308 175gr OCW Test

[sudnit5]

I was helping a friend who was starting hand loading and we ran a OCW test. Varget and IMR 4064 were both used and compare to each other. The loads consisted of:

.308 virgin Lapua brass
175gr SMK
Federal 210M primers
2.800" over all length
43.2g - 45g of Varget in .3 increments and
43.0g - 44.8g IMR 4064 in .3 increments

A three shot group was shot at 200 yards prone with a bipod and rear bag for each load. I am not sure where to go from here and was looking for some guidance. Thanks.

Varget results:

<--- A guy shot a .338 and scared the crap out of me on that last shot.

IMR 4064 results:

 

[XTR]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

I'm doing some of the same thing. I'm not an expert but as I understand it you're looking for the spot (range) where your groups vary the least. One of the things hurting you here is not having any velocity data, unless you are not shooing out to 1000. If you are planning to shoot to 1000yds you will typically need at least 2650 fps to reliably get a 175 SMK out to 1000 with out dropping subsonic between 800 and 1000. The area just below mach 1 is a very unstable area for both planes and bullets, you don't want to be there.

It does look like you are way better with Varget than IMR. You know that much.

You seem to be pretty tight from 43.8 to 44.1; however, in my 308 I need around 44.5gr to get to 2650. I did a similar range session last Friday, but the clouds broke late in the day and in the last 2 groups I didn't get chrono data. The last group I did get was that at 44.2gr my MV was 2637 avg with an ES of 29 and an sd of 14.7. My groups at 44.4 and 44.6 didn't record on the chrono. That tells me I need to do another session from 44.4 up to 45 and that I probably need at least 44.5 gr to get the MV I'm looking for.

What program did you use to calculate the group sizes and where can I get it?

 

[jbailey]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What program did you use to calculate the group sizes and where can I get it? </div></div>

On Target.
Get it here: http://stevespages.com/page8b.htm

 

[jbailey]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

To the OP

It looks like Varget 44.4 to 45.0 is a node (tough to confirm with the last group with that flyer).

I say the next step is to load up 10 rounds of 44.4 and 44.7 and see what kind of group you can shoot.

Good luck!

 

[BCP]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

I would've thought 43 and 44 varget. Those 4064 groups are decent but varget sure seems to be tighter.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

At 200 yards, could there have been some wind effects? I like that with 44.4gr to 44.7gr, the POI is roughly the same and the groups are relatively small. If you want the velocity, you could go there.

It also looks like you could explore around 43.0 to 43.2 gr. I have a light 43.0 gr load that shoots great. I wish you had chrony data because it looks like you are getting a higher POI with 43.2 gr that with 44.4 - 44.7 gr. It would be interesting to know what is going on velocity-wise there.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

This article might help out on OCW:

http://www.shell-central.com/Powder1.html

It is written by a friend of mine who really knows his stuff, especially reloading.

We are not looking for the small group per say, but for the group that "stops moving" for a bit thru several charge weights.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This article might help out on OCW:

http://www.shell-central.com/Powder1.html

It is written by a friend of mine who really knows his stuff, especially reloading.

We are not looking for the small group per say, but for the group that "stops moving" for a bit thru several charge weights.

</div></div>

That's a great article that quickly summarizes the three most used methods.

 

[XTR]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

How do you get On Target to work with a scan? I cant figure this one out.

Never mind, there is a newer version

 

[sudnit5]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

Thanks for the advise everyone. I really wish I had access to a chrono, I am going to try and acquire one the next time I go out and shoot. I definitely think the Varget did a better job than the IMR. I will load up some in the 44.4 - 44.7 range and give it a try. I also might try a lighter load just since it grouped really nice. Should I still shoot it at 200 yards?

 

[vman]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

44.1 grains varget produces little vertical spread from the look of things so i would work near that.

Bear in mind you have now fireformed your cases so results may vary on the second and third firing of that brass... depends how close to "virgin" your chamber is. If the cases grow a bit then i would expect the results to change

 

[sudnit5]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">44.1 grains varget produces little vertical spread from the look of things so i would work near that.

Bear in mind you have now fireformed your cases so results may vary on the second and third firing of that brass... depends how close to "virgin" your chamber is. If the cases grow a bit then i would expect the results to change </div></div>

Thanks, I will keep that in mind. I have about 80 more rounds of unused brass left which I will use before using this again.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bear in mind you have now fireformed your cases so results may vary on the second and third firing of that brass... depends how close to "virgin" your chamber is. If the cases grow a bit then i would expect the results to change</div></div>

The point of OCW is to develop a robust load so that even if case volume increases or your charge is off by .05 gr, the load should group about the same.

 

[coues7]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

I'd go with something around 44.5

 

[sudnit5]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

I went back out to the range today to test out the new loads. I loaded ten rounds of 44.4 Varget and 44.7 Varget. I also shot ten rounds of 175gr Federal Gold Metal Match.

Shots were taken at 200 yards using bi-pod and rear bag. I don't know much about load development, but the Federal looks better than the other two.

 

[EricF517]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

Run that 44.1 load again and see what you get with a 10 shot group. Also I would give a go at 44.3 and 44.4 of 4064 to see what that does. Rifles may vary but that was a sweet spot for ES's and SD's with mine and grouped well. Reason I say that is my 44.5 and 44.2 looked very close to yours.

Did you have a flyer with your 44.4 of varget? Reason I ask is that it looks very close to the 43.2

I may have missed it but what rifle are you shooting?

 

[XTR]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

How are you printing your targets from Ontarget? I assume you are using paint or something like that to put the group info on the .jpg files but I cant get ontarget to save except as a .jpg

 

[sudnit5]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

Ontarget puts the group info into the file itself, no paint needed. When you are done, click file-save view as graphic... and it will create the jpg for you with all the stuff with it.

The yellow text at the top was done with Photoshop.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are you printing your targets from Ontarget? I assume you are using paint or something like that to put the group info on the .jpg files but I cant get ontarget to save except as a .jpg

</div></div>

 

[Dionis]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

tag

 

[Dionis]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

sundit5 can you tell specs on your rifle (barrel twist )? Thanks.
I got .308 from apa a couple days ago... I'm doing load development with 175smk and varget as well.

 

[vman]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

sudnit i would not stop looking.

I have finished load development for the time being with my .308 and 155 scenars.

On the weekend three people shot my rifle, each with a 5 shot group, at the same target at 250 yards... all using the exact same load

One shooter obtained a clovered 3 shot group and another 2 holes touching, all in the same vertical plane.

Another shooter obtained a 2 inch group with about 1 inch of vertical spread.

The other shooter obtained an average looking group, the worst of the three.


Point here being that with the same load three very different types of results were obtained with the same load, same rifle, on the same day, within the same 30 minute window.

Dont give up, keep looking, repeat everything a few times if you need to. Eventually you will land on a load that produces superb results.

 

[sudnit5]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

I have a 22" Shilen Select Match barrel with 1:12 twist on a Remington 700 action.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D Ice 308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sundit5 can you tell specs on your rifle (barrel twist )? Thanks.
I got .308 from apa a couple days ago... I'm doing load development with 175smk and varget as well. </div></div>

 

[sudnit5]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

Thanks, I figured this was not going to be an easy process as I am finding out. I need to get a chrono also to make sure everything is consistent.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sudnit i would not stop looking.

I have finished load development for the time being with my .308 and 155 scenars.

On the weekend three people shot my rifle, each with a 5 shot group, at the same target at 250 yards... all using the exact same load

One shooter obtained a clovered 3 shot group and another 2 holes touching, all in the same vertical plane.

Another shooter obtained a 2 inch group with about 1 inch of vertical spread.

The other shooter obtained an average looking group, the worst of the three.


Point here being that with the same load three very different types of results were obtained with the same load, same rifle, on the same day, within the same 30 minute window.

Dont give up, keep looking, repeat everything a few times if you need to. Eventually you will land on a load that produces superb results. </div></div>

 

[CK_32]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

I take it you have a decent stock as well correct??

Cause if your using a standard SPS stock your groups will spread like no other and your load data will just go on for years due to them not being very rigid or pillar bedded or anything.


Also the side to side spread doesnt matter much.. Its the vertical your looking for.. When you find a good window try moving them out to around 400 yards..

Ive seen a ton of amazing 100 to 200 yard loads totally change their tune when put past 400 yards.

 

[sudnit5]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

Yep, a McMillan A5. The action was blueprinted as well. It's a Mark Gordon special!

Shameless plug

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CK_32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take it you have a decent stock as well correct??

Cause if your using a standard SPS stock your groups will spread like no other and your load data will just go on for years due to them not being very rigid or pillar bedded or anything.


Also the side to side spread doesnt matter much.. Its the vertical your looking for.. When you find a good window try moving them out to around 400 yards..

Ive seen a ton of amazing 100 to 200 yard loads totally change their tune when put past 400 yards. </div></div>

 

[Dionis]

Re: 308 175gr OCW Test

I found my rifle (22" barrel) likes 178amax or 175smk with 43.5 g of Varget, Lapua brass, 210m I test it at 100yds 5shot groups around 1/2moa ... I would like to see results of your tests with chrono.