the end all answer to "Long action magnum performance in a reliable ar10" please share it with the rest of the class.
Ern </div></div>I was just looking at an ar for the speed of reload, lack of shooter movement and muzzle movement. But yeah a good bolt gun is easy. Fitting all that in an ar is something different. What about the saum's? I realize what the 260 will do but good lord a short mag is a tad more HP. Remember this is for hunting only so firefight reliability isnt an issue nor is barrel life, ease of loading,whether its clean or dirty or anything else. 2 things matter. HP and BC. Everything else I'll deal with it. I really want a 1200 yd deer capable gun. The 7 mil in a ar10 is probly the only way there.
I want to combo this with a burris eliminator III. And no Im not one of those idjits. The technology is here and finally usable with an atmospheric correction. I own a NF or 2 and Ive been using a palm pilot with exbal for ages. Now I have a phone that does it. WOW. But this eliminator will be what changes it all. Why fart around twirlin dials when the computer does it for you in milliseconds. When burris added the altitude correction factor they totally changed the market. Sorry to nightforce and everyone else but for speed this thing is going to kill it and while I am proud of my ability to do it myself when its time to make a shot I'll take the easy fast way every time.
Re: .284 win ar-10
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here you go:
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NIiWf2DSOhM"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NIiWf2DSOhM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>Geee wally never thought a that lol. 50's make my head hurt toom much. 1st one I bought was at the tulsa show. I walked out with an lar and some dude was walkin in with a serbu and a smith made shellholder. He wanted half what I had in the lar so I said piss on it! I went from 0 to 3 bmg's in one day. HATED them. 338 or 375 is a lot more practical and doesnt make my nose run and my head hurt for 2 hours.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here you go:
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NIiWf2DSOhM"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NIiWf2DSOhM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>Geee wally never thought a that lol. 50's make my head hurt toom much. 1st one I bought was at the tulsa show. I walked out with an lar and some dude was walkin in with a serbu and a smith made shellholder. He wanted half what I had in the lar so I said piss on it! I went from 0 to 3 bmg's in one day. HATED them. 338 or 375 is a lot more practical and doesnt make my nose run and my head hurt for 2 hours.
Re: .284 win ar-10
Hunting What? 900 yards is close range?
Semi Autos make a huge difference in Coyote Hunting and Hog Hunting--lots of fast moving targets.
Guys who are hunting over 900 yards are shooting the Allen Magnums from Bolt guns.
Link: http://apsrifles.com/Allen_Magnum_Wildcats.html.
I don't see how a Semi Auto is an advantage when time of flight exceeds 1 second.
Just my thoughts.,
BMT
Hunting What? 900 yards is close range?
Semi Autos make a huge difference in Coyote Hunting and Hog Hunting--lots of fast moving targets.
Guys who are hunting over 900 yards are shooting the Allen Magnums from Bolt guns.
Link: http://apsrifles.com/Allen_Magnum_Wildcats.html.
I don't see how a Semi Auto is an advantage when time of flight exceeds 1 second.
Just my thoughts.,
BMT
Re: .284 win ar-10
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hunting What? 900 yards is close range?
Semi Autos make a huge difference in Coyote Hunting and Hog Hunting--lots of fast moving targets.
Guys who are hunting over 900 yards are shooting the Allen Magnums from Bolt guns.
Link: http://apsrifles.com/Allen_Magnum_Wildcats.html.
I don't see how a Semi Auto is an advantage when time of flight exceeds 1 second.
Just my thoughts.,
BMT </div></div> Gun will be used from 50 ft to 1200 yds. I will kill as many does as possible at once. If I can get 10 then so be it. To me LR starts about 880 yds so I only want about 300 more. With a big bolt gun 880 is a breeze of a shot. Ive done the 50s the cheys and usually just use my old edge cuz its ugly. Im trying to combine a smaller package that will still hit 1.2k. Even a 26" ar10 is tiny compared to my bolt guns.My edge has taken deer over 2k and a yote at 2450 so ive got the elr down. This to me is a MIDRANGE rig with the capability of killing multiples or even sending 2 at 1000+ due to cycle speed. I cant get 2 in the air with my edge. A 7mil on a gas system with a large brake should be really nasty as a mid range rig.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hunting What? 900 yards is close range?
Semi Autos make a huge difference in Coyote Hunting and Hog Hunting--lots of fast moving targets.
Guys who are hunting over 900 yards are shooting the Allen Magnums from Bolt guns.
Link: http://apsrifles.com/Allen_Magnum_Wildcats.html.
I don't see how a Semi Auto is an advantage when time of flight exceeds 1 second.
Just my thoughts.,
BMT </div></div> Gun will be used from 50 ft to 1200 yds. I will kill as many does as possible at once. If I can get 10 then so be it. To me LR starts about 880 yds so I only want about 300 more. With a big bolt gun 880 is a breeze of a shot. Ive done the 50s the cheys and usually just use my old edge cuz its ugly. Im trying to combine a smaller package that will still hit 1.2k. Even a 26" ar10 is tiny compared to my bolt guns.My edge has taken deer over 2k and a yote at 2450 so ive got the elr down. This to me is a MIDRANGE rig with the capability of killing multiples or even sending 2 at 1000+ due to cycle speed. I cant get 2 in the air with my edge. A 7mil on a gas system with a large brake should be really nasty as a mid range rig.
Re: .284 win ar-10
toddcdozer...don't listen to the naysayers selling you things like...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Larger diameter body of the 284 is going to create issues. </div></div>Nonsense. The WSM and SAUM operate just fine and that's substantially larger than the 284. Armalite and DPMS discontinued them because of the market...not because of any issues with the weapon.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not worth the hassle and you'll not exceed what a 260 or 7-08 does without special gyrations</div></div>Nonsense. A modified or custom built bolt is the only specialization that is NECESSARY and any of the WSM or SAUM's will smash the 260 or 7-08 to shit in ballistics.
You may CHOOSE to run an adjustable gas block and/or an improved buffer spring...but it's not necessary. I do because I shoot suppressed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can not run the really large capacity flat shooting magnums out of it and even the fast 6mm and 6.5mm need a long barrel and moderately reloaded ammo.</div></div>Of course you can, and 24" is plenty long enough, but 26" isn't unheard of. The ONLY issues you'll have are running bullets larger than 210 for the 300 SAUM, bullets larger than 168 for the 7mmSAUM and MAYBE 140s in the 6.5. All else should operate just peachy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys who are hunting over 900 yards are shooting the Allen Magnums from Bolt guns. </div></div>Nonsense. Took my pronghorn at 930 with my 300 SAUM AR10 and will be doing the same with my late season white tail tag any day now. 190 VLDs at 2915 carry PLENTY of energy to take game beyond 1000.
Accuracy Systems will build you just about anything you want, and to my knowledge, they are the only ones CURRENTLY producing rifles chambered in WSM or SAUM. (besides RND Manufacturing but those aren't AR platforms)
For DEER at the range your projecting...I would have them build you a 7mm SAUM chambered to run 168gr VLDs at mag length. You'll have NO problem pushing them at the speed needed to kill at 1200 yds and if you decide to run a 26" barrel, you'll be able to push it MUCH farther than that.
My Armalite 300 SAUM is an absolute HAMMER and I've taken it out to a mile on 13" steel. That's just about the distance it starts to go subsonic, so that's as far as I've pushed it...but with 190 VLDs at 2915 fps, 1500 yds is well inside it's killing radius.
The only reason no commercial entities want to carry the magnum calibers anymore is because the market is too small. The only reason smaller custom shops won't do it is cause I don't believe anyone makes a bolt anymore, so they would have to resort to modifying .308 bolts.
I believe Accuracy Systems still has a supply. Call and ask Carl what he can do for you. I know they don't have the 7mm SAUM listed on their site, but the last time I checked, it was because factory ammo was to scarce.
If you reload, he'll build you whatever you want.
Here's my factory barreled Armalite 300 SAUM and initial load development with 3 different bullets
I'll be building a couple more uppers as well, probably a 7mm SAUM as well as a 6.5 SAUM, since I already have a magnum bolt to swap between uppers.
Here's some load development targets at 500, 700 and 800 yds
toddcdozer...don't listen to the naysayers selling you things like...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Larger diameter body of the 284 is going to create issues. </div></div>Nonsense. The WSM and SAUM operate just fine and that's substantially larger than the 284. Armalite and DPMS discontinued them because of the market...not because of any issues with the weapon.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not worth the hassle and you'll not exceed what a 260 or 7-08 does without special gyrations</div></div>Nonsense. A modified or custom built bolt is the only specialization that is NECESSARY and any of the WSM or SAUM's will smash the 260 or 7-08 to shit in ballistics.
You may CHOOSE to run an adjustable gas block and/or an improved buffer spring...but it's not necessary. I do because I shoot suppressed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can not run the really large capacity flat shooting magnums out of it and even the fast 6mm and 6.5mm need a long barrel and moderately reloaded ammo.</div></div>Of course you can, and 24" is plenty long enough, but 26" isn't unheard of. The ONLY issues you'll have are running bullets larger than 210 for the 300 SAUM, bullets larger than 168 for the 7mmSAUM and MAYBE 140s in the 6.5. All else should operate just peachy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys who are hunting over 900 yards are shooting the Allen Magnums from Bolt guns. </div></div>Nonsense. Took my pronghorn at 930 with my 300 SAUM AR10 and will be doing the same with my late season white tail tag any day now. 190 VLDs at 2915 carry PLENTY of energy to take game beyond 1000.
Accuracy Systems will build you just about anything you want, and to my knowledge, they are the only ones CURRENTLY producing rifles chambered in WSM or SAUM. (besides RND Manufacturing but those aren't AR platforms)
For DEER at the range your projecting...I would have them build you a 7mm SAUM chambered to run 168gr VLDs at mag length. You'll have NO problem pushing them at the speed needed to kill at 1200 yds and if you decide to run a 26" barrel, you'll be able to push it MUCH farther than that.
My Armalite 300 SAUM is an absolute HAMMER and I've taken it out to a mile on 13" steel. That's just about the distance it starts to go subsonic, so that's as far as I've pushed it...but with 190 VLDs at 2915 fps, 1500 yds is well inside it's killing radius.
The only reason no commercial entities want to carry the magnum calibers anymore is because the market is too small. The only reason smaller custom shops won't do it is cause I don't believe anyone makes a bolt anymore, so they would have to resort to modifying .308 bolts.
I believe Accuracy Systems still has a supply. Call and ask Carl what he can do for you. I know they don't have the 7mm SAUM listed on their site, but the last time I checked, it was because factory ammo was to scarce.
If you reload, he'll build you whatever you want.
Here's my factory barreled Armalite 300 SAUM and initial load development with 3 different bullets
I'll be building a couple more uppers as well, probably a 7mm SAUM as well as a 6.5 SAUM, since I already have a magnum bolt to swap between uppers.
Here's some load development targets at 500, 700 and 800 yds
Re: .284 win ar-10
I built my WSM and 243 AI ARs before it was "common" to have something other then a 308. Those rifles required more tweaking then 308/260/243 build. If you have AS build the rifle, then the needed tweaks would be transparent to the OP. However, it does not change the fact the tweaks need to be done. My comment was from a DIY build and that there are tweaks needed vs 308/308 parent case build. I'll admit I didn't look at it from the buy from a builder aspect.
Doing a SAUM or 284 the "right" way you'd want to move port out a bit. Will it work in standard location, yeah. Would I run a std length gas system on a SAUM/WSM/284 based AR, no.
Your "nonsense" comment is only partially true. Lack of knowledge of needed tweaks to make rifle run as an SAUM/WSM/284 does not remove the fact the tweaks need to be done. Again, if OP is buying a rifle/upper from AS then those tweaks will already be done but if he is building upper himself then he at least needs to be aware of the differences.
Magazines are an issue, at least with the DPMS based mags. Only able to run the 5 rd DPMS version and the WSM/SAUM follower is different from the 308/308 based cartridge magazine. If you try the 19 rd mags for WSM/SAUM with standard follower, body swells horribly after 6 rds in magazine to point the magazine will physically not go into mag well.
Unable to comment on Armalite as I've not seen one of their SAUM magazines.
I built my WSM and 243 AI ARs before it was "common" to have something other then a 308. Those rifles required more tweaking then 308/260/243 build. If you have AS build the rifle, then the needed tweaks would be transparent to the OP. However, it does not change the fact the tweaks need to be done. My comment was from a DIY build and that there are tweaks needed vs 308/308 parent case build. I'll admit I didn't look at it from the buy from a builder aspect.
Doing a SAUM or 284 the "right" way you'd want to move port out a bit. Will it work in standard location, yeah. Would I run a std length gas system on a SAUM/WSM/284 based AR, no.
Your "nonsense" comment is only partially true. Lack of knowledge of needed tweaks to make rifle run as an SAUM/WSM/284 does not remove the fact the tweaks need to be done. Again, if OP is buying a rifle/upper from AS then those tweaks will already be done but if he is building upper himself then he at least needs to be aware of the differences.
Magazines are an issue, at least with the DPMS based mags. Only able to run the 5 rd DPMS version and the WSM/SAUM follower is different from the 308/308 based cartridge magazine. If you try the 19 rd mags for WSM/SAUM with standard follower, body swells horribly after 6 rds in magazine to point the magazine will physically not go into mag well.
Unable to comment on Armalite as I've not seen one of their SAUM magazines.
Re: .284 win ar-10
Thanx for alll the replies. I knew of the saum but figured the 284 with the head size would be DIYable. If I use the 284 would some mag tweakin and an adj gas block make it work with a little tweakin?
Thanx for alll the replies. I knew of the saum but figured the 284 with the head size would be DIYable. If I use the 284 would some mag tweakin and an adj gas block make it work with a little tweakin?
Re: .284 win ar-10
Angle of feed ramps in relation to release point of feed lips, this is going to change depending on bullet dia, body dia, ogive of bullet uesed, etc.
Heavy buffer
Extended gas system
Properly size port
Adjustable gas block for fine tuning
I'd go with Armalite based as you can get another 0.050" of OAL with the Armalite magazine vs DPSM/Knights pattern magazine. I've not had any issue with the Armalite mags and prefer the longer OAL even though the magazines are a bit more expensive than DPMS/Knights pattern magazines.
If Accuracy Systems is building complete rifles in 284 Win, 300 SAUM, or 7 SAUM I'd suggest having them do a complete rifle for you.
I'd keep bore as large as possible relative to case capacity. Part of the issue with gas gun is that when you go to slower powders (typically speaking you'll run step slower powders in 7 SAUM then you will in a 300 SAUM and use touch more powder too)
it raises port pressure and gas volume available to cycle BCG. If port pressure is higher, that also means that chamber pressure at time of extraction is higher....meaning case is still held against chamber wall more force. Rims get bent (or torn off, leaving case in chamber), burr raised on case head, etc.; all undesirable traits that are not great for reloading the brass.
Smaller you go in bore for a give case capacity, the harder it is to make system well balanced in a gas gun. Properly configured 284, 300 SAUM or 7 SAUM should run quite well. Could you do it yourself, maybe. Depends on how much tinkering you like to do and if you have access to machine tools. Start with small port size and work up would be my suggestion. Once port is too large, adjustable gas block and heavier buffer weight are band-aid that will make system work; having adj gas block is better than being over gassed but I still prefer correctly sized port.
I've also found that for AR systems to be optimized you will need to stick with narrow range of powder/bullet for best overall performance. Lighter bullets tend to need larger gas port, if you then go to a heavier bullet the port is too large and rifle is over gassed.
I'm pretty happy with 260 sending a 142 SMK at 2775 from my AR and not trashing the brass. 7-08 is next build, just got my reamer that was specifically set up for 7-08 in AR platform launching 162 Hornady or 168 JLK, might try Matrix and Berger also.
Good luck with your project!
Angle of feed ramps in relation to release point of feed lips, this is going to change depending on bullet dia, body dia, ogive of bullet uesed, etc.
Heavy buffer
Extended gas system
Properly size port
Adjustable gas block for fine tuning
I'd go with Armalite based as you can get another 0.050" of OAL with the Armalite magazine vs DPSM/Knights pattern magazine. I've not had any issue with the Armalite mags and prefer the longer OAL even though the magazines are a bit more expensive than DPMS/Knights pattern magazines.
If Accuracy Systems is building complete rifles in 284 Win, 300 SAUM, or 7 SAUM I'd suggest having them do a complete rifle for you.
I'd keep bore as large as possible relative to case capacity. Part of the issue with gas gun is that when you go to slower powders (typically speaking you'll run step slower powders in 7 SAUM then you will in a 300 SAUM and use touch more powder too)
it raises port pressure and gas volume available to cycle BCG. If port pressure is higher, that also means that chamber pressure at time of extraction is higher....meaning case is still held against chamber wall more force. Rims get bent (or torn off, leaving case in chamber), burr raised on case head, etc.; all undesirable traits that are not great for reloading the brass.
Smaller you go in bore for a give case capacity, the harder it is to make system well balanced in a gas gun. Properly configured 284, 300 SAUM or 7 SAUM should run quite well. Could you do it yourself, maybe. Depends on how much tinkering you like to do and if you have access to machine tools. Start with small port size and work up would be my suggestion. Once port is too large, adjustable gas block and heavier buffer weight are band-aid that will make system work; having adj gas block is better than being over gassed but I still prefer correctly sized port.
I've also found that for AR systems to be optimized you will need to stick with narrow range of powder/bullet for best overall performance. Lighter bullets tend to need larger gas port, if you then go to a heavier bullet the port is too large and rifle is over gassed.
I'm pretty happy with 260 sending a 142 SMK at 2775 from my AR and not trashing the brass. 7-08 is next build, just got my reamer that was specifically set up for 7-08 in AR platform launching 162 Hornady or 168 JLK, might try Matrix and Berger also.
Good luck with your project!
Re: .284 win ar-10
c_bass16, why did you have to go and post that? Holy crap batman, that is a hammer.
Freaking beautiful rifle too, BTW. What barrel-make is that?
Looking at the new line-up from Nosler with the Accubond Long-Range has me thinking about some bigger bores, although I don't need one. The .260 Rem is plenty for me right now.
I think even a 7mm-08 would do well with the 150gr ABLR or 168gr ABLR. The BC's are way high.
c_bass16, why did you have to go and post that? Holy crap batman, that is a hammer.
Freaking beautiful rifle too, BTW. What barrel-make is that?
Looking at the new line-up from Nosler with the Accubond Long-Range has me thinking about some bigger bores, although I don't need one. The .260 Rem is plenty for me right now.
I think even a 7mm-08 would do well with the 150gr ABLR or 168gr ABLR. The BC's are way high.
Re: .284 win ar-10
I have always been a fan of 7-08 and with the new Nosler bullets, I may be falling in love all over again.
I have always been a fan of 7-08 and with the new Nosler bullets, I may be falling in love all over again.
I fell into this rabbit hole last year. I bought a noreen bn36 with a 300 win mag and 7 rem mag barrel. I also bought a falkor 300win mag. Kak offers a complete 300wsm upper for a dpms lower for under 1000$. Noreen also came out with a lighterweight bn36 and they come in 30-06, 270, 25-06, 300win mag, and 7 rem mag.
I've looked into the WSM, RSAUM, 300 RCM, and similar "magnum" style AR10 conversion. The problem boils down to this: now that everyone has basically stopped making them, you cannot get replacement extractors and bolts, which will fail at a much faster rate than normal. Accuracy Systems has poor reviews and even poorer CS from everything I've read and been told, so don't count on them to deliver a properly modified gun, much less good spare parts and timely replacements.
This is in addition to the information above about all the necessary modifications needed to get them to run semi-reliably.
The best way to get the most out of an AR10 is to go with a 7mm Creedmoor. Or do your own wildcat with the single stack big bore conversions like necking down the Beck .510 or similar.
This is in addition to the information above about all the necessary modifications needed to get them to run semi-reliably.
The best way to get the most out of an AR10 is to go with a 7mm Creedmoor. Or do your own wildcat with the single stack big bore conversions like necking down the Beck .510 or similar.
I had thought about a 7mm-08 when putting my AR10's together. I didn't go with it because while I really like 7mm, it's the heavier projectiles that have high stats. Those heavies would have to be seated pretty deep decreasing case capacity. I ended up with a Creedmoor one of each flavor (6.5mm @ 6mm). Haven't ever regretted either of those choices as I really enjoy both.
I've got a 6.5 CM lightweight, and I just rebarreled my other 6.5CM into a 45 Raptor.
I'm just interested in trying one of the 7mm's. But like Wile Coyote said, seating the longer VLD bullets deep, to fit into the 2.84" mag, kind of defeats the purpose...
I'm just interested in trying one of the 7mm's. But like Wile Coyote said, seating the longer VLD bullets deep, to fit into the 2.84" mag, kind of defeats the purpose...
A .260 in an AR-10 should be close to ideal, but a 6.5CM will have some small advantages with longer, heavier bullets vs magazine length due to the shorter neck.
My guess would be to use lighter (123/130) gr bullets, or the 140 (vs 142)SMK, which is shorter than the 142, for the 260 in an AR-10.
Greg
My guess would be to use lighter (123/130) gr bullets, or the 140 (vs 142)SMK, which is shorter than the 142, for the 260 in an AR-10.
Greg
Lucky for me I never got the memo.
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Mostly all standard 308 set-up; though I had McGowen custom cut the barrel to my specs, nobody actually makes 284 win AR barrels. The only real weak point in the whole set-up is the magazine limitation; if that's what you want to call it, because most 284 spawns are actually "supercharged" by being chambered in long-action set-ups. The biggest problem is the width of the 284 case starts to swell a standard 308 magazine loaded past 4 cartridges. Since I never shoot more than 5 at a time anyway--minor inconvenience for me. I took a simple and cheap plastic 308 PMAG and cut a slot out in the front of the mag that allows cartridge OAL's over the standard 2.8 and it works fine, however the magazine will not simply drop free from the magwell when loaded should that be an important feature for you. It isn't for me.
The 284 win case is inherently strong, and the width allows powerful charges to be loaded even when a very high SD bullet is seated way down into the case. Those are "hidden advantages" that people may not be aware of if they haven't loaded the 284 case. I've only tried a couple combinations so far, so I'm sure I haven't found the "sweet spot" load yet. I have achieved .6 MOA groups with 162 eldx's driven by H4350 and the group above are 185 rdf's driven by RL19. I'm actually going to go out and chrono the 185 rdf's today with my labradar. It's a "low-end" charge of 47.5 grs; but according to my QL program you don't gain much of anything by filling the case up with more powder (and those combos did not shoot well in my particular gun).
I haven't yet pushed the cartridge to show pressure signs--but it is a "snappy" one--it's bark is worse than it's felt recoil, if you know what I mean. My set-up does show sensitivity to the charge weight/harmonics with a grain or two up from a very accurate load showing significant dispersion.
The 284 win case is inherently strong, and the width allows powerful charges to be loaded even when a very high SD bullet is seated way down into the case. Those are "hidden advantages" that people may not be aware of if they haven't loaded the 284 case. I've only tried a couple combinations so far, so I'm sure I haven't found the "sweet spot" load yet. I have achieved .6 MOA groups with 162 eldx's driven by H4350 and the group above are 185 rdf's driven by RL19. I'm actually going to go out and chrono the 185 rdf's today with my labradar. It's a "low-end" charge of 47.5 grs; but according to my QL program you don't gain much of anything by filling the case up with more powder (and those combos did not shoot well in my particular gun).
I haven't yet pushed the cartridge to show pressure signs--but it is a "snappy" one--it's bark is worse than it's felt recoil, if you know what I mean. My set-up does show sensitivity to the charge weight/harmonics with a grain or two up from a very accurate load showing significant dispersion.
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I just got back--and the numbers were a mixed bag for the 185 rdf's. The best load I found using RL19 is 47.5 grs--labradar showed good consistency with an SD of 10fps or less, which is similar to what I've measured in the past. I also shot a group loaded to 50 grs, but only picked up around 110 fps (which is what QL told me) which had an SD of around 5 fps but the bullets landed highly dispersed--only thing I can think of is that somehow the projectile is being destabilized upon exiting the muzzle. As much as I like this load I am only getting an average velocity of 2325 fps; which I figure puts it at the transonic zone right around 1000 yds--and I think I should drop down in projectile size to pick up some velocity.
Forgot to mention--an adjustable gas block is essential IMO. I went with a rifle +2" .750 gas system on a 23" barrel, but I do find myself having to adjust for different projectile/powder loads, so I can't say for sure that's the ideal gas system.
Forgot to mention--an adjustable gas block is essential IMO. I went with a rifle +2" .750 gas system on a 23" barrel, but I do find myself having to adjust for different projectile/powder loads, so I can't say for sure that's the ideal gas system.
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Yes. It’s a rebated WSM before WSM existed. Think .308 Win. .473” case head with .500” body diameter.
Its main advantage was for short action bolt guns not needing anything other than a barrel change if they were already set-up for .308 Win.
Due to magazine-restricted COL in AR-10s, the case length limits what you can do with projectile length and seating depth and still be able to run through the gas gun.
Case volume allows for more propellant, so you then have to change the gas system configuration to get it to run optimally, and really narrow down the projectile weight to get reliable function.
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