.338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

[lrs50bmg]

Performing some tests on Noel's .338 Bullets:
Finally got to the Range a week ago.

L to R: 250 Scenar, 300 Scenar, 253 gr, 256 gr, 265 gr, 318 gr. ZA.

Length(in calibers):
250 Scenar: 4.63 Cal
300 Scenar: 5.14 Cal
253 ZA: 5.4 Cal
256 ZA: 5.6 Cal
265 ZA: 5.9 Cal
318 ZA: 7.0 Cal

Testing was done in a GAP Templar .338LM, 9.5:1 Bartlein 28.5", Badger Brake, Seekins DBM, Throated to accept 300SMK loaded to 3.750 COAL.

Initial tests performed using 256 gr. ZA solid on 3/14/09:
Temp 50 degrees, Alt: ~600 ft. 3 rounds each for load development:
Lapua Brass, Fed215M, COAL: 3.985

Groups impaired by shooting off a very wobbly bench to use Chrono (Oehler 35P).

L to R, top to bottom:

86 gr RL25:
2745
2748
2770 .375"

87.5 gr RL25
2812
2831
2830

89 gr RL25
2882
2875
2882

90 gr RL25
2953
2918
2935

Left
91 gr RL25
2996
3009
2956

Right
92 gr RL25
3006
3010
3014

Sample: 256 ZA, 338 Lapua brass: 3.985 COAL

Same bullet in 338 Norma Mag Case: COAL: 3.750, Can fit 92 gr. RL25 in case and seat bullet without compressing powder:

Bullets are seated so that the bottom 4 driving bands are within the case neck. My initial impression is that these are very consistent in velocity and should group well when I can shoot prone or off solid bench. The 265 gr. was modification made to boattail after Augustus' testing of the .375 7.0 cal bullets. These are next up, and after load development, going to try to get some testing at extended distances in early April on my next trip to Camp Atterbury. Also going to get chrono'd velocities at muzzle and at target to measure BC.

Too long for Seekins Mag in LM case,

but fit fine with Norma Mag case:

Scott

 

[JL]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrs50bmg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
L to R: 250 Scenar, 300 Scenar, 253 gr, 256 gr, 265 gr, 318 gr. ZA.

Length(in calibers):
250 Scenar: 4.63 Cal
300 Scenar: 5.14 Cal
253 ZA: 5.4 Cal
256 ZA: 5.6 Cal
265 ZA: 5.9 Cal
318 ZA: 7.0 Cal

Testing was done in a GAP Templar .338LM, 9.5:1 Bartlein 28.5", Badger Brake, Seekins DBM, Throated to accept 300SMK loaded to 3.750 COAL.

Initial tests performed using 256 gr. ZA solid on 3/14/09:
Temp 50 degrees, Alt: ~600 ft. 3 rounds each for load development:
Lapua Brass, Fed215M, COAL: 3.985

Groups impaired by shooting off a very wobbly bench to use Chrono (Oehler 35P).
</div></div>

Range?

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Range only 100 yards.

 

[turtlesniper]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

lrs try that thing with retumbo i think you should see speed and accuracy go up. buy the way hows the rifle working out for you

 

[SamLS]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

How well do those pointy VLD solids perform hunting? They look fine for target etc.

 

[CoryT]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

What's the source for these? Is there any BC data? I had no luck at all with the BoreTech solids, but your 9.5 Bartlien shoots these, so I'd like to give them a try.

 

[HiCapMag]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Thanks for the report Scott!

Do you have a bullet comparator? I am very curious about the length from base of case to ogive of bullet in one of these solids compared to a 300 SMK or the 300 Scenar..... primarily in the Norma, but the LM would be a valid comparison.

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

turtlesniper:
I didn't put it in the post, but I started with 94 gr. Retumbo with the 300 scenars, and I chrono'd it at 2850. No pressure so I'll try your 95 gr. load next time out. It grouped very well also. The rifle is working great. I am extremely happy with it.
These bullets are a little lighter, so I wasn't sure if the Retumbo might be a little to slow.

DemoSam: not intended for hunting, at least sporting game.

Cory: Noel Carlson is making these. He is also making the 7 caliber 375's that Augustus tested. I am trying to get him to produce something that will work in current twist barrels, yet have a higher BC for everyone who doesn't want to have to move up to a gain twist barrel. We are still tweaking the design. Hope to calc BC by shooting over muzzle and target chrono.

HiCap: I'll try to measure the base to ogive. My comparator my not be deep enough, but I'll try to figure something out.

Scott

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

DS,

In an effort to avoid derailment of Scott's test reporting, I will simply add that tooling for a hunting version of this projectile is already in the works at the request of Redmist, another member at this site.

It will have a resilient ballistic polyurethane tip, and peel open in three distinct petals to mid-shaft. I will make it available at the instant we are satisfied that we have optimized the basic form, and band layout.

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Well.....Noel you are industrious! Excellent!

Another market opens up!

Scott

 

[nolo263]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DS,

In an effort to avoid derailment of Scott's test reporting, I will simply add that tooling for a hunting version of this projectile is already in the works at the request of Redmist, another member at this site.

It will have a resilient ballistic polyurethane tip, and peel open in three distinct petals to mid-shaft. I will make it available at the instant we are satisfied that we have optimized the basic form, and band layout. </div></div>

If you make them I will take a bunch!! I am sure that if you can make them to be affordable and offer them at longrangehunting.com you will be Rich my friend!!

 

[BLAWTON]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

I just recieved my 5.9 caliber bullets. I will be putting these things to the test with a 338-408. If i dont have the results this week i will have them after my comp this weekend, and will post them some time next week. This might not be the right setup per noel but i would like to see how it works. I am hoping that they will work in this setup. I will post these results in a new thread when i have all the info.

 

[C.K]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

What twist barrel are going to run them in.

 

[lanwickum]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

comp this weekend? mind me asking which one that is?

 

[BLAWTON]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

1000 yard BR in missoula.

 

[BLAWTON]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

And i believe its a 9.5 i will have to measure it.

 

[madmax56]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

They look a lot awesome. I have read reports from Europe that you have to have a gain twist barrel to make them work. Are you any closer to having them work in a stock barrel, say a TRG42?


Cheers.


Max

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Max,

These six-caliber 338's can be used with either a constant, or gain-twist rifling geometry.

What <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> be significant in this case, depending on LRS's test results, is their compatibility with manufacturer-installed barrels.

A 1: 9.5" is not what I would have specified. I calculated an 8.5" twist requirement. In the course of a personal experiment, LRS discovered that they perform well from a 9.5" out to, at least, 300 yards.

If they stay stable out to 1,500 yards and beyound, then he stumbled across a very valuable piece of information.

Best,
Noel

 

[SSG3K]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

I have a few lapua rifles and would like try these bullets if I could purchase some. I have limited range to 1000 yards so I would like to get some if possible.

Thanks

Rich

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

SSG3K,

Check your PM's.

Best,
Noel Carlson

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Update: Range Test, 03Apr09
Temp: 45-50 degrees
Alt: 700 ASL
Baro: 29.25
Wind: 4:00 Gusting 5-25 mph

Comparing 2 loads: (.338 Lapua Mag)
Rifle: GAP Templar, throated to 3.750, Seekins Precision Magazine

.338 Lapua Scenar, 95 gr. Retumbo, 2901 fps, ES:19, SD:8 COAL:3.740 (turtlesniper's load! saved me load development)
.ZA338/6.0-Cu (265gr), 97 gr. Retumbo, 2945 fps, ES:13, SD:5, COAL: 2.985

I am not shooting the ZA bullets at every yard line, as I don't have enough. Want to be able to test at 1000, 1200, 1400..... Shooting 3 round groups to compare elevation:

------<span style="font-weight: bold">ZA338/6.0-Cu</span>---<span style="font-weight: bold">300 gr. Scenar</span>
300 yd: 1.0 mR
400 yd: ----------------1.5 mR
600 yd: 3.1 mR--------3.0 mR
700 yd: ----------------3.7 mR
800 yd: 4.9 mR--------4.6 mR

Both bullets holding ~.5-.75 MOA, conditions were with winds gusting 5-20+ mph. All groups were horizontal, probably .25MOA vertical. Bullets stable at all distances, no elongated or keyholes.

Will post longer distances after range time Monday.

 

[madmax56]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Is it possible to buy these projectiles? I'd love to try some through my TRG.


Cheers



Max

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Madmax56,

PM: Noel Carlson

He is the manufacturer.

 

[sharpshooter08]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Will these work for the Armalite AR-30? And if so I would be interested in a few in the 253gr and 256gr.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Sharpshooter,

The 10" twist barrel would need to be replaced, preferably with a LGT rifling geometry in an 8.5" exit-rate. Check magazine length for compatibility with a Norma case, but there should be no reason you can not use the projectile.

PM your contact information.

Best,
Noel

 

[Huckleberry]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Up

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Thanks for reminding me Huckleberry.

The ZA338/6.0-Cu should now stabilize from a 10" exit twist, due to tail revision.

Best,
Noel

It has also increased in weight by 9 grains.

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

My apologies for the delay in updating this:

Noel has developed a hunting version of the ZA.338/6.0 bullet, with a polymer tip. Hide member <span style="font-weight: bold">Rockz</span> provided the test by firing the bullet into wet newspaper @ 500 yards, MV 2990 fps.

<span style="font-weight: bold">L to R: ZA338/6.0 Hunting(257 gr), Recovered(197gr), ZA338/6.0 Match(274 gr), 300gr Lapua Scenar</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Top: Unfired Bottom: Fired recovered projectile
</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Expanded projectile frontal view.
</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Expanded projectile lateral view.</span>

 

[sandytye]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Thanks for the testing info and those pictures of the hunting bullet. it looks like that bullet performed perfectly. Unfortunately I don't have a 338 or i would have some of those on order.

now, by this next bit i do not seek to diminish the great work, terminal ballistic results or the revolutionary inovation that has been put into these bullets. this is just something that i have not been able to figure out in my mind lately.

Playing devils advocate; by the drops that <span style="font-weight: bold">lrs50bmg</span> provided it seems that the 6 caliber bullet has a BC around .67 or so. somewhat below that of the 300 gr. scenar. It does seem that the ZA bullet is superior/ even in the terminal performance category (depending on your view of the perfect bullet performance). I also realize that the banded design and lighter projectile weight allows for much greater muzzle velocity.

Is the only advantage of the 6.0 caliber solid design the increased muzzle velocity? it seems that unless the solid projectiles approach 7.0 calibers long the advantage still lies with conventional bullets. (assuming cartridge and propellant remain the same)

please let me know if i am coming to the correct conclusions or if maybe my brain is just on the fritz lately.

Tye

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Tye,

There is more detailed discussion of this over at Long Range Hunting.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/solid-bullet-debate-43589/index7.html

Your observation is correct. The configuration in which this bullet was tested displays a marginally poorer BC than the 300 grain Scenar (actually, only ~.2 mils lower at 1,200-1,400 yards following some band dimension adjustments). Mass is a huge contributor to BC, and is one of the reasons I have been hesitant to fool around with the 6.0 caliber. As it happens, six calibers is where the advantage begins to shift in favor of copper's specific gravity.

Improvements aft of the forward-band were made as a direct result of information garnered from the Atterbury test, which added the stability necessary for even higher velocity, and greater aerodynamic efficiency. Nine grains were gained in the process. The ZA338/6.0-M (I have now dropped the "Cu" designation) is now more than a ballistic match for the Lapua counter-part. We are still splitting hairs in this weight class however.

The limitations of jacketed-lead construction will not allow for greater length due to inherent structural weakness at the higher rpm's necessary for stabilization. Copper, by contrast, is only coming into it's own at 6.5 calibers, and longer. At that point and beyond, mass, muzzle velocity, and aerodynamic efficiency <span style="font-style: italic">all</span> favor copper solids.

The 6.5, and 7.0, caliber ZA's have no competition except from other, well designed, copper solids.

Best,
Noel

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: .338 Bullet Test, *Pic Heavy*

Sandytye,

I had not posted the drop data at the longer ranges with the improved version of the ZA338/6.0 bullet at my test at Atterbury.

You will note that I was unable to shoot every yard line, but i think enough to give at least an approximation. My testing was interupted by my other responsibilities to the students at the class I was assisting. The following is the complete data from that shoot, and you will note that the difference in drop became significantly less with the improved design. Noel has updated the bullet again from this test, so the exterior ballistics should improve somewhat more than the second version I shot.

------<span style="font-weight: bold">2950 fps</span> ------ <span style="font-weight: bold">2885 fps</span>
-----<span style="font-weight: bold">ZA338/ 6.0</span> ---- <span style="font-weight: bold">300 Scenar</span> --- (Elevation adjustment in mils)
100 -------------------- 0.0
200
300 --- 1.0
400 -------------------- 1.5
500
600 --- 3.1 ------------ 3.0
700 -------------------- 3.7
800 --- 4.9 ------------ 4.6
900
1000 -- <span style="font-weight: bold">7.0</span> ----------- 6.8 ---(Updated projo from 1000-1400 in bold)
1100 -- <span style="font-weight: bold">8.2</span> ----------- 8.0
1200
1300
1400 -- <span style="font-weight: bold">12.6</span> --------- 12.5
1500

As you can see the difference between the two bullets was only .1 mil at 1400 yards. The other thing to consider is that I am able to push the 300 Scenar faster than most 338LM shooters will be able to, as my rifle is throated longer and I can seat the bullet out with a COAL of 3.750. Most will not be shooting the 300 Scenar or SMK at close to 2900 fps. The ZA338/6.0 can be pushed even faster than I tested it at.

Hope this is helpful.

Scott