.308 Classic Build - Bullet/Ammo Selection

[rybe390]

I'm in the process of waiting for parts for a .308 build I have in the works. It will be a bighorn origin short, 26" criterion MTU shouldered prefit, manners prs1 with mini chassis, dmr3, 419 hellfire, and trigger tech primary.

My whole purpose of the rifle is to have a rifle I don't really mess with all too much and doesn't chase performance, for days I just want to shoot for the sake of shooting and nothing else. I mess with my other rifles a bunch, this will just stay zeroed with one ammo for basically its whole life. Weekend cruiser to my race car type of gun.

With that, I plan to go deep in factory ammo to start and then load for the rifle.

Is the gold standard for .308 factory still the federal gmm 175 smk? Does the m118lr stuff from Winchester do well? Is the 175smk the golden bullet for handloading, or should I be looking elsewhere?

Again, I'm not chasing anything but good times with this rifle, so consistent performance is the goal. I mess with my 6.5's enough, I want to set and forget this .308.

Looking for any input from those of you with a .308, and bonus points if your use case is similar to mine.

 

[b6graham]

168/175 FGMM

any of the berger factory ammo shoots great as well and leaves you with better brass for reloading (lapua)

it really depends what you use the rifle for and how far you're pushing it

 

[Rob01]

Looks like a good set up but if I were you and looking for long range performance I would be looking at more modern bullets than the 175 SMK. And definitely wouldn’t use a 168 SMK. They are not good for long range. The Hornady 168/178 ELD or the Berger offerings is where I would look. I shoot the 168 ELD in my match rifle and hit out to 1250 yards in matches.

 

[fdkay]

The sierra 169 might be worth a look.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I believe the 308 has been significantly surpassed for the longer distances, but remains an ideal chambering for the utility rifle. I chose to use a barrel that has capability for longer distances, and those barrels can also work for the shorter ones with adjusted bullet weights. For the longer distances, I still have my .260 Rem solution (28"), but in truth, I'll likely be shooting less and less as the future unfolds.

I am aiming to build some ammo scaled around the Sierra 125gr Pro Hunter, and/or the Speer 150gr (GDSP) Gold Dot. Less recoil, and decent velocity translating into better terminal performance at practical distances should be a good tradeoff. The original .308 ball rifle load weight of 150gr seems to be an excellent weight range for expanding projectiles as well. The 175SMK is still a great choice for distance work, but I would prefer to use the Speer 168gr Gold Dot for a utility cartridge component at reasonable carry around distances.

I have never favored short barrels, except for local AR's, and agree with your chosen length. MTU weight is a bit much for me, I like a lighter Palma weight; better balance, easier extended carry.

A practical rifle should have a distinct trigger weight, feather light triggers work well in benchrest scenarios, but not so well in the field.

Stock fit is a crucial measure; don't compromise, and make sure the pull length is best suited to smooth and natural pickup/aiming process.

Weight can be helpful in a precision rifle, but IMHO counting on ballast is somewhat of a band-aid over top of imperfect technique. I have had excellent performance from sporter weight rifles, so long as I give proper attention to technique. The truer advantage of weight is to attenuate recoil in sustained fire.

Greg

 

[redneckbmxer24]

FGMM is the easy button. 175gr works great to 1K and a bit further, 168gr is fine if you’re shooting inside 800 yards.

 

[moosemeat]

The gold standard is still FGMM for factory ammo.
When you start loading for it I would look at berger bullets. Push a 185 the same speed as a 175 with a significantly better bullet. At this point what's the difference when it cost 10 cents more a shot. Or 155s at Mach Jesus with the same BC as a 175 smk.
I don't shoot the hornaday ELD 178s. They sucked bad for me.

 

[kthomas]

FGMM.

.308 is a really fun cartridge. It makes you work for it - it's not ballistically efficient, and the recoil is enough to exploit your fundamentals beyond a moderate degree without being absolutely punishing. It's a great teacher - you have to be on with your fundamentals and wind calls. Regular practice with a .308 makes you a better shooter, IMO, as long as you are practicing the right way.

Sounds like a fun project!

 

[rybe390]

Looks like a good set up but if I were you and looking for long range performance I would be looking at more modern bullets than the 175 SMK. And definitely wouldn’t use a 168 SMK. They are not good for long range. The Hornady 168/178 ELD or the Berger offerings is where I would look. I shoot the 168 ELD in my match rifle and hit out to 1250 yards in matches.

Is the 178 eld as good as the 140 6.5 eld in terms of just working in every rifle...ever?

 

[rybe390]

The gold standard is still FGMM for factory ammo.
When you start loading for it I would look at berger bullets. Push a 185 the same speed as a 175 with a significantly better bullet. At this point what's the difference when it cost 10 cents more a shot. Or 155s at Mach Jesus with the same BC as a 175 smk.
I don't shoot the hornaday ELD 178s. They sucked bad for me.

The 185 juggernaut is appealing. How fast are you pushing the 155's?

All of this said...I'm looking for simplicity on this and marginal gains are the lowest on my list

 

[rybe390]

FGMM.

.308 is a really fun cartridge. It makes you work for it - it's not ballistically efficient, and the recoil is enough to exploit your fundamentals beyond a moderate degree without being absolutely punishing. It's a great teacher - you have to be on with your fundamentals and wind calls. Regular practice with a .308 makes you a better shooter, IMO, as long as you are practicing the right way.

Sounds like a fun project!

This is the exact reason I'm doing this rifle. Already have a 6.5 creedmoor race gun and a 6.5 prc hunting rifle. Time for a classic bolt gun.

 

[moosemeat]

155s out of a 24" barrel at around 2950ish over a magnetospeed. I could probably push them 3000 but have a accurate load.

 

[moosemeat]

Simplicity is order a couple cases of FGMM 175 and call it a day.
Single handhold is varget, 175 smk, lapua case, cci br2. MY load is 42.5 grains. I way my F class midrange loads and drop my practice/fuck around loads.

 

[Rob01]

Is the 178 eld as good as the 140 6.5 eld in terms of just working in every rifle...ever?

I haven’t used the 178 eld. I run the 168 elds. That said all the elds I have used in 6, 6.5, 7 and .30 have all been easy to load for and the factory ammo shot great. You can try some 175 SMK but why would you handicap yourself right out the gate? Much better bullets out there now. I would use the 169s if you wanted to go Sierra.

 

[moosemeat]

I must have the worst luck with Hornaday. The first 178 eld-m's I shot convinced me to order 500. Those shot like absolute dog shit. I ended up having to sort them by length because they varied in bearing surface by .020 of a inch. I contacted Hornaday and they basically said pound sand. I gave away the remaining bullets and didn't shoot Hornaday again until recently, and then just the v max for coyotes.
I remember others having issues around the same time(probably 2017ish).

 

[mark5pt56]

The 185 juggernaut is appealing. How fast are you pushing the 155's?

All of this said...I'm looking for simplicity on this and marginal gains are the lowest on my list

Federal makes a GM load with this bullet.

OP, If I was you, ask yourself two questions
What distance is max?
Do you reload or plan to? Me-I would buy maybe 2-3k of the FGMM(pick bullet based on 1 above)and be done with it, no fuss, just hop in the classic muscle car and cruise up to the pancake joint, enjoying every minute.

 

[Rob01]

By then he will learn what he’s giving up using the FGMM and get better ammo for the rest of the barrels life. Lol

OP if only going 500 or 600 yards regularly then the FGMM will be fine to make some noise.

 

[rybe390]

By then he will learn what he’s giving up using the FGMM and get better ammo for the rest of the barrels life. Lol

OP if only going 500 or 600 yards regularly then the FGMM will be fine to make some noise.

I load a 6.5 creedmoor with 153 a tips and push it to a mile often enough. As mentioned, this isn't chasing performance, I have other rifles for that. Looking for dumb accurate and repeatable performance over the barrel life so I can, as mark5pt56 mentioned, hop in the muscle car and get pancakes haha.

I do appreciate the higher performance options out there. Really just trying to get a feel for the current gold standard, aka the 140 eld 6.5 creedmoor load...but for .308 win.

As for max distance for me, I'll certainly push this into subsonic territory. 1,000 yards is expected on any outing, and I'll likely reach for 1350 on occasion. I shoot in CO, so my yardages might seen far for the cartridge.

 

[Rob01]

You can have easy and performance in the same round. Doesn’t have to be one or the other.

 

[kthomas]

FGMM works fine at distance.

Maybe not the most optimal choice if you are chasing long range BR records, but I've had plenty of success with 168 and 175 FGMM put to 1,200 yards on steel.

 

[Rob01]

Nothing about chasing BR records but having less wind drift and flatter trajectory with better higher BC bullets. Hell he can go shoot some 120grn soft points if he wants but I’m not going to tell him it’s a good idea. It’s not 20 years ago.

 

[kthomas]

Nothing about chasing BR records but having less wind drift and flatter trajectory with better higher BC bullets. Hell he can go shoot some 120grn soft points if he wants but I’m not going to tell him it’s a good idea. It’s not 20 years ago.

It's a .308 for fun. He already has a couple of 6.5mm's that check the ballistically efficient box if that's what he needs.

I used to shoot FGMM ammo all the time at distance - it's a lot of fun, and it helps you get more proficient at calling wind.

I personally enjoy the challenge.

 

[Rob01]

I used to shoot it too. 20 years ago. Lol Hey if he just wants to blast then his choice. He has an expensive rifle and personally I think it’s kind of a waste to feed it lesser ammo but his choice. He could have saved money and got a .223. Lol

 

[moosemeat]

I don't think some of you get it. He wants to buy ammo, have a rifle that zeroed for said ammo, and just go shoot. FGMM accomplishes that. The real question is 175 mk or the 185 juggernaut. If you can find it the jug is 100% the better bullet.
If/when he starts hand loading for it I'm all for just using the best bullet. At that point it's not "Chasing performance" it's "Filling the muscle car with 93 octain".

 

[Rob01]

I get it just fine. The bullets I mentioned are in factory ammo also. Fed ammo is not the only ammo that can accomplish that.

 

[moosemeat]

I agree, but FGMM is generally the ammo that shoots hood in everything. To the point that many, including me , say that if it won't shoot FGMM good it just won't shoot. That is not to say that it is always the most accurate ammo in a particular rifle, just it always(withing reason) shoots. I have not had that result with any other readily available ammo.
Maybe m118lr, but it suffers higher price and the same bullet.
Rob01- not trying to be argumentative. If you know of a load I am overlooking please inform me.

 

[Rob01]

M118LR is not great ammo. It’s ok. If he wants Fed then he can shoot it. When he wants better it’s out there.

 

[moosemeat]

I see you mentioned berger ammo. I agree. I haven't shot much of it, but in the rifle I shot it in it does hammer. Has it been your experience that it shoots as consistent at FGMM across lots?

 

[Rob01]

I was not talking about Berger ammo but the Federal loaded with the 185 Juggernaut. An ammo with a better bc and a bullet known for accuracy.

Buy Gold Medal Berger 308 Win Ammo 185 | GM308BH185

Shopping for the Gold Medal Berger - Learn more about the latest Gold Medal Berger and other hunting or shooting gear at Federal Ammunition.

www.federalpremium.com

 

[moosemeat]

I got that earlier, I was referring to what is better than federal. That's a actual question, not me being a dick. I assume with your experience you have more exposure than most.

 

[Rob01]

I have not personally shot the Federal 185 Juggernaut load but have friends who do and love it. I have shot a bunch of lots of 168 ELDs in three rifles and they were all accurate. He originally asked if Fed 175 SMK is still the gold standard and it’s not in my opinion and neither is the 175 SMk bullet for loading.

If he wants to shoot them then that’s his money to spend. Just trying to help him as consistent ammo and better BC and performance are not mutually exclusive. Having both is possible.

 

[kthomas]

I used to shoot it too. 20 years ago. Lol Hey if he just wants to blast then his choice. He has an expensive rifle and personally I think it’s kind of a waste to feed it lesser ammo but his choice. He could have saved money and got a .223. Lol

Well the OP asked about a "classic" .308 and not a new 6mm wondergun, so I'm assuming that fun is the goal over pure ballistics.

But maybe I'm the one out to lunch

 

[kthomas]

Thankfully there's lots of different ammo that he can use, he's not stuck to just one type of ammo.

 

[Rob01]

Yup. OP buy the old timey ammo to stay “classic”. Get “classic” ballistics and make sure to not load it with any newer loads when you start loading for it. Find an 80s manual and use that and keep it slow. Got to stay “classic”. Lol

But funny he bought all the newest top of the line rifle parts to put together a great rifle but want to stop at ammo?

 

[rybe390]

Yup. OP buy the old timey ammo to stay “classic”. Get “classic” ballistics and make sure to not load it with any newer loads when you start loading for it. Find an 80s manual and use that and keep it slow. Got to stay “classic”. Lol

But funny he bought all the newest top of the line rifle parts to put together a great rifle but want to stop at ammo?

Lol. I'm not actively avoiding ballistic performance. Just looking for the consistent performer I know will last and is considered the gold standard. I don't want a Hornady amax situation where they get discontinued etc.

So, if ballistic performance comes second to readily available, ability to stack deep, and consistency, it comes second, and for me that's okay.

If I was chasing ballistic performance I wouldn't have built a $4,500 .308 winchester.

Some people choose a 6 speed manual over a pdk in a Carrera, though one is objectively faster.

 

[rybe390]

I don't think some of you get it. He wants to buy ammo, have a rifle that zeroed for said ammo, and just go shoot. FGMM accomplishes that. The real question is 175 mk or the 185 juggernaut. If you can find it the jug is 100% the better bullet.
If/when he starts hand loading for it I'm all for just using the best bullet. At that point it's not "Chasing performance" it's "Filling the muscle car with 93 octain".

Sounds like this is pretty much it and you have it dead on. Seems the 185 juggernaut is respected and can be found somewhat easily. I'll see if that's the route I go down.

It's a .308 win at the end of the day. Just want to go shoot it, with a repeatable and readily available round, while I fuss with my other guns.

 

[Rob01]

Lol. I'm not actively avoiding ballistic performance. Just looking for the consistent performer I know will last and is considered the gold standard. I don't want a Hornady amax situation where they get discontinued etc.

So, if ballistic performance comes second to readily available, ability to stack deep, and consistency, it comes second, and for me that's okay.

If I was chasing ballistic performance I wouldn't have built a $4,500 .308 winchester.

Some people choose a 6 speed manual over a pdk in a Carrera, though one is objectively faster.

The amax were replaced with a much better bullet that loads as easily. I shot many amax but wouldn’t go back from the eld. And if you are buying that much ammo and going to “stack deep” then it shouldn’t be an issue no matter what you bought.

And it’s not about chasing ballistic advantage and being compared to a 6 or 6.5. It’s about getting the most from what you have. I have 6 and 6.5s too but doesn’t mean I want to handicap my .308. But in the end it’s your money and time so do what you like. I’m done trying to help out.

 

[308pirate]

I'm in the process of waiting for parts for a .308 build I have in the works. It will be a bighorn origin short, 26" criterion MTU shouldered prefit, manners prs1 with mini chassis, dmr3, 419 hellfire, and trigger tech primary.

Or just get one of these: http://tacticaloperations.com/

 

[rybe390]

Thanks for the help folks!

I'll be looking into the fgmm 175 smk and 185 juggernaut, as well as the hornady eld loadings, either the 168 or 178. The 169smk is intriguing, but lack of factory ammo will probably stop me.

Leaning towards the 185 juggernaut as it is surprisingly impressive, I'm curious to see the velocity from my 26" barrel.

Thanks again for the introductions to new bullets, and this cartridge.

 

[nickw]

Thanks for the help folks!

I'll be looking into the fgmm 175 smk and 185 juggernaut, as well as the hornady eld loadings, either the 168 or 178. The 169smk is intriguing, but lack of factory ammo will probably stop me.

Leaning towards the 185 juggernaut as it is surprisingly impressive, I'm curious to see the velocity from my 26" barrel.

Thanks again for the introductions to new bullets, and this cartridge.

I’ve shot both of these bullets in my 308 and the 185s are really sweet. If you’re going to shoot factory ammo, get the Berger 185 factory load. If you decide to reload for your 308 later on you end up with Lapua brass fire formed to your chamber. If you’re not going to reload, then the Federal 185 Berger load will likely save you some money. Good luck.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

My locale is at a range of 4200ft to 4400ft ASL. and allows supersonic arrival at 1Kyd for what loads would otherwise be subsonic at that distance.

A little extra time playing with the Ballistic Program and altitude values can give one a feeling for which loads are more practical than one might expect.

This is one reason why I consider a 165gr/168gr .308 load to be a usable all around utility cartridge, and am looking more favorably on the 125gr Pro Hunter for a walkabout load. I also consider bullets suitable for .308 to be acceptable for .30-'06.

Greg

 

[xsn10s]

My elevation is 2200 ft and I shoot blm lands out to a mile within a 10 mile radius from home. My local private range is 3 miles from the house. I generally shoot 168 ELDM's now. 175 SMK shot well in my rifle. I'd try 208's but the barrel is 1-12" twist. The 168 SMK's, CC's, VLD's and ELDM's all have made it to 1200 yards in my rifle. I think they are destabilizing somewhere around 1400 yards but haven't confirmed it on paper. I'd shoot whatever floats your boat and have fun. My 308 PSS will probably be my LR predator rifle until I get my 260 AI.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Me, too. My basic 308 loads are either 168gr or 165gr, depending on terminal requirements. I have also used 165 SGK and 168SMK in my 30-06 loads as well, where they have a velocity edge over the 308 way out there. I find that ELDM's, while desirable, are not mandatory around here.

As I sink deeper into my dotage, I have less interest in great distance ("that's a long way to walk...,Sonny..."), and greater interest in less recoil, etc. Hence my desire to work up 125gr loads.

Since I handload about everything I shoot (except for my 20ga shotguns), I like more standardized components, and have recently begun working at converting to W748 for many of my older loads. It seems to be somewhat versatile for a majority of my guns. While more "optimal" loads undoubtedly exist, component availability is a B***h; and W748 loads are at least fair to middlin' for my needs. At my age, 4lb of it may well turn out to be nearly a lifetime supply; as could the 1000 pieces of once fired 308 military brass sitting in my shop.

Who knows..., I don't...

Greg

PS: Where factory .308 ammo is concerned, I like the IMI 7.62x51 168gr NATO Semiauto Match, and the brass is very good for reloading once the Military Primer Crimp is removed. My favorite source for it is SGAmmo. 175gr also. These loads, like FGMM, shoot as well as my handloads; and I haven't ever been able to beat them with my handloads. They work equally well in my 24" 1:10 bolt gun, and 20" 1:10 AR10.