Range Report 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

[LibertyArms]

I know this has been brought up many times, and i went back and have been viewing all of the threads on this in the history. I have all of the components to build the 308 right now. I am wandering if i should switch out to the 260. Im really wanting to shoot at TVP this summer and want to get this rifle underway. What bullets are you shooting with you 260. The 142 MK? And for TVP your going to have shoots to and over 1k, so should i just throw out the 308 ? i have read that wind is an issue in hills up there. And the 260 seems tp be the better choice.

I know i have no idea what i want or need..lol

 

[SScott]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

If your building a rifle for competition, you should really do a .260. Look real hard at it and you will find out why.
SScott

 

[223ai]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

While I don't know anything about TVP, I am a walking example of how one caliber isn't better than the other if I am not driving the rifle to it's full potential. I say, if you are already all set-up for .308, then run a .308 until you get good enough to notice that you are dropping points because of the caliber, not because of the shooter. Besides that, if you run 2156 smk's or the new 178 Hornady BTHP to proper speeds, you are not giving up too much to a 260.

Just my .02.

Good luck.

 

[hamr56]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

I would personally go with the 260. With that said I think JPipes makes a great point. If you can't shoot the 308 you will not do any better with any other caliber.

 

[bohem]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

The 308 will run just dandy at TVP, you'll be working a lot harder to get the wind right for a hit than guys shooting the sexier performers, but what you'll give up in "ease" you'll gain in learning to deal with the wind.

If you are having a rifle built and haven't chosen the caliber yet then the 6.5mm options are very good, don't rule out the 7mm-08 though. It has great wind characteristics and the bore life is good.

A friend and I have shot a 260 upper on the short and long courses out there with 120, 123, and 140 Amax's. Even in high winds and with the little 120 Amax that 1165yd target isn't safe, I've hit it and my buddy hit it several times in one sitting.

Having shot there several times, the best thing you can do is go out and shoot the courses. If you have a rifle, even a 223 with heavier bullets, go out and try the place, talk to the other shooters, talk to Tom, keep your eyes open and don't be afraid to ask questions.

The place has a pretty good group of guys that are happy to help and enjoy seeing people come out and improve.

 

[sticshooter]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

.260's run circles around .308's period.that being said,components and factory match ammo is much more available in .308.308's are not as finicke to the load they like like a .260, but ballisticly .260's will dominate the .308.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnyDL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.260's run circles around .308's period.that being said,components and factory match ammo is much more available in .308.308's are not as finicke to the load they like like a .260, but ballisticly .260's will dominate the .308.</div></div>

No, shooters win, cartridges don't... It's why there is always a 308 in the Top 5 at Rifles Only / Sniper's Hide Competitions.

if your logic held anyone using a "ballistically" better bullet would always beat a lesser round and it absolutely doesn't work that way. It's the indian not the arrow.

We have seen guys with 18" 308s beat a field of 260s, 243s, 7WSMs, etc... as well we have even had Top 5 guys shooting borrowed rifles with 168gr bullets, because they simply shoot better.

Only when you can crack the Top 10 of any competition with something like a 308 will a better bullet give you an edge, not before.

 

[sticshooter]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnyDL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.260's run circles around .308's period.that being said,components and factory match ammo is much more available in .308.308's are not as finicke to the load they like like a .260, but ballisticly .260's will dominate the .308.</div></div>

No, shooters win, cartridges don't... It's why there is always a 308 in the Top 5 at Rifles Only / Sniper's Hide Competitions.

if your logic held anyone using a "ballistically" better bullet would always beat a lesser round and it absolutely doesn't work that way. It's the indian not the arrow.

We have seen guys with 18" 308s beat a field of 260s, 243s, 7WSMs, etc... as well we have even had Top 5 guys shooting borrowed rifles with 168gr bullets, because they simply shoot better.

Only when you can crack the Top 10 of any competition with something like a 308 will a better bullet give you an edge, not before.

</div></div>never said it was'nt the indian.i know there's people out there who could out shoot me at 1,0000 yards using a .308 even if i was using a .338LM.no dought it's the shooter,i'm talking about the cartridge,not the shooter.by the way,i compete in local tactical matches with a .308.not for the cartridge but for the availability.i have also beat guys before that were much better shooters than me at 1,0000 yard f-class matches on windy day because i was using a 7mmRSAUM and they were using .308's and the wind was beating them up.a "better" cartridge can help a shooter compete against better shooters,espeicailly in the wind,if the better shooter is shooting a .308.a great shooter will work less with a .260 at longer ranges on windy days than with a .308 is all i'm saying.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

In our short barrels even at 2550fps I believe our 260s are still superior to a stock 308 ballistically and in a rifle with 2800fps it's got a bigger advantage.

My vote is for the 260 out to 1200 yards. Beyond that there are a lot better options but of the two you picked I think the 260 has it.

But, I agree it's still up to the shooter to do his part. You have to know your gun and also how to shoot it in all conditions. There was a fella with a 22-250 tie the high score at Rayners last month with Tom Sarver and his 300 Hulk so you just never know. Both shot super well and granted the lil calibers have never done that well before but sometimes the moons align and they guess ( factor in

)the wind perfect and it all falls into place.

Topstrap

 

[vman]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But, I agree it's still up to the shooter to do his part. You have to know your gun and also how to shoot it in all conditions. There was a fella with a 22-250 tie the high score at Rayners last month with Tom Sarver and his 300 Hulk so you just never know. Both shot super well and granted the lil calibers have never done that well before but sometimes the moons align and they guess ( factor in

)the wind perfect and it all falls into place.

Topstrap </div></div>

Thats impressive

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

What works on paper does real fine on paper. In the field, the operator needs to be proficient, or the chambering isn't going to matter.

 

[mwroseberry]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

I went 7mm-08 from 308. I will never go back. This new caliber does not care about the wind and is still at 1000fps at 1mile. You can resize all your 308 brass so there is no reason to buy new. There are also so many bullet weights to chose from its ridiculous.

Don't overlook:
7Wsm
300Wsm
280Rem
284Win on a long action

Good luck,
Merritt

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mwroseberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went 7mm-08 from 308. I will never go back. This new caliber does not care about the wind and is still at 1000fps at 1mile.

Good luck,
Merritt</div></div>

And this is exactly my point from the other thread, wind cheaters aren't unless you shoot in relatively light wind locations. People tend to underestimate the wind because they think their zippy fast caliber is uneffectived by wind. It a common misconception.

Sure a 308 is clearly effected more, but for example if you are using 1 mil with a 308 chances are you'll use about .75 with a 260. At least in our wind that average 12 to 16 mph. It's still effected.

This is why people with a wind cheater don't win, they mistake it for actually cheating the wind and not simply shaving it a bit.

 

[selfbowhunter]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

my vote for the one gun man will ALWAYS be the .308. in the "end of days", i want to be able to scour the ground for ammo and rock on if needs be. you just cant do that with a .260 and never will. most people believe that will never happen but lots of "nevers" have come and gone in the last few years.

chuck

 

[LibertyArms]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

Thanks for all the input. I do understand that the wind still effects both round no matter how you figure it. At this point the only reason i am going to go 260 or look into other 6.5 rouns, maybe the 6.5 creedmore is that the yardages very at TVP. So there are targets in excess of 1k. Not that the 308 cant do it, but seems to be running out of juice at the 800 mark. Somthing with a little flatter trijectory seems like a big help.

The only other question for you guys os OAL. I will have to cram a 142 SMK in the case do fit in a repeater right? so how much case volume to i lose and is it still worth at that point to keep it. I should say is it still sufficent enough, or neeeds to be seated out farther to get the max case capacity im looking for?

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

This is a different take: Since you're asking that question, the question actually is:
Whether a 308 or a 260 is the better round while experimenting with tactical field competition.

Ballistic comparisons clearly show the latter round's performance is superior, but perhaps not appreciably until a shooter becomes accomplished. And once in a while I shoot a friend's 308 and I wonder why I'm dickering with what is supposed to be a superior performing round because of the inherent accuracy of 308. They seem to always shoot well.

Flip a coin on the caliber and get GAP to build a semi (just my opinion), and look forward to having fun.

 

[mwroseberry]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

I understand that wind cheaters aren't 100% effectice but they are much more forgiving. The 308 is a good round but I'm getting much better accuracy and ballistics with my 7mm-08. So I'll never go back. And if the end of days happens I reload and I currently used brass that just happens to have 308 win on the headstamp. You caneasily resize down.

Good luck,
Merritt

 

[sticshooter]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my vote for the one gun man will ALWAYS be the .308. in the "end of days", i want to be able to scour the ground for ammo and rock on if needs be. you just cant do that with a .260 and never will. most people believe that will never happen but lots of "nevers" have come and gone in the last few years.

chuck </div></div>AMEN,that's the only reason i keep my .308.God forbid,but we do live in crazy times and .308's are everywhere.a 20-24" barreled,9-10 pound good shooting .308 makes for the perfect "do all" rifle do to ammo availibility and what it can do.i still think the .308 is a pig,though an accurate one.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RWG818</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know this has been brought up many times, and i went back and have been viewing all of the threads on this in the history. I have all of the components to build the 308 right now. I am wandering if i should switch out to the 260. Im really wanting to shoot at TVP this summer and want to get this rifle underway. What bullets are you shooting with you 260. The 142 MK? And for TVP your going to have shoots to and over 1k, so should i just throw out the 308 ? i have read that wind is an issue in hills up there. And the 260 seems tp be the better choice.

I know i have no idea what i want or need..lol </div></div>

Wind and long distance have been discussed at length already. Not sure how many stages at TVP are UKD. Seems logical that a flatter trajectory bullet has a distinct advantage if rangefinders are not allowed. If they are, I think that advantage is somewhat diluted. I've thought about getting a 260 but came to the conclusion the ballistic advantages won't compensate enough if i'm a crap shot. I might as well stick to my 308 until such a time as the advantages of the 260 will bring me incremental points, not the perception of incremental points.

 

[RobertB]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

I built a rifle just for TVP. Iwent .260 I like it alot. 142 SMK over 4831SC is going good for me. Good luck, I love that range. Get Tom to build you a gun if you want a shooter. I can't find any flaw in my TVP rifle ( and I've looked hard) It just seems to be the perfect rifle for me and that range. Back home I like my shorter rifles but a .260 at TVP will not hold you back Good luck

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

Let's see:
Tiger Valley Precision?
Tactical Valley Puncture?
Tennessee Valley Precision?
Tennessee Valley Punks?
Tiber Valley Practical?
Tiger Valley Practical?
Texas Victory Pissoff?
Teeny Vici Pici?
Tornado Valley Pistols (and rifles too)?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

Just to clarify,

The 260 is a great cartridge that has only gotten better, back when this site first started Greg L advocated for the 260 and this was around 2001. To the point we got 5 of the discontinued 10FPs from Savage for about $250 each. We then converted them to the Ghost Dancer and shot them on several outings.

it proved valuable and I even have one of the very first Sniper's Hide Rifles this site did in 260.. the Headhunter, which is an absolute laser.

Over the years it has proven itself in competition for sure. I consider it a reloader's round more than a general user. But over the last 2 years a lot more factory options have become available for match grade ammo, which has helped.

Now, the 6.5CM is a great substitute for people who are not into reloading, very similar with good affordable match ammunition, with the same qualities in a different cartridge, so there are definitely options out there.

For the average user, or a new up and coming user, the 308 offers a lot of positive learning, as well there is so much information on the 308 its impossible to get lost. It's good, it's accurate and only falls down slightly at 900 & 1000 for most rifles. <span style="font-style: italic"> (Chronographing a lot of loads, many people are actually under 2600fps in guns even with 24" bbls or longer)</span> But again, thanks to Hornady and others, new blended powders the 308 is pushing faster again and almost evens the score. <span style="font-style: italic">(My 22" Valkyrie is getting 2770fps from the last test lot from Cor Bon) </span>

Not everyone can take advantage of the ballistic improvements, so I always recommend learning on a 308 and then moving up as your skills progress, but if you only wanted one cartridge, and you are fairly proficient at reloading, then the 260 could be very good round.

 

[LibertyArms]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

Thanks for all the input. Im going to build a 260 bolt gun, and build a 308 gas gun on my lower as funds alow. I do reload and after talking to several people on this, i will start with the 260 from the get go, and learn it. I will build it with a longer barrel for the competitions, and do a shorter 308 later on.

 

[ejd049]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's see:
Tiger Valley Precision?
Tactical Valley Puncture?
Tennessee Valley Precision?
Tennessee Valley Punks?
Tiber Valley Practical?
Tiger Valley Practical?
Texas Victory Pissoff?
Teeny Vici Pici?
Tornado Valley Pistols (and rifles too)?
</div></div>

Maybe Thunder Valley Precision?

 

[Topstrap]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

RWG, just jesting with ya but long barrel doesn't necessarily mean better shooting gun? Possibly a tad more velocity but not always more accurate. Just something to think about.

Topstrap

 

[LibertyArms]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

yea, i know. I was going to build a 24", but if i do a 260 bolt gun, ill go 28 for the velocity. at thnder valley from what im told, your diven to each shooting pos. so no carrying. i would rather have the velocity i think, and it can always be shortend if need be

 

[mm509]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

I have had both, but just for clarification I am no expert. I really like the 308 for all the reasons listed above, good accuracy, ease of good match ammo, and so on. That being said, when it came time to build a rifle...I went 260, because I had became fairly profecient in reloading, had ran my 308 past 1000y consistently and was amazed at the drops, and did quite a bit of research on higher B.C. projectiles and what they do. Upon recieving my 260 and working a load for it, I started to stretch its legs and all I could say is wow. My dope for a 155SMK out of the 308 was 13.2 mils at 1k, with the 260 I am at 8.2 mils at 1k. That equates to 15 feet at 1k, and the wind effects my projectiles less.

With that information being said, if I could go back in time and start with a 260? Not a chance, because the 308 provided me the the knowledge required to engage long range targets. At this point the 260 just makes it a little bit easier. The 260 provides me with a much larger danger space at distance, allowing me to miss range a little bit more than the 308 ever could.

About the barrel length issue, longer is not a necessity for accuracy. I watched SSSamurai engage targets out to 750y with a 18" or 18.5" barreled 308. I have engaged targets to 1k with a 20" barrel. I went 22" on my 260 mainly for a little more velocity. But velocity doesn't hit targets, accuracy does.

 

[van]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

RWG818-

Whats the best caliber for TVP? I guess that depends on the shooter.

The Intimidator has been won with a .223 against shooters that had better rifles. The whole thing is to practice/train with that rifle as much as you can when you decide what you want to use.

van

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: van</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RWG818-

Whats the best caliber for TVP? I guess that depends on the shooter.

The Intimidator has been won with a .223 against shooters that had better rifles. The whole thing is to practice/train with that rifle as much as you can when you decide what you want to use.

van</div></div>

this is impossible, the computer says ballistically inferior bullets like the .223 cannot beat a superior round like the 260, 243, 7WSM, you are making this up.

 

[van]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

Computers huh? Dedicatation to learning what one has and using it. I've had had my ass smoked several times for not sticking with one rifle all the time. At TVP I have seen several rifles and several calibers. The shooter that does the best is the shooter that knows their rifle.

With that being said,I do have a .260Rem.,.308Win.,.223A.I. and a .300 Hulk. I would pick the .300 Hulk over any of my other calibers. The .260Rem is new to me. I have thought of having one for awhile now. Tom Sarver had my barreled action sitting there. It was waiting for a .30 1:9 twist barrel to be put on. Tom calls me says why not try a .260Rem. The decision was easy for me. .260 now. I thought it would be an excellent short course caliber. It may help with some of the varibles. The scores at TVP have shown the shooters using a .260,other than their .308, do better.

Caliber is no subsistute for practice/training though.


van

 

[Lowe Left]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnyDL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my vote for the one gun man will ALWAYS be the .308. in the "end of days", i want to be able to scour the ground for ammo and rock on if needs be. you just cant do that with a .260 and never will. most people believe that will never happen but lots of "nevers" have come and gone in the last few years.

chuck </div></div>AMEN,that's the only reason i keep my .308.God forbid,but we do live in crazy times and .308's are everywhere.a 20-24" barreled,9-10 pound good shooting .308 makes for the perfect "do all" rifle do to ammo availibility and what it can do.i still think the .308 is a pig,though an accurate one. </div></div>

I just sold my .308 and now I'm worried I won't find ammunition laying around. Crap! Maybe I'll just pick up that M240 that is sitting here with all this ammo laying around. Oh look there's a hair-less doberman snarling at me. WTF!? Why did I sell that .308!!!

 

[Pat M]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

.260

 

[skinnypitt]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

I really love my 308 but i like my 260 better for 1k.
No need to go longer than 26 inch barrel though. I am pushing 140VLD at 2815fps with 47.5gr H4831SC out of necked down 7-08 winchester brass. I really like the KMW chambering that Surgeon did for me. I have never had problems with vertical dispersion but the wind still gets me though, especially when it is switching.
Like a lot of people have said here practice (knowing your equipment) is most important.

 

[KPK]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

I was in the same boat. Building a custom rig and putting some good money in it. I decided to go with the .260 after I already had the .308 barrel, etc.

I just have a hard time spending $3,500 on a .308 when I could go .260 for the same money and better performance. Technics/ability aside...

 

[dwt]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

.260

 

[LibertyArms]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

The more i think about this and read stuff, the debate continues everywhere. many have posted that the 308 would be the last gun they own, and i agree. I have a 308 with a 22" bbl that would prob be the last one as well. It is my go to rifle. But when i started looking into these matches i was thinking that somthing with a little better ballistics propeties might be better. Now, i have always shot 308, always had a few at one time. The more i look into this, i may just be better to go 7 WSM, and be done all togeather. The thing is each caliber brings its own pros to he table, and i just wasent sure which to go with. And being that i have always shot 308 and still oldfashioned, i never jumped to the sleek bullut calibers yet. I should have asked the questions in a different way, What is going to be the Better all around tactical competition caliber in the 6.5-7mm bullet. But that would open up a whole nother can of worms lol. Thanks for all the input

Thanks for all your input

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

All things being equal if a shooter is very good at what he does BOTH cartridges will do wonders out to 1000 yards. After that the .260 will out perform the .308 hands down. Perfect example this weekend. I was testing some new Berger 140 VLD's so I snagged my buddy and ask him to spot. I was shot for shot from 200 yards to 1200 on 12"x 12" steel plates. Then I said, Spot me at the mile...I dialed in 18 MOA of left wind and shot. My bullet impacted 2 moa right. I corrected and shot again..impact was mid left corner in the dirt. I corrected.. shot a third time and struck the plate. 20 moa of wind and 73 moa elevation.
I will say the .308 is one of the BEST cartridges a shooter can choose for our great sport. I will teach you a lot about wind and trajectory. But if a seasoned shooter shot the "Intimidator" 4 times in a row with a .308 and 4 times in a row with a .260 he would beat himself everytime with the .260. I can say this because I've seen it dozens of times.
The .308 will hold it's own in the hands of a good shooter against a new guy with a .260. But two equal shooters..one with a .260 and the other with a .308 there will be only one winner.

 

[sermonator]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

All the good things said about the .308 are all true. But if were not having to scrounge brass to defend our homeland from violent hoards, .260 for all the reasons given above. If it just about shooting and competition (as oposed to homeland security), there's a reason that .260s dominates .308s at most long range events. It's even more true if you decide to shoot something like the Steel Safari they do in NM every year. Unknown distances, ranged and shot in varing conditions and positions is a challenge for even the best shooters. 6.5 bullets give you an greater margin of error for both wind and range. If you can't shoot it won't matter, but every little bit helps.

 

[5RWill]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

Lowlight, out of curiosity what grain bullet were those Corbon's your getting 2770fps on out of a 22" barrel?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

175...

 

[5RWill]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

Thats awesome, hell i'm hoping for an accurate load with a 175 @ 2700+.

 

[mwroseberry]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats awesome, hell i'm hoping for an accurate load with a 175 @ 2700+. </div></div>

try 2000mr from alliant

 

[ar-don71]

Re: 308 or 260 for competition @ TVP

get both.
I have 2 308s and 1 260 with one more 260 on the way. you cant go wrong with either.if i had to choose one it would be the 260.my 260 will hold tighter groups at 600+ than either of my 308s. it shoots lapuas 108,123 and 139 and the 142mk lights out.the only downside with the 260 is shorter barrel life thats what ive be told.