308 or 6.5CM

[smvmarine]

Hey guys, been a member here for a while just gathering knowledge. My question I've got is I'm building a Precision AR10 hunting rig off of a Mega Maten receiver set. I've got a 20" 11.25 twist 308 Krieger getting spun up by Craddock Precision as we speak. Acutually it should be getting shipped to me with in the next couple of days. I've got a Kahles K624i to put on top (yes I know a little over kill). I can't help but think I made a mistake and should have went with a 6.5 creedmoor instead. This gun will purely be for hunting hogs, deer and what ever else I can find here in Oklahoma with occasional trips to Wyoming. Just curious if you guys think I should put the barrel up for sale here on the PX and order a 6.5 or just keep it and be happy with what I've got.

Shannon

 

[Cornholeo]

6.5CM IMHO, ballistics are far superior and ammo availability is not an issue any more if you do not reload.

 

[samnev]

The thing that keeps me from getting the 6.5 Creedmoor is the short barrel life compared to the 308. However if I was doing a lot of 1000 yard. + shooting my choice would be different.

 

[Bacarrat]

Barrels are consumables. If you want performance out of a caliber, you have to pay the price somehow. Every single .308 that I have owned, I have sold within a couple hundred rounds. If the military wasn't shooting the .308/7.62, it would be a dead round right now.

 

[...]

Barrels are consumables. If you want performance out of a caliber, you have to pay the price somehow. Every single .308 that I have owned, I have sold within a couple hundred rounds. If the military wasn't shooting the .308/7.62, it would be a dead round right now.

ah yes.....despite the fact that it is probably the most popular hunting round.....everyone would just throw their guns away i suppose.

6.5CM ballistics are not VASTLY superior to 308......they are SLIGHTLY superior.

for a target rifle, yes, i would choose 6.5cm.....because it is slightly better ballistically

for a hunting rifle.....i would still choose .308......you can find .308 in every gun shop and sporting goods store in america, which is helpful if you ever run out or forget ammo on a hunt.........also have vastly more bullet selection in .308 than 6.5

also for hunting, you arent making 700-1000yd shots........you are likely shooting at 300yds or less, you arent going to notice a significant difference between 6.5 and 308 at those distances.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I compete with a Mega Maten in both a 20" 308 (matches that require 308) and a 22" 6.5 Creedmoor. I also hunt mule deer in SE Montana where shots can be long at times and here I choose to use a 6.5 creedmoor in a bolt action. To answer your question, there are a lot of "it depends" responses that I would have.

First let me say why I don't use a Semi for hunting.
-Comparing my groups between my bolt rifle and semi (both of which I use for PRS style matches) how ever tight I can group rounds on target at distance with the bolt under field conditions/positions the semi tends to group two or more times that measurement, I am just no where near as consistent of a shooter with the AR.
-Being in and out of vehicles to move from one area to the next several times a day and while patrolling on foot in some very hilly terrain, I do not chamber a round until I have decided a particular deer is the one I wish to take. An AR makes to much noise to be charging in the field, IMO.
-I don't like sacrificing the 150-200fps in a AR for the speed of a follow up shot in either caliber.

With the above said, if your shots are inside 200 yards you will not see a difference between the two. The further you go out the more you will need to be on your wind call but the 6.5 will provide about 20-25% less error if you underestimate. Wind is the reason I switched to the 6.5 a few years ago, drop I could care less about as I have a rangefinder for that and a ballistic's program that will put me with in a tenth of a mil of true. I always cap my maximum range to where the bullets impact velocity drops below 1800fps as that tends to be the floor for reliable expansion on many bullets.

So depending on how you hunt, and how far you intend on taking shots both could be good choices of calibers. Just be sure to put in the time required to become proficient at those distances from field conditions and positions you will be in on the hunt.

 

[SlimBlundt]

If you're hunting multiple medium sized species with an AR, there are several reasons why 308 is your friend:
1) .308 brass is CHEAP. Once-fired Lake City brass is great and 14-15 cents apiece versus 80 cents to $1 for 6.5 CM brass. If you're in the sticks shooting at hogs with a rifle kicking brass this way and that, you won't be digging around in the brush for your 308 brass.
2) There are more loads and components available in 308 (although there's lots of great stuff for 6.5 now)
3) Barrel life tends to be pretty damn good with a 308.
4) You already have a damn fine 308 bbl

I desperately want to get into a 6.5 CM but the AR that I deer hunt with is staying 308. 6.5 and it's pricey components will be reserved for my "someday" bolt rifle.

 

[padom]

Pricey components? 6.5 projectiles cost the same or less than 308. 6.5cm match ammo costs the same or less than 308 match ammo. Hornady brass costs $0.55/ea or you can use LC 308 brass. I have 500 LC 7.62 converted to 6.5cm for my AR10. You can convert 243, 260 or 308 brass to 6.5cm easily.

 

[SlimBlundt]

Pricey components? 6.5 projectiles cost the same or less than 308. 6.5cm match ammo costs the same or less than 308 match ammo. Hornady brass costs $0.55/ea or you can use LC 308 brass. I have 500 LC 7.62 converted to 6.5cm for my AR10. You can convert 243, 260 or 308 brass to 6.5cm easily.

Now imagine paying $75 for 500 pieces of brass and NOT having to reform it...
How many steps are invlolved in transforming 7.62 to 6.5? (legitimate question, I don't know much about it)

 

[californiasushi]

Pricey components? 6.5 projectiles cost the same or less than 308. 6.5cm match ammo costs the same or less than 308 match ammo. Hornady brass costs $0.55/ea or you can use LC 308 brass. I have 500 LC 7.62 converted to 6.5cm for my AR10. You can convert 243, 260 or 308 brass to 6.5cm easily.

I'll bite since I actually own rifles in both these cartridges. Match ammo is absolutely cheaper in .308 than 6.5 Creedmoor. With 6.5 Creedmoor you're looking at $23+ for a box of 20 rounds. It's not too hard to pick up 3.08/7.62 FGMM for $1/rd. If you're okay shooting Prvi you're looking at 70-75 CPR depending on the amount you buy.

.308 bullets are also more reasonably priced. Hornady got rid of their 6.5 140 AMAX projectiles and now their ELD-M/ELD-X bullets are priced a couple cents higher, 33+ cents per bullet. You can get Hornady 178 BTHPs (only slightly lower BC than the ELD-Ms) or Nosler 175 RDFs for 29 cents per bullet. Obviously if you're shooting Juggernauts or something the price will be higher, but it's not like 140 Hybrids are cheap either.

Let's be real and say that mostly everyone who shoots an intermediate 6 or 6.5 uses H4350. For .308 the range of powders people realistically use is much greater and so you have a better chance to pick up some powder at a discount. For a long time Long Range Match surplus powder was available and you could get a great deal on 8# kegs.

We'll avoid the price of brass since you mentioned using .308 brass and of course primers are the same.

The big thing really is barrel life though. We can be generous and say a 6.5 Creedmoor gets 3,000 rounds of barrel life. Without threading the muzzle, a nice barrel and chamber/install might be $600. That's about 20 cents per round of barrel life. We can be conservative and say a .308 gets 5,000 rounds of barrel life. For the same price of a barrel and install, that's about 12 cents per round of barrel life.

6.5 is obviously ballistically superior to .308, although the difference isn't as drastic as people make it seem. It obviously also recoils less than .308, although I don't think the difference there is as drastic as people make it seem either. I've shot our 6 Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, and .308 rifles, all similarly configured, similar in terms of weight, braked, shooting similarly stout loads back to back to back on numerous occasions and 6.5 IMO recoils only a little less than .308. It's 6 Creedmoor that really offers a sizable reduction in recoil. Those are the two main areas IMO where 6.5 Creedmoor is better than .308, but I don't think it's better than .308 at everything. I think .308 is better in terms of ammo options (FMJ, specialty ammo, defensive ammo, etc), factory rifle options, barrel life, and yes, price.

 

[padom]

Now imagine paying $75 for 500 pieces of brass and NOT having to reform it...
How many steps are invlolved in transforming 7.62 to 6.5? (legitimate question, I don't know much about it)

Run it through a 6.5cm die then neck turn. I pay $130 for 1xLC 7.62 brass. I dont know anyone that shoots LC brass without prepping it either. Unless your just blasting off ammo and not looking for any accuracy. LC can be turned into very nice brass after reaming the flash hole (burs in almost every case), reaming the military crimp, annealing since they are usually machine gun brass blown out farther than a standard 308 chamber. Thats why most dont shoot LC 7.62 in a precision bolt gun due to all the prep work required. Some do, but most dont.

 

[SlimBlundt]

Run it through a 6.5cm die then neck turn. I pay $130 for 1xLC 7.62 brass. I dont know anyone that shoots LC brass without prepping it either. Unless your just blasting off ammo and not looking for any accuracy. LC can be turned into very nice brass after reaming the flash hole (burs in almost every case), reaming the military crimp, annealing since they are usually machine gun brass blown out farther than a standard 308 chamber. Thats why most dont shoot LC 7.62 in a precision bolt gun due to all the prep work required. Some do, but most dont.

Excellent point. Swaging pockets is a very quick process but an extra step nonetheless. But if you're using LC brass for 6.5 CM, you've now added the step of resizing. From what I'd read, I thought LC had to be resized from 7.62 to 7 to 6.5 CM but i've never tried it. LC 7.62 also needs to be trimmed after the 2nd use so you'll be trimming cases either way.

To the OPs point, you may be overthinking the value of 6.5 over .308 for hunting unless you shoot a lot of critters beyond 5-600 yards.

 

[padom]

I'll bite since I actually own rifles in both these cartridges. Match ammo is absolutely cheaper in .308 than 6.5 Creedmoor. With 6.5 Creedmoor you're looking at $23+ for a box of 20 rounds. It's not too hard to pick up 3.08/7.62 FGMM for $1/rd. If you're okay shooting Prvi you're looking at 70-75 CPR depending on the amount you buy.

.308 bullets are also more reasonably priced. Hornady got rid of their 6.5 140 AMAX projectiles and now their ELD-M/ELD-X bullets are priced a couple cents higher, 33+ cents per bullet. You can get Hornady 178 BTHPs (only slightly lower BC than the ELD-Ms) or Nosler 175 RDFs for 29 cents per bullet. Obviously if you're shooting Juggernauts or something the price will be higher, but it's not like 140 Hybrids are cheap either.

Let's be real and say that mostly everyone who shoots an intermediate 6 or 6.5 uses H4350. For .308 the range of powders people realistically use is much greater and so you have a better chance to pick up some powder at a discount. For a long time Long Range Match surplus powder was available and you could get a great deal on 8# kegs.

We'll avoid the price of brass since you mentioned using .308 brass and of course primers are the same.

The big thing really is barrel life though. We can be generous and say a 6.5 Creedmoor gets 3,000 rounds of barrel life. Without threading the muzzle, a nice barrel and chamber/install might be $600. That's about 20 cents per round of barrel life. We can be conservative and say a .308 gets 5,000 rounds of barrel life. For the same price of a barrel and install, that's about 12 cents per round of barrel life.

6.5 is obviously ballistically superior to .308, although the difference isn't as drastic as people make it seem. It obviously also recoils less than .308, although I don't think the difference there is as drastic as people make it seem either. I've shot our 6 Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, and .308 rifles, all similarly configured, similar in terms of weight, braked, shooting similarly stout loads back to back to back on numerous occasions and 6.5 IMO recoils only a little less than .308. It's 6 Creedmoor that really offers a sizable reduction in recoil. Those are the two main areas IMO where 6.5 Creedmoor is better than .308, but I don't think it's better than .308 at everything. I think .308 is better in terms of ammo options (FMJ, specialty ammo, defensive ammo, etc), factory rifle options, barrel life, and yes, price.

If your going to compare bullets between 308 and 6.5cm compare the same type of bullet in both calibers for an apples to apples comparison. You cant compare the 178BTHP bullet to the 140 ELD, you have to compare it to the 140BTHP. Otherwise you should be comparing the 178 ELD to the 140 ELD.

308 178BTHP - $0.28/per bullet 0.530BC
6.5cm 140BTHP- $0.24/per bullet 0.580BC (Cheaper and higher BC)

308 178 ELD-M - $0.30/per bullet 0.547BC
6.5cm 140 ELD-M - $0.30/per bullet 0.610BC (Same price and higher BC)

Lets talk powders. No, not everyone who shoots intermediate for 6mm or 6.5mm uses H4350. There are many powders out there that people just either dont know about, havent tested or dont want to take the time to test because their buddy or the forums told them H4350 was the only 6.5cm powder in town. Hint, check out Frank's recent testing with his 6.5cm using IMR 4166. Over 3000 fps, 0.5moa and better accuracy with a 120 or 130g bullet shooting to 1700yds.

Myself and many many others also use IMR4451, Varget, AR Comp and H4831sc.

Barrel life.. Have you shot out a 6.5cm barrel to tell me you only got 3000rds out of your barrel? If so, what barrel was it? I have now had 3 6.5cm Bartlein barrels. My gunsmith is still shooting a Bartlein 26" barrel that currently has just over 5600rds on it that still shoots a 5x5 agg in the .3's (see below). Now, to be fair the barrel has been set back but I have seen barrels first hand go much farther than 3000rd and still shoot great. Comp guys that pull their barrels at 3000-4000 rounds are shooting hot loads and dont want to sacrafice a drop of accuracy. They want to win. Different story then guys shooting local comps here and there, target shooting or hunting.

I have nothing against 308, I had 3 and sold them all in favor of .264 calibers a few years ago. The availability and popularity of 6.5cm has grown over the past few years making it the hottest caliber on the market. Especially with the release of the RPR. 6.5cm doesnt have any real advantages over 308 inside 500yds, except maybe some recoil. Put a good brake on there and the recoil advantage grows. But past 500yds the 6.5cm shines. And that less recoil at distance really helps in staying on target to see hits and call misses. Also the BC of the bullets and flatter shooting trajectory make for higher percentage of hits at distance as well. Especially when the wind is blowing. Ill take my 8.0mil to 1000 vs 11.1mil (my previous 308 go to 178Amax/4064 load) all day long.


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[smvmarine]

Thanks for all the info guys!! I do think I'm overthinking the issue here. I'm just gonna stick with the 308 for now as I don't want to loose my ass selling it, and maybe in the future get a 6.5 spun up for it. Hunting here in Oklahoma shots won't be any further than 500 yards as I hunt in the southeastern part of the state and its pretty thick down there. Also reloading isn't an issue as I don't reload (would love to). I just feel it would be too expensive to get set up and running for a rifle cartridge. I'm gonna try ammo from Prime & Copper Creek and see which one I get the best groups with. Anyone have any insight between those or just need to try both and see what gun likes.

 

[BAT_Boy]

Good info here. I won't be shooting enough distance to appreciate the ballistics of the 6.5 Creedmoor but my 65 year old shoulders need relief from 30 years of shooting a 308 bolt gun. Having an LR 6.5 Creedmoor Gen I upper as well as a Deviant 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun built for the transition. Already built a 6.5x47 Lapua so I am good on 6.5s for now.

 

[STI_1911_Guy]

If its for hunting and shooting in general of less than 500yds you wont notice much of a difference between the two. 30 caliber "hits" harder than the 6.5 on game, Im talking real world experience not ballistic tables. I have used both extensively and according to my records i have killed 33 deer with the 260 remington in my dpms ar-10 mostly with the 123 and 140gr amax. I have harvested more with the 308 and i will argue all day any day with anybody that the effects on game from the 30 caliber bullet is enough to usually notice a difference especially on blood trails (bullets/animals/conditions blah blah blah are all variables, yea i know). Im not talking every single time as this is not true but generally speaking the previous statements hold true to my experience. Barrel life is as subjective as a topic as there is with many variables coming into play. In all reality you wont notice a difference unless you go to a prarie dog town and cut loose. Availability and cost change everyday for everything, yes 308 components will be easier to find in general but as long as you buy more than a 100 at a time you will likely be ok till you find more. Recoil will be noticeably more with the 308 but thats why they make brakes.

 

[bigjake83]

I've switch back to Shooting​ 308 specifically because the lack of "PROVEN"available reloading components, and yes there are other powders that "CAN"work in the 6.5 Creedmoor, but is still considered for all intensive purposes a new cartridge. The .308 has several decades of R&D behind it, and I know I could walk into any gun store any time and find a powder that works perfectly for the .308

Brass and bullets are always available, and if primers are hard to come by LAPUA even makes brass for .308 with the small primer pocket.

 

[Triggered]

Just throwing my .10c on what has already been spoken, and beating a slightly dead horse possibly, but I would only recommend the 308 if you're looking at hunting purposes exclusively.

Under 1000yds and you'll be good to go on all the species you listed originally. Paper pounding at longer ranges, sure the 6.5 would had been a good choice, but I'll take my 30 cals any day when it comes to walking woods or shooting several hundred yards out on game. Zero hesitation there.

The brass and bullets are everywhere; walk into any Walmart (worst case scenario) the night before a hunt and you will certainly find something.

I wouldn't be concerned in already selling the barrel off.