308 reload fits ar10's but not a Savage 308 bolt rifle

[MAHLMAN]

OK I have yet to get my hands on the Savage or one of the "does not fit" rounds. I check with a Dillon case gauge pretty regularly when loading so I am wondering if the OAL of the rounds are too much for the Savage chamber. Where should I start looking for an answer?

 

[conditionzero]

Usually the opposite. For a crimped gas gun, the OAL would be well within SAAMI. Where on a bolt gun you can stretch them out and run VLD's. Can you talk more about "does not fit"? As in, it will not enter the chamber? Or is it getting hung up when chambering from the internal magazine (if it has one, if not, what magazines on the savage?)?

 

[hafejd30]

Huh?

Is this your ammo or rifles?

If the chamber is larger, longer or the lands are tighter on one than the other then the longer round won’t fit in the shorter/tighter chamber.

Likewise the shorter/tighter round will have to much room and cause pressure issues or case head separation in the longer chamber

I wouldn’t try using the same reloads in both guns unless the chamber is close. Then load to the smaller/short spec chamber and hope it shoots in the other

If I’m understanding what you’re even asking?

 

[nn8734]

OK I have yet to get my hands on the Savage or one of the "does not fit" rounds. I check with a Dillon case gauge pretty regularly when loading so I am wondering if the OAL of the rounds are too much for the Savage chamber. Where should I start looking for an answer?

Why would you assume one load tailored in all respects (external dimensions, components, powder/primer selection, charge weight) to one rifle would be a drop-in deal for another one?

Sometimes it happens and you luck out but most of the time it doesnt. Your default assumption should be that ammo hand loaded for one rifle is not interchangable with any others until you validate that it is.

 

[MAHLMAN]

Usually the opposite. For a crimped gas gun, the OAL would be well within SAAMI. Where on a bolt gun you can stretch them out and run VLD's. Can you talk more about "does not fit"? As in, it will not enter the chamber? Or is it getting hung up when chambering from the internal magazine (if it has one, if not, what magazines on the savage?)?

According to the owner the bolt will not close but they work fine in his AR

 

[MAHLMAN]

Huh?

Is this your ammo or rifles?

If the chamber is larger, longer or the lands are tighter on one than the other then the longer round won’t fit in the shorter/tighter chamber.

Likewise the shorter/tighter round will have to much room and cause pressure issues or case head separation in the longer chamber

I wouldn’t try using the same reloads in both guns unless the chamber is close. Then load to the smaller/short spec chamber and hope it shoots in the other

If I’m understanding what you’re even asking?

Yes this is one of the things that came to mind. How do I check this? Some sort of Go no go gauges?

 

[308pirate]

Oh dear............

 

[MAHLMAN]

Why would you assume one load tailored in all respects (external dimensions, components, powder/primer selection, charge weight) to one rifle would be a drop-in deal for another one?

Sometimes it happens and you luck out but most of the time it doesnt. Your default assumption should be that ammo hand loaded for one rifle is not interchangable with any others until you validate that it is.

These rounds were not "tailored" for anything but shooting in AR's which they do quite well in the five guns used to date. I have yet to get my hands on the "evidence" to know if there are marks on the ogive to indicate a problem and am just asking in general for what to look for when I do get my hands on the problem child.

 

[Gohring65]

My guess is his problem is at the case web. Common issue really.

 

[hafejd30]

Yes this is one of the things that came to mind. How do I check this? Some sort of Go no go gauges?

Hornady OAL gauge

If full length sizing (assume this is) the base may not size enough to interchange

But otherwise yes,

Measure the case OAL from base to shoulder and OAL base to ogive of bullet.

I still wouldn’t recommend interchangeable brass. Many times you’ll just cause unnecessary pressure issues and kill brass life. Not such a big deal if you load some range brass and toss it. But you don’t want case head separation

 

[lash]

Yes this is one of the things that came to mind. How do I check this? Some sort of Go no go gauges?

First, measure the hand loaded rounds; headspace, COAL, diameter of case just above the base, diameter at the neck, etc. Then compare those same dimensions to those of a factory loaded cartridge that does fit in the Savage. Get back to us with that info.

 

[Shoots 700's]

So you don't even have the Savage gun yet?

 

[MAHLMAN]

My guess is his problem is at the case web. Common issue really.

If this is the case can I assume putting layout blue on the case show where the bindup is going on?

 

[MAHLMAN]

First, measure the hand loaded rounds; headspace, COAL, diameter of case just above the base, diameter at the neck, etc. Then compare those same dimensions to those of a factory loaded cartridge that does fit in the Savage. Get back to us with that info.

Getting a factory round to him.

 

[lash]

Maybe. Maybe not. Re: your question about the layout blue.

 

[hafejd30]

I don’t load for AR’s anymore but have an question

Does the round typically expand anymore while being extracted? Vs held in the chamber? I know I used small base dies in the past but can’t remember why

Been 10 years since I messed with AR loads

 

[Shoots 700's]

my bet is a tight savage chamber and the shoulder needed pushed back more

 

[MAHLMAN]

my bet is a tight savage chamber and the shoulder needed pushed back more

I was leaning towards a Savage chamber problem myself. Can't remember where but it seemed to me I have read they have problems in this area at times.

 

[MAHLMAN]

Maybe. Maybe not. Re: your question about the layout blue.

And your experience here is? Why would it not show?

 

[lash]

And your experience here is? Why would it not show?

It might show if it was in the case head area. But there are a couple areas that might not show anything at all. If the case is too long, it may not show.

Look at my first post in this thread, then take the appropriate measurements if you know how. Until then, you and we are only just guessing and picking straws. What does the winner get and is it for the longest or shortest straw? You truly haven’t provided enough info and even if you ask questions all day long, you really won’t have learned anything until you learn how to measure the cases and can provide some j formation.

Good luck.

 

[308pirate]

And your experience here is?

Oh dear...Oh dear.....Oh dear......

 

[Gohring65]

If this is the case can I assume putting layout blue on the case show where the bindup is going on?

Should work.
Most of the time, the ar chamber are on the larger side. When you fire brass in it it will expand the brass past the yield point, no matter how you size it it always seems to spring back to the size of the chamber. It’s usually at the web area. You can small base size it and the fired case will probably still be sticky in the savage chamber, mainly because it’s been expanded past a certain point and it’ll always try to return to it.
I’ve been reloading bolt guns and gas guns for 20 years or so, and I’ve learned to not mix brass with different rifles. It always causes problems. I got some 150 grain ar10 loads downstairs that will not fit in my custom 308 chamber. They wouldn’t fit in a savage axis chamber either and it’s because of the expanded case web.

 

[lash]

Oh dear...Oh dear.....Oh dear......

Yeah, I’m out, lol.

I admire your restraint on this one.

 

[MAHLMAN]

Hornady OAL gauge

If full length sizing (assume this is) the base may not size enough to interchange

But otherwise yes,

Measure the case OAL from base to shoulder and OAL base to ogive of bullet.

I still wouldn’t recommend interchangeable brass. Many times you’ll just cause unnecessary pressure issues and kill brass life. Not such a big deal if you load some range brass and toss it. But you don’t want case head separation

Gauge ordered.

 

[308pirate]

Yeah, I’m out, lol.

I admire your restraint on this one.

More fun this way

 

[hafejd30]

Gauge ordered.

You’ll need the bullet ogive inserts and headspace inserts to measure both

 

[Shoots 700's]

You could always load for each rifle individually, but what do I know

 

[308pirate]

You could always load for each rifle individually, but what do I know

Shocking concept!

 

[MAHLMAN]

I like the irrelevant snark around here at times. It lets me know who not to listen to. Anyway with deer hunting being the primary use and maybe 150yds typical max clear shot around here none of us who are concerned in this matter really care if you can tailor rounds to hit a gnats ass at 600 yds. However the miserly poors would like to use their miserly horde of ammo for all their like caliber guns none of which need to hit a gnats ass.

Really Shocking Concept

As an aside I find two groups of primary respondents here. Those who remember that they too had to learn all this stuff they now know and it was not by osmosis. They provide answers.

Then there are those with tons of posts who seem to forget that and sally forth vomiting snark and acrimony and ridicule and smug baseless superiority who apparently like to spend their time being jackasses.

Thanks to those of you who choose to help.

 

[lash]

I like the irrelevant snark around here at times. It lets me know who not to listen to. Anyway with deer hunting being the primary use and maybe 150yds typical max clear shot around here none of us who are concerned in this matter really care if you can tailor rounds to hit a gnats ass at 600 yds. However the miserly poors would like to use their miserly horde of ammo for all their like caliber guns none of which need to hit a gnats ass.

Really Shocking Concept

As an aside I find two groups of primary respondents here. Those who remember that they too had to learn all this stuff they now know and it was not by osmosis. They provide answers.

Then there are those with tons of posts who seem to forget that and sally forth vomiting snark and acrimony and ridicule and smug baseless superiority who apparently like to spend their time being jackasses.

Thanks to those of you who choose to help.

Hahaha! I was very clear in my posts and explained exactly what you needed to do. You responded by questioning what my experience was. You wanted snark. You get what you play for.

Proper loading practices have zero to do with your proverbial gnats ass and everything to do with safety and knowing what in the hell you are doing.

You just keep doing you, cupcake, and you’ll keep getting what you ask for.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

How do you know the rounds do not fit if you haven’t laid hands on the Savage?

 

[MAHLMAN]

How do you know the rounds do not fit if you haven’t laid hands on the Savage?

Sigh, because the guy who owns it says they wont chamber. Hopefully the gun will be here tomorrow.

Hahaha! I was very clear in my posts and explained exactly what you needed to do. You responded by questioning what my experience was. You wanted snark. You get what you play for.

Proper loading practices have zero to do with your proverbial gnats ass and everything to do with safety and knowing what in the hell you are doing.

You just keep doing you, cupcake, and you’ll keep getting what you ask for.

OK I mentioned I was getting the Hornady gauges you mentioned. I took you seriously and am working to implement what you suggested. Where in my comment did you get that I meant you?

 

[msgriff]

Standard AR chambers are typically longer (bolt face to datum) than a precision bolt action. I'm not saying that the Savage in question is a precision rifle or has a "match" chamber.

 

[Gohring65]

Does the savage shoot factory ammo just fine?
If so, you’re wasting your time. He’s going to have to use a different lot of brass, because sizing it one single lot to use in both rifles is going to ruin his brass in just a few sizings. So anyway you look at it he’s going to be spending the money on another lot of brass, why not set up a sizing die for each rifle with their own brass and move on with life. The whole thing seems like a half assed way to save money that really just costing more.

 

[45-90]

I have 8 308s in bolts and ARs ...all will chamber and fire the reloads made for a specific rifle ...from any variety of brass ...military and commercial from around the world. All the bolts are chambered by me with the same reamer, but the AR are random but handle the bolt gun loads just fine...even the long, hot 200 gr SMK at 2674 fps or 225 eldm at 2477 fps out of an 18" barreled AR 10 made for the 30" 308 bolt gun. Standard dies no small base die ever used. Measure and setup your dies to work...know your chambers, and COAL written down...simple. adjust gas down 7 clicks for the hot bolt loads, in the AR 10, set up with high pressure bolts with .062" firing pins in the bolt. Works for me...I have not ran the resized 80,000 psi 277 Fury hybrid case loads in the AR 10. But they really improve the bolt guns, especially the 6.5 Creedmoor if ya like 3132 fps from 140 gr match bullets.

 

[smoothy8500]

I check with a Dillon case gauge pretty regularly when loading

The problem with "case gauges" is what end of the SAAMI spec is it? Minimum or maximum? SAAMI Chamber or SAAMI cartridge? Headspace or web diameter?*

*Fine print: Not being snarky, just presenting known issues with case gauges in general.

 

[MAHLMAN]

Does the savage shoot factory ammo just fine?
If so, you’re wasting your time. He’s going to have to use a different lot of brass, because sizing it one single lot to use in both rifles is going to ruin his brass in just a few sizings. So anyway you look at it he’s going to be spending the money on another lot of brass, why not set up a sizing die for each rifle with their own brass and move on with life. The whole thing seems like a half assed way to save money that really just costing more.

I have been told it shoots factory ammo with no problems.
I agree and I decided this evening I am going to see what causes this problem because I am curious, but I am not loading anything only for his specific rifle.

 

[45-90]

The problem with "case gauges" is what end of the SAAMI spec is it? Minimum or maximum? SAAMI Chamber or SAAMI cartridge? Headspace or web diameter?*

*Fine print: Not being snarky, just presenting known issues with case gauges in general.

I use the go gauge, used to make the chamber, and insert it in the cartridge gauge and check it with a drop indicator on a surface plate.
Also chamber cartridges with no standard chamber gauge, but with a cartridge case, made to fit the chamber made with the finish reamer to a cartridge gauge that is homemade. The cartridge is sized. 002" shorter than the gauge works well in the auto chamber...this is a 30 RAR.

 

[45-90]

I have been told it shoots factory ammo with no problems.
I agree and I decided this evening I am going to see what causes this problem because I am curious, but I am not loading anything only for his specific rifle.

Savage rifles are easy to adjust headspace, they can all be adjusted with the same 308 headspace go gauge to insure all the ammo will fit all the 308 Savage rifles in your posession...unless there is one has a custom chambering reamer that is for something other than standard chamber. It's that simple.

 

[Shoots 700's]

So are you loading for profit or a friend sounds like you don’t have enough experience to be loading for others especially if your not measuring critical areas

 

[salks]

It is the diameter of the brass just above the rim. Yes, layout die would work if you don't smear it on like peanut butter, but a magic maker would work just fine. Brass fired in one chamber will not always fit into another chamber Fact of life deal with it.

 

[hafejd30]

It really sounds like you should take a step back and learn a bit more when it comes to reloading before proceeding

Especially if you’re letting someone else put their face next to your reloads

Negligence is how you end up in a lawsuit with your buddies insurance company

 

[KYAggie]

I’m guessing from the sounds of it that your die is not pushing the shoulder back enough. I have a Savage Hog 308 and had the same problem. My Hornady full length die will not push the shoulder back enough to chamber a round. It works fine with factory ammo. My RCBS X-die will push the shoulder back enough, so I use that die when loading for this gun. I have the tools and I could adjust the headspace, but my gun has open sights on the barrel and they would end up off center. You will need a couple pieces of fired brass from his rifle to see what they measure, then run them through your die and see if it will push the shoulder back .002”, my guess is that it’s not.

 

[MAHLMAN]

So are you loading for profit or a friend sounds like you don’t have enough experience to be loading for others especially if your not measuring critical areas

For a friend. As it turns out the problem rounds came from brass resized by a for profit "pro" who did crap work. As time permits I am going to resize some of these and see if that fixes the problem.

Experience is not an easy thing to acquire at times. When you only have access to other hobby reloaders and online sources which can be more curse then help it becomes trial and error. I am still looking for a competent reloader who would not mind mentoring me a bit here in southern middle Tennessee. I don't know what I don't know if that makes sense.

 

[MAHLMAN]

I’m guessing from the sounds of it that your die is not pushing the shoulder back enough

I am thinking this is it and have some brass from rounds shot yesterday I am going to try resizing on my setup. Insufficient sizing by the guy who did these for me appears to be the problem even though they did drop in the Dillon case gauge. Maybe I need a different gauge but I assume they are all pretty much the same and work off the same set of dimensions when they are fabricated.

 

[Haney]

Hahaha! I was very clear in my posts and explained exactly what you needed to do. You responded by questioning what my experience was. You wanted snark. You get what you play for.

Proper loading practices have zero to do with your proverbial gnats ass and everything to do with safety and knowing what in the hell you are doing.

You just keep doing you, cupcake, and you’ll keep getting what you ask for.

Why are you such a cry ass ? With the amount of trolling you do it seems you would toughen up by now .. Slow learner .

 

[padom]

If this is the case can I assume putting layout blue on the case show where the bindup is going on?

Just color it with a sharpie

 

[hafejd30]

I am thinking this is it and have some brass from rounds shot yesterday I am going to try resizing on my setup. Insufficient sizing by the guy who did these for me appears to be the problem even though they did drop in the Dillon case gauge. Maybe I need a different gauge but I assume they are all pretty much the same and work off the same set of dimensions when they are fabricated.

When you say insufficient sizing,

Was this insufficient for the savage? Or was it sized properly to the AR chamber and just doesn’t fit in the savage

Typically one would bump the shoulder .002” for a particular rifle. But that doesn’t mean it fits in everything

By bumping back to factory size and what not you oversize the brass. An experienced reloader would size as minimal as possible for a particular rifles chamber unless you specifically were running in several rifles. In which case you’d size for the smallest chamber but that kills brass

 

[MAHLMAN]

When you say insufficient sizing,

Was this insufficient for the savage? Or was it sized properly to the AR chamber and just doesn’t fit in the savage

Typically one would bump the shoulder .002” for a particular rifle. But that doesn’t mean it fits in everything

By bumping back to factory size and what not you oversize the brass. An experienced reloader would size as minimal as possible for a particular rifles chamber unless you specifically were running in several rifles. In which case you’d size for the smallest chamber but that kills brass

The Savage. Works in a couple of my AR's though some are tight even there they do work. At this point in time what I am really trying to learn is how to diagnose a problem.

 

[Gohring65]

I would do two measurements if i was looking for the problem. Shoulder set back and the area just above the case rim. I would work to set the shoulder back .002”-003” and see if it chambers, if it still doesn’t want to, id assume it’s the web area being the problem. Color it with a sharpie and observe. You can also just look at where it’s happening in the bolt cycle, if the cartridge isn’t anywhere near going into battery when it starts to stick, then you know the shoulder isn’t holding it back.