Looking to build a rifle for long range in the next 6 months when I get some bills paid off and am trying to decide between the two. Which shoots flatter? Know some custom loaded ammo for 30-06 but not as much for 300 wsm. which and why range would be about 600 to 1000 yards
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Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
Going off the info that montana marine gets with his 30-06 and 190 grain bullets puts it so close to what I get with my 300wsm with 190's they are just about twins. Now I have not used many different powders. Just H4350 and H4831sc so that’s not to say if I changed to a different powder the difference may be greater in favor to the WSM. With lighter bullets I believe the difference would favor the WSM but 190's are all I have tried.
I am currently getting 2825 fps out of a factory FN SPR 24" barrel. Once I depleat my supply of H4350 I will try out Reloader 17 and see if it yields getter velocity.
Either choice will get the job done at distance.
If you are considering a custom build and use a long action with the 300wsm and have it chambered for a long OAL, you should be able to push it faster with 190's and 208's or 210's than the 30-06. Heavy bullets take up powder space in a short action.
Going off the info that montana marine gets with his 30-06 and 190 grain bullets puts it so close to what I get with my 300wsm with 190's they are just about twins. Now I have not used many different powders. Just H4350 and H4831sc so that’s not to say if I changed to a different powder the difference may be greater in favor to the WSM. With lighter bullets I believe the difference would favor the WSM but 190's are all I have tried.
I am currently getting 2825 fps out of a factory FN SPR 24" barrel. Once I depleat my supply of H4350 I will try out Reloader 17 and see if it yields getter velocity.
Either choice will get the job done at distance.
If you are considering a custom build and use a long action with the 300wsm and have it chambered for a long OAL, you should be able to push it faster with 190's and 208's or 210's than the 30-06. Heavy bullets take up powder space in a short action.
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
Powder, bullet and barrel length plays a big part...
are you asking if all things are equal? Seriously???
here's just a rough estimate.
30-06 24" barrel 175 smk case capacity 68.2
Hodgdon H4350 load ratio = 99.3 chrg. wt. = 55.7 fps = 2774 prop burnt = 98.5
300wsm 24" barrel 175 smk case capacity 81.3
Hodgdon H4350 load ratio = 96.0 chrg. wt.= 64.1 fps = 2958 prop. burnt = 99.7
Not even close.....
how ever the '06 is a fine cartridge.
Powder, bullet and barrel length plays a big part...
are you asking if all things are equal? Seriously???
here's just a rough estimate.
30-06 24" barrel 175 smk case capacity 68.2
Hodgdon H4350 load ratio = 99.3 chrg. wt. = 55.7 fps = 2774 prop burnt = 98.5
300wsm 24" barrel 175 smk case capacity 81.3
Hodgdon H4350 load ratio = 96.0 chrg. wt.= 64.1 fps = 2958 prop. burnt = 99.7
Not even close.....
how ever the '06 is a fine cartridge.
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
Here's another consideration.
Being that the real life experience of the 06 and the 300 WSM are practically twins at 190's and the 06 has a very proven history of long range shots what are you trying to acheive with it?
Is it a BR gun, in that case then you're probably barking up the wrong caliber tree. If it's a 600-1000 hunting stick that you want to shoot decent groups and still knock an elk on it's ass then either is fine.
Here's my suggestion.
Get the 30-06, there's HUNDREDS of loading combinations of powder and bullet. Everyone and their brother makes 30-06 brass, and if things get tight, stupid people leave it on the ground occasionally. It's also a former military cartridge, you can find short chambered barrels, chamber reamers, etc etc etc for it.
In centerfire rifle it's the most popular round. The WSM is a fine cartridge, it's a little better than the 06 in some regards. If you're looking for an accurate hunting round with super knockdown you can't go wrong with the 30-06 and the costs to feed it are less.
My first custom build was a 30-06 on a Mauser. That rifle shoots lights out but if I need to walk into any gun shop, sporting goods counter, or mom&pop hardware store that still sells ammo you can bet your ass they have 150, 165 and 180 grain factory 30-06 on the shelf. Good luck with the 300 WSM.
Here's another consideration.
Being that the real life experience of the 06 and the 300 WSM are practically twins at 190's and the 06 has a very proven history of long range shots what are you trying to acheive with it?
Is it a BR gun, in that case then you're probably barking up the wrong caliber tree. If it's a 600-1000 hunting stick that you want to shoot decent groups and still knock an elk on it's ass then either is fine.
Here's my suggestion.
Get the 30-06, there's HUNDREDS of loading combinations of powder and bullet. Everyone and their brother makes 30-06 brass, and if things get tight, stupid people leave it on the ground occasionally. It's also a former military cartridge, you can find short chambered barrels, chamber reamers, etc etc etc for it.
In centerfire rifle it's the most popular round. The WSM is a fine cartridge, it's a little better than the 06 in some regards. If you're looking for an accurate hunting round with super knockdown you can't go wrong with the 30-06 and the costs to feed it are less.
My first custom build was a 30-06 on a Mauser. That rifle shoots lights out but if I need to walk into any gun shop, sporting goods counter, or mom&pop hardware store that still sells ammo you can bet your ass they have 150, 165 and 180 grain factory 30-06 on the shelf. Good luck with the 300 WSM.
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
good points...
I just can't see the '06 keeping pace with the 300wsm.
I have to go look in my notes, I shot the 300wsm and 190's for about 2 years... I'm having a hard time swallowing the fact a '06 capacity keeps up.. I could be wrong.
good points...
I just can't see the '06 keeping pace with the 300wsm.
I have to go look in my notes, I shot the 300wsm and 190's for about 2 years... I'm having a hard time swallowing the fact a '06 capacity keeps up.. I could be wrong.
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
The WSM is better than the 06 for certain bullet weights, just like the 308 excels with 155's and the 06 is a little lacking for that lower weight bullet from my experience.
At 168 the 308 and 30-06 seem to be even from what I've shot first hand between my 06 and my dad's 308.
They're crossing points on the bullet weight vs. MV curve for each cartridge, the 190ish range weight is probably the crossing point for 30-06 and 300 WSM.
My advice was based on 190 weight class and ability to get components and ammunition and easy ownership based on what he's trying to accomplish. I agree that the 300 WSM would beat the 30-06 at 210+ grains, I don't have any first hand experience but looking at the various loading manual data to see the difference is a no brainer, but his stated use happens to be a mostly even trade-off.
Few things are quite as frustrating as being on a hunting trip, some accident befalls your ammo and you now need replacement rounds in them middle of nowhere. With a 30-06 you're going to have the best chance to find something you can use to continue the hunt and take a shot. An empty rifle is just an expensive club.
If you look at it from a cost of build and cost of ownership the 30-06 is far cheaper, if the political environment in the US goes how most of us think it is, the 30-06 is more prevalent and easier to keep fed, etc.
Like I said, just my $.02 but the 30-06 is a better round for his stated purpose.
The WSM is better than the 06 for certain bullet weights, just like the 308 excels with 155's and the 06 is a little lacking for that lower weight bullet from my experience.
At 168 the 308 and 30-06 seem to be even from what I've shot first hand between my 06 and my dad's 308.
They're crossing points on the bullet weight vs. MV curve for each cartridge, the 190ish range weight is probably the crossing point for 30-06 and 300 WSM.
My advice was based on 190 weight class and ability to get components and ammunition and easy ownership based on what he's trying to accomplish. I agree that the 300 WSM would beat the 30-06 at 210+ grains, I don't have any first hand experience but looking at the various loading manual data to see the difference is a no brainer, but his stated use happens to be a mostly even trade-off.
Few things are quite as frustrating as being on a hunting trip, some accident befalls your ammo and you now need replacement rounds in them middle of nowhere. With a 30-06 you're going to have the best chance to find something you can use to continue the hunt and take a shot. An empty rifle is just an expensive club.
If you look at it from a cost of build and cost of ownership the 30-06 is far cheaper, if the political environment in the US goes how most of us think it is, the 30-06 is more prevalent and easier to keep fed, etc.
Like I said, just my $.02 but the 30-06 is a better round for his stated purpose.
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
The 30-06 can be optimized to get some pretty good velocities.
My results with 26" bbl, moly, Norma brass:
110 VMax/RL15, 3750 fps
190 SMK/RL22, 2900 fps
210 Berger/RL22, 2800 fps
240 SMK/RL22, 2610 fps
My results with 22.5" bbl, moly, Norma brass:
110 VMax/RL15, 3570 fps
130 TTSX/RL15. 3340 fps
155 Scenar/RL15, 3080 fps
208 AMax/RL22, 2700 fps
210 Berger/RL22, 2700 fps
That said, the 300 WSM will always have more case volume to work with. If one takes the time to find the optimum load combos, it should be able to beat 30-06 velocities by 100+ fps.
The 30-06 can be optimized to get some pretty good velocities.
My results with 26" bbl, moly, Norma brass:
110 VMax/RL15, 3750 fps
190 SMK/RL22, 2900 fps
210 Berger/RL22, 2800 fps
240 SMK/RL22, 2610 fps
My results with 22.5" bbl, moly, Norma brass:
110 VMax/RL15, 3570 fps
130 TTSX/RL15. 3340 fps
155 Scenar/RL15, 3080 fps
208 AMax/RL22, 2700 fps
210 Berger/RL22, 2700 fps
That said, the 300 WSM will always have more case volume to work with. If one takes the time to find the optimum load combos, it should be able to beat 30-06 velocities by 100+ fps.
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 30-06 can be optimized to get some pretty good velocities.
My results with 26" bbl, moly, Norma brass:
110 VMax/RL15, 3750 fps
190 SMK/RL22, 2900 fps
210 Berger/RL22, 2800 fps
240 SMK/RL22, 2610 fps
My results with 22.5" bbl, moly, Norma brass:
110 VMax/RL15, 3570 fps
130 TTSX/RL15. 3340 fps
155 Scenar/RL15, 3080 fps
208 AMax/RL22, 2700 fps
210 Berger/RL22, 2700 fps
That said, the 300 WSM will always have more case volume to work with. If one takes the time to find the optimum load combos, it should be able to beat 30-06 velocities by 100+ fps. </div></div>
c'mon man... post that pic of that .110 group shot with 190 SMK's using Rl 15...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 30-06 can be optimized to get some pretty good velocities.
My results with 26" bbl, moly, Norma brass:
110 VMax/RL15, 3750 fps
190 SMK/RL22, 2900 fps
210 Berger/RL22, 2800 fps
240 SMK/RL22, 2610 fps
My results with 22.5" bbl, moly, Norma brass:
110 VMax/RL15, 3570 fps
130 TTSX/RL15. 3340 fps
155 Scenar/RL15, 3080 fps
208 AMax/RL22, 2700 fps
210 Berger/RL22, 2700 fps
That said, the 300 WSM will always have more case volume to work with. If one takes the time to find the optimum load combos, it should be able to beat 30-06 velocities by 100+ fps. </div></div>
c'mon man... post that pic of that .110 group shot with 190 SMK's using Rl 15...
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
What action do you have?
Short 300wsm/7wsm
Long 30-06/280
Easy as cake. Brass is more expensive to get for WSM rounds and doesnt last as long as my 30-06 brass.
What action do you have?
Short 300wsm/7wsm
Long 30-06/280
Easy as cake. Brass is more expensive to get for WSM rounds and doesnt last as long as my 30-06 brass.
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
I would go with the 06. My next 30 cal project will probably be a 30-06 in an AICS stock.
I would go with the 06. My next 30 cal project will probably be a 30-06 in an AICS stock.
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
Frank's not keen on 3-shot groups, but here it is.
I would typically get 8 out of a 10 shot group under .5 moa, with a loose one or two opening it up to .8 moa or so. One of the first handloads I worked up for this rifle back at Camp Lejeune in 2000. 50gr RL15 under a moly'd 190 was a real tackdriver. Didn't have a chrono then, but velocity was probably around 2650-2700 fps.
After a while I opted the wind fighting advantage of the 210/RL22 at 2800 fps combo. Still a good sub moa load, and saves some drift.
Frank's not keen on 3-shot groups, but here it is.
I would typically get 8 out of a 10 shot group under .5 moa, with a loose one or two opening it up to .8 moa or so. One of the first handloads I worked up for this rifle back at Camp Lejeune in 2000. 50gr RL15 under a moly'd 190 was a real tackdriver. Didn't have a chrono then, but velocity was probably around 2650-2700 fps.
After a while I opted the wind fighting advantage of the 210/RL22 at 2800 fps combo. Still a good sub moa load, and saves some drift.
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MtM that's very impressive! </div></div>
Personally, I don't care if it is 3rnd group. I wish I was at the level to shoot a .112 MOA group..
Hell my best so far has been .483 with 5...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MtM that's very impressive! </div></div>
Personally, I don't care if it is 3rnd group. I wish I was at the level to shoot a .112 MOA group..
Hell my best so far has been .483 with 5...
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">190 SMK/RL22, 2900 fps</div></div>
That's just downright sexy, don't care who ya are!!!
What percentage of that velocity is attributed to the moly?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">190 SMK/RL22, 2900 fps</div></div>
That's just downright sexy, don't care who ya are!!!
What percentage of that velocity is attributed to the moly?
Re: 300 wsm vs 30-06
300 WSM.
Save 30-06 for a Garand (that is my plan).
I have a custom built Rem 700 300 WSM, and an mod'ed Win 70 30-06.
I agree with MontanaMarine's FPS... My WSM gets about +100-120 fps over those 30-06 loads. I'm running H4831SC which is very similar to RL22.
How much will you be shooting it? At what ranges? My 30-06 is about 10 lbs, and its recoil wears my shoulder out in a short amount of time. I can shoot my 12 lbs WSM much longer and not notice...
I beleive technically, the 300 WSM is the way to go. Historically the 30-06 is a great load.
I would go with WSM given the 600-1000 yd ranges you mentioned. Your +100 fps will help at those ranges.
300 WSM.
Save 30-06 for a Garand (that is my plan).
I have a custom built Rem 700 300 WSM, and an mod'ed Win 70 30-06.
I agree with MontanaMarine's FPS... My WSM gets about +100-120 fps over those 30-06 loads. I'm running H4831SC which is very similar to RL22.
How much will you be shooting it? At what ranges? My 30-06 is about 10 lbs, and its recoil wears my shoulder out in a short amount of time. I can shoot my 12 lbs WSM much longer and not notice...
I beleive technically, the 300 WSM is the way to go. Historically the 30-06 is a great load.
I would go with WSM given the 600-1000 yd ranges you mentioned. Your +100 fps will help at those ranges.
