300 Wsm 155g Scenars

The Pilgrim

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Minuteman
Aug 25, 2019
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I haven’t posted before but I read a lot of posts with good info.
I have just built a 300 Wsm I intend to use for PRS and I am thinking of utilising some 155g Scenars I have. Barrel is 1-10 26” heavy Varmint in an MDT Oryx chassis topped with a Riton X7 Conquer.

Any thoughts or info on the bullet weight for out to 1k?
Tia
 
Just curious: Have you tried your WSM at a PRS match? What bullet weight did you end up using?

Reason i ask: In the process of building an ELR on a budget rifle in 300 WSM. Intending to shoot 212 monos or possibly 241 Seneca bullets, so needing a 7 twist. What i have noticed is that the top PRS competitors are moving to 6 mm calibers, mostly for the light recoil, in order to maintain sight picture and spot their misses. What was your experience in this regard?
 
I haven’t posted before but I read a lot of posts with good info.
I have just built a 300 Wsm I intend to use for PRS and I am thinking of utilising some 155g Scenars I have. Barrel is 1-10 26” heavy Varmint in an MDT Oryx chassis topped with a Riton X7 Conquer.

Any thoughts or info on the bullet weight for out to 1k?
Tia
If you are going for relatively light recoil, the 168 Berger hybrid will beat the shit out of that scenar at 1000. If you are stuck on a 155, the 155.5 Berger accuracy is superior in some barrels. You have enough twist to go 200.20X but good luck spotting .
 
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If you are going for relatively light recoil, the 168 Berger hybrid will beat the shit out of that scenar at 1000. If you are stuck on a 155, the 155.5 Berger accuracy is superior in some barrels. You have enough twist to go 200.20X but good luck spotting .
How is that? The 168 has a G1 BC that’s .007 higher.
 
OP, the issue with the Scenars and PRS is going to be the speed limit. I think it’s like 3150. You can push that Scenar over 3500.

There is a widening gap between tactical or terminal rifles and PRS. Your build falls deep into that chasm. I personally wouldn’t sweat it. I’d practice with and enjoy my rifle, and build a 6BR for PRS. That 300 WSM and Scenar combo is one of the most terminally impressive combos I’ve ever seen in a SA.
 
Experience
Well, I’ve never shot the 168 hybrids from a SA 300 WSM, so I can’t disagree, but I have a hard time believing anything smokes the 155 to 1000 in a WSM in a SA. Our experience is incredibly different. That 155 rivals my 6.5 SAUM with 130 JLKs (3250). TOF and terminal performance are top shelf to 700-800.
 
For anyone interested- Litz tested that Scenar @ 3030fps in a 1:13” twist and .307” bore, use a 1:11” and .308” tube @ 3400fps and they go higher. According to Litz the g1 is basically the same between the Berger (R) and the Scenar (M) the eyeball test tells you that’s not true. With pointed OG 155s or new 155 Ls that .500 is pretty close.

112B0981-3C1A-4243-A52E-D4F0C9D460FA.jpeg
 
I realize PRS and NRL have mostly switched to 6 mm calibers to maximize their chances of spotting their own misses, due to far less disturbance to the sight picture. Even if wind drift is less impressive, that appears to be the better trade-off.

So i have to ask a heretical question: Would you not get the same benefit if you download say a 230 Berger Hybrid (with its very high BC) and run it at a much much slower speed to have the exact same recoil energy as a 115 gn 6 mm bullet at 3100 fps? Ballistic calculator can be used to figure that out. Much more elevation will be needed, but distances are known, so an extra half second for dialing. Ensure good case fill by picking an “inappropriate” (far from ideal) powder that will deliver a much much lower speed. Would you not end up in the same place, in terms of ability to spot misses, at the same or very similar wind drift?

Have not run the calcs yet. So just a hunch!
 
I realize PRS and NRL have mostly switched to 6 mm calibers to maximize their chances of spotting their own misses, due to far less disturbance to the sight picture. Even if wind drift is less impressive, that appears to be the better trade-off.

So i have to ask a heretical question: Would you not get the same benefit if you download say a 230 Berger Hybrid (with its very high BC) and run it at a much much slower speed to have the exact same recoil energy as a 115 gn 6 mm bullet at 3100 fps? Ballistic calculator can be used to figure that out. Much more elevation will be needed, but distances are known, so an extra half second for dialing. Ensure good case fill by picking an “inappropriate” (far from ideal) powder that will deliver a much much lower speed. Would you not end up in the same place, in terms of ability to spot misses, at the same or very similar wind drift?

Have not run the calcs yet. So just a hunch!
My 300 Wsm was shooting 208g ELD match on a PRS day, quite a cross wind (18-20mph) but it proved itself. It’s certainly not a cheap cartridge to run mind.
 
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I realize PRS and NRL have mostly switched to 6 mm calibers to maximize their chances of spotting their own misses, due to far less disturbance to the sight picture. Even if wind drift is less impressive, that appears to be the better trade-off.

So i have to ask a heretical question: Would you not get the same benefit if you download say a 230 Berger Hybrid (with its very high BC) and run it at a much much slower speed to have the exact same recoil energy as a 115 gn 6 mm bullet at 3100 fps? Ballistic calculator can be used to figure that out. Much more elevation will be needed, but distances are known, so an extra half second for dialing. Ensure good case fill by picking an “inappropriate” (far from ideal) powder that will deliver a much much lower speed. Would you not end up in the same place, in terms of ability to spot misses, at the same or very similar wind drift?

Have not run the calcs yet. So just a hunch!
No. Not going to happen.

Download a 230 with only 20 gr of powder that’s roughly equivalent to a 105 with 145 grains of powder.

230+20 = 250 = 105 + 145
 
What else is there to do when you have an 8 hour stopover at an airport in Arabia…

Ran the calcs, and it is indeed possible, AT LEAST THEORETICALLY, to slow down a high BC 30 cal bullet to arrive at the same recoil energy as a fast 6 mm 109 Hybrid (2250 ft-lbs at 3100 fps), without compromising wind drift.

However:

Unfortunately, you will need to run it really slow, like 2,200 fps. Chamber pressure will be very low, i guess 40,000 psi range, and expect the brass case might not seal off all the gasses? At the very least you will get a sooty case. At worst it might perhaps be below minimum safe value to seal the chamber, so not recommended. You will also have to experiment with strange powders.

Summary:

1) Depending on bullet choice and BC, wind drift was either the same or slightly better (up to 10%).

2) Need 35 to 38 MOA at 1,000 yards, instead of 21 MOA. So a lot more dialing. [More than one revolution of the turret, so perhaps more risk of getting “lost”.]

BTW: For a 6.5 CM vs a 6 CM vs a 25 CM, this is entirely possible, and even looks practical to me…. Have to try it one day.

The big question is if sight picture disturbance is proportional to recoil energy, or some other metric like recoil speed?
 
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I’m not sure what you’re using for calcs but this calculator is showing about 1400 fps with a 230 and 40 gr of powder to match 105 loads at 3100. To match the popular 105 at 2850 6BR loads, you need to go slower than my kids’ BB gun.
 
Would you not get the same benefit if you download say a 230 Berger Hybrid (with its very high BC) and run it at a much much slower speed to have the exact same recoil energy as a 115 gn 6 mm bullet at 3100 fps?

Where is the benefit of running a way more expensive bullet super slow? Drop curve is going to be retarded, the bullet is so slow it open the door for variables, you'll probably need to dial every shot. If doing this at least use 308 instead of 300wsm, Berger even lists 230grn loads @2100-2300ish FPS.
But the same recoil as 115@ 3100 is probably closer to 1600fps with a 230.
 
Thanks for replying, and yes i might need to double check the calcs.

Purpose of the post was to see if the man with one rifle (say a 300 WSM with a fast twist rate) can have the best of both worlds: A superb long range hunting rifle approaching Winmag territory when shooting high BC hunting bullets (at the price of significant recoil), and a low recoiling PRS gun for competition, by reducing speed very significantly, possibly with more weights mounted to the chassis. The big question was/is if you could get wind drift to be reasonable via a combo of very high BC and low speed. More of a theoretical exercise, perhaps.

Have to say, i am not yet trying to recommend anything here, more of a brainstorming of ideas to see what comes out of it. Your criticisms are all valid points, and yes the drop woll be in the retarded category. 😊 I was interested to find out if perhaps there are viable workarounds, like picking super high BC bullets to reduce wind drift when you have to give up so much speed, and maybe adding more weight to the chassis. [I realize these are expensive bullets, and building a second rifle in the correct caliber might be cheaper.]

i was using Strelok Pro - mostly because of ease-of-use and familiarity. Do you know if their Kinetic Energy calc is incorrect? [Edit: It is not, bullet Kinetic Energy/Ke is not a good analogue for recoil, because gas flow from the barrel contributes the majority of the recoil energy.] Will try your online suggestion, thx.

It does seem that a 7 or a 6.5 mm can be downloaded to approach the wind drift of a 6 mm and have way lower recoil. [Edit: Typically still 30% more recoil than the extremely low recoiling 6 mm comparison rifle.] For a 308 and especially a 300 WSM, agree that is a stretch. Will need to confirm my Ke calcs before commenting more.
 
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Well i have to declare that i had a “brain fart”: My assumption that recoil energy is approximately proportional to bullet energy (Ke) at the muzzle is not correct: The barrel acts like a rocket engine when all that hot gas tries to escape from the thin hole at the end of the barrel, and a jet of supersonic gasses is pushing the rifle backwards against your shoulder. And a WSM burns 70 gn of powder compared to 32 - 42 gn for a typical 6 mm. That makes a big difference.

Almost 2/3’rds of the “recoil energy” in the online calculator is dependent on the powder charge. Link to online recoil calculator:


Change the powder charge to zero, and you will see the big difference the gas flow makes. This calculator is probably making good assumptions for hunting rifles without muzzle brakes, but all (or almost all) PRS rifles will have brakes on them, or ar least a suppressor. So not convinced the online recoil calcultion methodology is entirely correct either: A good brake can divert slightly over half of the gasses sideways (neutralizing the rocket motor effect) - or even backwards, actively counteracting recoil at the expense of significant muzzle blast.

But yes, redoing the calcs using “ShootersCalculator” shows that you need around 1600 fps to get a 300 WSM shooting heavy (240 gn) very high BC 30 cal bullets to equal the recoil energy of a 108 ELDM .243” bullet at 3000 fps, but then the wind drift at 600 yards is 10% higher compared to the 6 mm projectile. But you will have to dial even the 400 yard shots, which will waste time. So NOT practical at all! There is just too much weight in these high BC 30 cal bullets pushing the recoil number way up. Low weight 30 cal bullets like a 180 gn don’t work out either: They will have double the wind drift (at 2,200 fps, where recoil becomes equal).

Doing the same calcs for a 6.5 does work out better. It seems you can get your 6.5 shooting 144 gn Berger Hybrids to have exactly the same recoil as a 108 ELDM from a 6 Creedmoor at 2,250 fps, and fairly similar wind drift (only 10% worse). Or match the wind drift exactly at slightly more recoil. Or pick some compromise number in the middle.

Recoil energy for a 108 at 3000 fps equals 2.96 foot pounds:

1E700323-E341-4AF2-9DE5-CB1D500A782E.jpeg


For the 6.5 mm, let’s pick the 144 Berger Hybrid and reduce speed until we equal the 2.96 recoil number from before:

C12DC118-28E0-4C84-9E3D-4FFE9DE101DC.jpeg


BTW: I reduced the powder charge to 10 to try and simulate an aggressive brake, with the high speed gasses generated from 10 grains out of a total of 40 grains of powder being the net remaining force on the rifle, the rest goes sideways (no net effect), and some goes backwards doing some partial cancellation of force. No idea if this is reasonable or not! [Somebody needs to develop a recoil calculator that simulates different muzzle brakes and suppressors.]

Not sure i even have a real conclusion, but maybe if you have an existing 6.5 Creedmoor comp rifle, you were competitive before until the boys all changed over to 6 mm calibers, and you really don’t want to rebarrel yet, consider downloading to 2400 or 2300 fps and shoot out the barrel, then rebarrel in some suitable 6 mm caliber.
 
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For a 30 cal to equal the wind drift of the 108, at the lowest possible recoil, you need to pick the 30 cal bullet with the highest BC, which is the Seneca 241 gn at a G7 of 0.555, and slow it down to 1700 fps:

8C2F9733-A6FD-4D54-A9C3-986DAD686F3B.png



But recoil is now at 4.4 foot pounds - instead of 2.96. That is 50% higher, significantly more.

CD8D6495-FD4A-4143-AB4E-25388C188171.jpeg


Not really practical.
 

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