308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

[datguy]

I didn't want to highjack another thread, so I'll ask the question in a new thread.

I'll be buying some "nice" 308 dies in the next month or so. I am torn between the following:

Redding Competition Bushing 3-Die Neck Sizer Set ($215.99) with the carbide size button ($33.49) and Redding's bushings ($23.99ea)

OR

Forster Utra 2-die set (Ultra Micrometer seating die and FL sizing die - $94.99) and Forster Precision Plus Bushing Bump Neck Sizer Die with 3 Bushings ($75.99)

The Forster setup is significantly less money and a lot of guys seem to like the Forster. I appreciate any and all advice. I really don't want to end up owning both down the line.

 

[texasleftychef]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I have both and they both work extremely well. I think that if I was going to get a new set then I would probably go with your Forster setup. I like the neck die knocking the shoulder back and having a range of bushings from the get go. I have a small fortune tied up in the Redding bushings.

 

[YAOG]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: datguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't want to highjack another thread, so I'll ask the question in a new thread.

I'll be buying some "nice" 308 dies in the next month or so. I am torn between the following:

Redding Competition Bushing 3-Die Neck Sizer Set ($215.99) with the carbide size button ($33.49) and Redding's bushings ($23.99ea)

OR

Forster Utra 2-die set (Ultra Micrometer seating die and FL sizing die - $94.99) and Forster Precision Plus Bushing Bump Neck Sizer Die with 3 Bushings ($75.99)

The Forster setup is significantly less money and a lot of guys seem to like the Forster. I appreciate any and all advice. I really don't want to end up owning both down the line. </div></div>

A better choice might be the Redding Type S F/L Match two die set. You get the precision of neck sizing with a full length resize and the amazingly good concentricity and floating seating of the Redding Competition seater.

If you feel you have to stick with the Redding Comp three die setup you really don't need the carbide ball as you will get best results by using no expander ball at all.

 

[johnsta]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Redding has worked great for me.

 

[71firebird400]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Both good companies, with very similar dies. I believe Forster had their seating die out first and then Redding came out with a suspiciously similar version. Honestly I think Redding and Forsters seating dies are close enough that it'd be a draw between the two; might as well save a bunch of money and go with the Forster.

For sizing dies I feel that Redding out of the box is the superior die; I like their expander ball design more. However, Forster offers a service where they'll hone your FL die to suit your fired brass dimensions. This results in a die that works the brass significantly less which should (in theory) minimize runout. Here's a short article on the process, and the author reports <.0015" runout which is about as good as it gets.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

If I were stuck with only one "brand" I'd get the Redding.

Then add a Lee Collet die to the "set". It produces the straightest cases I've seen when neck sizing only and you don't need to use ANY lube.

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I have and use BOTH.... the do identical work....Forster is as good or better than Redding.... and if you need parts.... 1/2 the price....
if I order new.. I order Forster....
bill larson

 

[rkaires]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I have both as well and prefer Forster.

 

[X-fan]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I have both and can't see any difference in runout.
Forster is cheaper so....

 

[red hawk]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Both are top notch...Your choice.

 

[itsnick]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

+1 for Forster

 

[bas402]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Redding gets my vote

 

[SPAK]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Have used both... Go with Forster. As good, cost less, great customer service. I will say that the redding dies "feel" slightly better in the hand as far as quality goes. And that is still very subjective. As far as the end result with sizing and seating concentricty I found no difference between the two.

For the cost and end result I'd vote Forster.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Forster dies + Lee Collet neck sizing die if reloading for a bolt gun.

 

[pmuniz10920]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 402</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Redding gets my vote
</div></div>

+1

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Having used both brands I sold my Reddings and stick to Forster BR dies. And use Lee's collet neck dies rather than any finicky bushing dies.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Redding competition ..

 

[YAOG]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??


There are a lot of folks using both die sets. What matters more than the brand of dies is your personality type and the tools you use to set them up with.

A LOT of adequate hunting ammo has been loaded using nothing more than an inexpensive press and a set of full length sizing dies with a simple universal bullet seater. If this is good enough for you either brand of dies will work fine. If this is you I would suggest you pass on the bushing type dies as you will need some additional tools and effort to make them work reasonably well.

If you are seriously interested in loading rounds well tuned to your rifle again I would say you would likely be pretty happy with either brand dies. The catch is that you select a type of die which is appropriate for your use and level of willingness to do what is required to load the best rounds for your rifle.

I suggested the simple and reliable Redding Type S Full Length Match die set for several reasons. Consistent reliable feeding in all weapons due to consistent fully sized cases. Highly concentric loaded rounds using brass with no turn necks. Very consistent ogive height so bullet jump is consistent minimizing velocity variations not related to powder charges or neck tension.

When using a single stage press Type S F/L Match die sets require fewer steps to load consistently sized very concentric loaded ammunition than more expensive Redding Competition 3-die sets. The Redding Type S F/L die performs case decap, full-length case resize, selectable bushing neck sizing and final neck expansion in a single stroke. Charge the primed case and use the Redding Competition bullet seater and you have a loaded round.

Redding's Competition bullet seater produces the lowest runout loaded rounds even when using brass with less than perfect neck thickness. The Redding Comp seating die allows the seating head to float and being a sliding die fully supports the case and case neck during seating to minimize and even reduce runout. AFAIK the Redding Competition seater is the only seater that works this way.

The Redding Type S F/L Match die set has IMO made the original Redding Competition 3-piece die set redundant for those who prefer to shoot fully sized rounds.

As far as the Forster dies go they can be setup to work great too. Just as with the Redding dies the right measurement tools go a long way to getting them set correctly. The Forster dies are less expensive up front but if you want to shoot fully sized rounds may not be a good choice because Forster does not offer bushing/full length sizing dies. But you can have them hone your F/L does to match your brass though this means you will likely need to have at least two Forster F/L dies and pay to have them honed on top of the need to sort your brass to get neck tension right.

The Forster micrometer bullet seater is also a very good seater and less expensive than Redding's Competition Seater. The Forster micrometer seater is also a sliding die seater design but lacking some important design features. The Forster seater design does not allow the seating head to float as the Redding design does causing or allowing more runout in a finished round than the Redding Competition seater. For most folks though this may not make a lot of difference if shooting a production barreled rifle.

I hope this helps you to figure out what you are going to do. Keep asking questions until you can see a plan forming for your use and needs.

 

[X-fan]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having used both brands I sold my Reddings and stick to Forster BR dies. And use Lee's collet neck dies rather than any finicky bushing dies. </div></div>

Better yet try custom sized Forster sizers (a $10.00 service), go with a 1 thou shoulder bump, and forget the expander ball.

 

[X-fan]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Yaog,

The Redding seater does have some interesting elements, yet I don't believe this makes any difference in loaded ammunition.

The primary issue here is keeping the brass straight and true through the sizing process. If the brass is not already dead nuts true as you seat the bullet no seater can fix this.

In my experience if the brass is near perfectly true almost any bullet seater will produce 0.001 runout or better.

 

[ehparis]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I'd go with Forster which I have with my .223. I bought the two die set of benchrest dies. The seater from this set is what makes it all worth while. Bought mine at MidWAY.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=forster+benchrest+die

Looks like they're currently out of stock of the .308 but this is usually temporary and they are accepting backorders. $69.00.

One thing about Redding: they do make a seater plug for Berger VLD bullets.

 

[datguy]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I already own RCBS FL die set, and Hornady seating die. I bought the Hornady seating die because it has the sliding plug in it that helps align the bullet as it goes in. I use the same Hornday die in my 550 when loading .45acp and I really like it. My COAL varies by a thousandth or so here and there when using this die on my .308 loads. I'm not sure what is causing this.

The usual online outlets are out of stock on the Forster dies. After a LOT of reading, I am thinking about ordering the Lee Collet Die and the Redding Indicator.

I'm on the fence about a micrometer seating die.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[X-fan]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

The instant indicator is a great tool albeit over priced.
I like the convenience and quickness.
Depending on what you want to do there are other less expensive options.

This may fly in the face of other here, but I am not a fan of the collet die.
I don't like how it inconsistently bulges the shoulder and it just would not work with my 223...It either folded the case or provided too low of neck tension. Yes, in theory the collet die allows infinite neck tension adjustment...reality is who knows what neck tension.
Runout is consistent enough (not as low as a well setup Forster or Redding), but sooner or later you still need to deal with headspace. I think keeping consistent consistent headspace is important on a field/tactical rifle...perhaps more so than runout. If you are talking an F-Class gun then maybe.
YMMN

I would order the Forster and just use what you have until it arrives.

 

[datguy]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Hmm.. I'm looking to address neck size and shoulder bump first. I will probably buy the Redding indicator either way down the line. I really like the concept and know I want it.

For now, I'm wanting to get the neck tension and shoulder bump portion sorted out. The Forster collet neck die kit with 3 collets is in stock at MidwayUSA right now.. And the Redding Comp seating die is $10 off right now.. Then all I would need is the Redding body die, right? Crap..

 

[X-fan]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

You don't have to nor should you want to buy all of this shit to start out with. When you can load and shoot sub 1/2" every time you go out then maybe it is time to get some more dialed gear...maybe!

You know there is no accuracy gain in just neck sizing a case right?
A properly tuned full length sizer is all you need for now.
I wouldn't look at bushings, collets, neck sizers, or even competition seaters until you understand what you are doing and why you MIGHT want to do it.
I have loaded enough sub 1/2" loads with conventional dies to know that until you are after that last 1/8-1/4 MOA you are wasting your money.

I have all of the equipment you mention above yet on my most precise rifle (custom 6mmbr) I actually USE a plain Forster seating die (tuned for neck thickness) that I think I spent $50.00 on plus the Forster ultra seater. The gun has shot 0.1" groups...So I'd say the dies are not a problem.

Best advice I can give you is to spend your money on bullets because the other shit matters almost not at all.
I'm sure that is not what you want to hear, but it is the truth.

 

[datguy]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Best advice I can give you is to spend your money on bullets because the other shit matters almost not at all.
I'm sure that is not what you want to hear, but it is the truth.

</div></div>

X-fan, thank you! I have 300 cases. Going to go buy another 200 bullets. I already have 150 or so, primers and powder. And, do some loading and shooting. Sometimes, a guy needs a slap upside the head by someone more experienced. That would be me in this case.

Again, thank you!

 

[Southpaw357]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I love my forster dies. Fl resizer and ultra mic seater. My concentricity gauge shows essentially no runout. Also i use a co-ax press

 

[X-fan]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: datguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

X-fan, thank you! I have 300 cases. Going to go buy another 200 bullets. I already have 150 or so, primers and powder. And, do some loading and shooting. Sometimes, a guy needs a slap upside the head by someone more experienced. That would be me in this case.

Again, thank you! </div></div>

No thanks required.

These days a guy starting out has so much complicated (and expensive) stuff to sort through that it can be near impossible to tell the forest from the trees.

I am at the other end of life and the equipment is no longer an issue, but I find it all makes for a huge distraction that tends to take me away from shooting.
Shooting time comes at a huge premium these days...A guy can't win!

I find myself taking way fewer rifles, a lot less equipment, a lot more bullets, and just shooting more.

 

[YAOG]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yaog,

The Redding seater does have some interesting elements, yet I don't believe this makes any difference in loaded ammunition.

The primary issue here is keeping the brass straight and true through the sizing process. If the brass is not already dead nuts true as you seat the bullet no seater can fix this.

In my experience if the brass is near perfectly true almost any bullet seater will produce 0.001 runout or better. </div></div>

The Redding Competition seater has been shown to actually reduce run-out in loaded no neck turn rounds. AFAIK the Redding Competition seater is the only seater proven to do this. It seems to work pretty well for me as my finished rounds are pretty much perfect.

I have to agree with you on having straight brass. The straighter you start out the better the finished rounds will be. This is why I make a first neck sizing pass on no turn cases in the Redding Comp bushing sizer (without expander) and then a second final neck and full length sizing in a Redding Type S full length sizer die. I've tried it both ways the results lined up with German Salizar's results.

HTH!

 

[X-fan]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Got a source on that or is that you finding?
IIRC that was Redding marketing literature?

Either way I remember reading this some years ago and after my own tests I have seen this to not be true...At least in my gear.
I have never seen case runout improve even slightly and and I frequently check my brass before it goes into the seater and after it comes out. I use a top drawer Starrett indicator (one micron resolution) and if there is a change for the better it can't see it.
Maybe I am doing it wrong?

Using the same measurements as above I can tell no difference between Redding and Forster.

YWMV

 

[Mike_R]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yaog,

The Redding seater does have some interesting elements, yet I don't believe this makes any difference in loaded ammunition.

The primary issue here is keeping the brass straight and true through the sizing process. If the brass is not already dead nuts true as you seat the bullet no seater can fix this.

In my experience if the brass is near perfectly true almost any bullet seater will produce 0.001 runout or better. </div></div>

The Redding Competition seater has been shown to actually reduce run-out in loaded no neck turn rounds. AFAIK the Redding Competition seater is the only seater proven to do this. It seems to work pretty well for me as my finished rounds are pretty much perfect.

I have to agree with you on having straight brass. The straighter you start out the better the finished rounds will be. This is why I make a first neck sizing pass on no turn cases in the Redding Comp bushing sizer (without expander) and then a second final neck and full length sizing in a Redding Type S full length sizer die. I've tried it both ways the results lined up with German Salizar's results.

HTH!</div></div>

Not trying to be argumentative, but what about the Redding seater makes it "proven"? My understanding is that the Redding Comp seater is basically a copy of the Forster Ultra seater that has easier to read marks. I have read about the floating head on the seater- and a lot of damaged seating stems from compressed loads on the Reddings. I haven't seen anywhere where the Redding has been proven to be better than the Forster.

And to the OP- I don't know if you need a micrometer top style die, but I know for me the standard Forster benchrest gave me better results than the RCBS die I was using. If you are loading it on a 550 or seat your bullets to mag length I think the Micrometer top isn't needed.
Also, do you have something to gauge headspace? Sinclair and hornady both make gauges to determine how much you are resizing your brass- these help a lot! They can extend your brass life and save you headaches in the long run.
As far as COAL variation on the 550 there are various ways to "tighten up" the press- but I haven't tried them yet. As long as the bullet is jumping to the lands I haven't had problems caused by slight COAL variations.

 

[YAOG]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got a source on that or is that you finding?
IIRC that was Redding marketing literature?

Either way I remember reading this some years ago and after my own tests I have seen this to not be true...At least in my gear.
I have never seen case runout improve even slightly and and I frequently check my brass before it goes into the seater and after it comes out. I use a top drawer Starrett indicator (one micron resolution) and if there is a change for the better it can't see it.
Maybe I am doing it wrong?

Using the same measurements as above I can tell no difference between Redding and Forster.

YWMV </div></div>

As far as I can recall Redding did not claim anything of the sort in their marketing literature in print or on the web. But if they did I don't know of it as I have not seen this claimed by Redding.

I think the confusion here is that I'm talking about bullet runout. AFAIK the Redding Competition seater does not improve case neck runout just bullet runout.

That said the best documented testing of the Redding Competition bullet seater was done and published by German Salazar in his article <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Seating Die Run</span>out</span> a few years ago. I have see other similar less well thought out testing done that may have shown similar results but the testing methods IMO were not reliable. This was a few years ago and I long ago stopped looking for this info. I did some simple testing and found similar results as Mr. Salazar a few years ago and switched to Redding bushing dies and Redding Competition seater.

HTH!

 

[YAOG]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The instant indicator is a great tool albeit over priced.
I like the convenience and quickness.
Depending on what you want to do there are other less expensive options.

This may fly in the face of other here, but I am not a fan of the collet die.
I don't like how it inconsistently bulges the shoulder and it just would not work with my 223...It either folded the case or provided too low of neck tension. Yes, in theory the collet die allows infinite neck tension adjustment...reality is who knows what neck tension.
Runout is consistent enough (not as low as a well setup Forster or Redding), but sooner or later you still need to deal with headspace. I think keeping consistent consistent headspace is important on a field/tactical rifle...perhaps more so than runout. If you are talking an F-Class gun then maybe.
YMMN

I would order the Forster and just use what you have until it arrives. </div></div>

X-fan,

Do you have a Redding Instant Comparator? As you can see from the photo above I have one in my Dillon 550 and the speed and repeatability is unmatched by any of the caliper based case and bullet tools on the market. The other case and ogive measurement tools I have (Hornaday, Possum Hollow, Sinclar) are not as accurate, not as consistent measuring and not nearly as fast to use and get a useful number from for a variety of reasons I found AFTER I bought them and used them for a while. The price of the Redding Instant Comparator initially seemed a bit high but if you have an extra press available to mount the Redding comparator in you will pretty much never use your other caliper based comparators again. This is what I happened to me anyway.

One of the great features of having a Dillon 550 is I can have both Redding bushing sizers and Redding competition bullet seater in the Dillon 550 and also have the Redding comparator in the same tool to compare whatever I have just done with a known good piece. Very fast measurements that are dead nuts correct and repeatable without waiting or having to switch tools or calipers to use.

I think you are correct about headspace likely being more important than runout for a tactical gun. Certainly more important for factory barrel/chambered tactical weapon.

HTH!

 

[X-fan]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

Yaog,
I have Instant Indicators in every chamber they make to suit my chamberings.
My point was directed to the OP as it is so dam expensive for a new guy starting out and not (at least initially ) required.
A great tool for sure!

I have seen a few others that are less expensive and work just as accurately (maybe not as convenient). Can't find the link for you.

 

[YAOG]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yaog,
I have Instant Indicators in every chamber they make to suit my chamberings.
My point was directed to the OP as it is so dam expensive for a new guy starting out and not (at least initially ) required.
A great tool for sure!

I have seen a few others that are less expensive and work just as accurately (maybe not as convenient). Can't find the link for you. </div></div>

No doubt it is expensive to buy good tools. But good tools with decent care will last forever. I also think that having a few good measurement tools can help a beginning hand loader to improve their loading process. Improving loaded round quality more quickly leads to better shooting sooner due to better affordability of high quality ammunition and more rounds sent down range.

Are you saying there is a comparable dial indicator reloading comparator or are you referring to the simple caliper based tools I already own and find lacking in performance?

 

[X-fan]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

There is other dial indicator based equipment out there.

That said, I never had an issue with a good set of calipers and a comparator...It all comes down to setup. If you are 5thou off the lands you might want more resolution, but I see no reason to set yourself up for failure and would just dial the bullet 50 thou off and tune the load.

Size die headspace can be set with simple blue 3M masking tape. The bolt should close on one layer, but not easily on 2 and definitely not on 3....Crude, but very effective.

 

[throwback]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

If you are going to start investing, Redding Comp would get my vote.

 

[aagifford]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I bought and used a Redding 3 die set, and after using it a while found that all it does is add extra steps and reduce reliability. To improve my process, I then added the carbide size button. But occasionally I had loads that were either too long at the shoulder or too big at the neck, and had to screw around with loads that barely fit. It really sucks to break off your bolt handle, ask me how I know... I finally gave up and bought the FL bushing size die and use the set as a 2 die set.

Definitely, don't bother with a 3 die set, leave that for the benchrest guys. A 2 die set produces great ammo with guaranteed reliability vs. the questionable reliability of neck sized only ammo. I have no opinion on the brands, I have Redding but would use Forster too.

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I own and use both....... they are equal in quality and performence.....
Forster has better cust.service....
I go with Forster when I have to buy new...
bill larson

 

[quartermaster]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

A++ forthe Redding

 

[vman]

Re: 308 Dies - Forster or Redding??

I have both Forster and Redding dies. I really like Forster products just that little bit more and this is especially true with their FL sizing dies.