338 Lapua Hornady brass failing after 2 reloads

[bourgeoiscapitalistpig]

Looking for some reloading advice regarding hornady 338 brass. I purchased 60 rounds of Hornady 338 lapua brass, and I am seeing something that looks kind of like case head separations after just 2-3 loads. I'm assuming this is not expected behavior. Hornady says I'm oversizing the brass in the sizer die, which in this case means I need to reach out to Lyman, thought I would ask you folks before I did that.

I am not seeing any pressure indications in the primers, but if you look at the attached image, you can see the holes that are forming in the case walls, as well as massive indentations that are forming in the shoulder after the firing (the dents not there when they are being resized/annealed, I have been inspecting them). I used Lyman full length sizing dies, and they are being fired in a Savage 110 Precision. All primers were CCI large rifle magnum primers, and all were loaded using Vihtavuori N570 powder. Loads are varied as I am loading ladders, so from minimum to maximum powder load per Vihtavuori. The bullets have been varied, 270gr ELD-X, 285 gr ELD, 300 gr Lapua Scenars, and my latest had 300 gr Nosler ABLRs. I saw 2 of these failures in those loads, and the rest are in my latest ladder, with 300 gr Nosler ABLRs.

 

[CoryT]

Have you measured a new case after the first firing? These would appear to have had the shoulder set back way too far, and/or sizing the base far too small. You want to bump the shoulder back by .002 and size the base down no more than .002 as well. A FL die set down to cam over in the press will probably make the case quite undersize, leading to stretching and case head separations.

 

[bourgeoiscapitalistpig]

Have you measured a new case after the first firing? These would appear to have had the shoulder set back way too far, and/or sizing the base far too small. You want to bump the shoulder back by .002 and size the base down no more than .002 as well. A FL die set down to cam over in the press will probably make the case quite undersize, leading to stretching and case head separations.

I have not, I will start doing that, thanks!

 

[Bacarrat]

Why are there huge dents on the cases? And why are the cases looking burnt?

 

[Zak Smith]

+1 on Bacarrat's question

Headspace is probably too long

 

[lash]

Please, please read up a bit regarding loading for precision rifle. At the minimum, a reloading manual from any of the big suppliers like Hornady, Sierra and the like. You seem to be doing at least a couple things wrong that are causing your problem. Reloading manuals can be had cheaply on a number of websites and at retailers.

Or at least read through the series on hand loading that is pinned in the reloading section. Here’s the first three of the five articles:

Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep

Let's look at our cartridge brass first. Everything we do in hand loading is in the name of consistency, shot to shot. (Technically not "reloading" which is quick & expedient for the likes of short range speed shooting such as IPSC & Steel challenge shoots.) So there it is before us- a fine...

www.snipershide.com

Hand Loading for Long Range 2: Bullet Sort/Prep

Chapter 2: How to prepare a bullet for a long journey. So we got our cases prepped and primed in Ch. 1. Now let's look at our bullets. In our chase for consistency obviously our bullets have to all be IDENTICAL if they are going to launch and fly the same, shot to shot. I have and will...

www.snipershide.com

Hand Loading for Long Range 3: finding start OAL

Chapter 3: "Where’s my rilflings and where should I put them?" So having prepped and primed our brass & sorted our bullets into identical lots now we need to know at what overall length we need to seat the bullet into the case. How do we figure that out? Well there are a few ways to establish a...

www.snipershide.com

Loading for rifle is different than for pistol.

 

[bourgeoiscapitalistpig]

Why are there huge dents on the cases? And why are the cases looking burnt?

That's what I would like to know!
So my current working theory based on the replies here is that I'm over sizing the bullets, leading to failure of the side of the case in chamber when I fire them. Then when the gases leak out, they are leaking up to the shoulder, which due to annealing is softer, and then deforms. This is a complete WAG, and I am a total noob reloading.

 

[Bacarrat]

I would definitely take a step back and read up on what you are doing. 338 LM is not something I would be wanting to learn on. Pick something else that doesn't involve blowing 90+grains of powder. I would not do any annealing unless you know what TF you are doing. The cases looked way over annealed. You need a comparator tool to know how much you are sizing your brass. You only need to bump it .001 to .003 to get it to fit the chamber. If you can, find someone local that reloads to help you out. There are a lot steps that looks like you got wrong.

 

[smoothy8500]

Why are there huge dents on the cases?

+1 on Bacarrat's question

The dents are a common occurance when the case separates. The chamber pressure drops as gasses vent through the cracked case but the neck and shoulder are still maintaining a seal. The barrel pressure is still high during this time. The brass collapses as the gasses push back on the shoulder before the bullet exits the bore.

 

[Bacarrat]

The dents are a common occurance when the case separates. The chamber pressure drops as gasses vent through the cracked case but the neck and shoulder are still maintaining a seal. The barrel pressure is still high during this time. The brass collapses as the gasses push back on the shoulder before the bullet exits the bore.

That makes total sense if you put it that way. Never had a case head separation on anything I have reloaded before. Not saying I haven't done dumb things in the past in reloading, but isn't one of them.

 

[bourgeoiscapitalistpig]

Thank you all for all the info! I'm reading through the hand loading posts now, lots of good info there. I am going to switch back down to 6.5cm to learn hand loading (as opposed to reloading). Folks around here are typically more "full case size and trim after every shot" / "minute of deer", but I'm looking to join a club that has a 1k ft range, so I suspect there will be more specialized knowledge there.

To date, my dumb mistakes have been many. Like sizing 308 brass in a 6.5 die (hunh, that neck looks long)... or somehow putting the 6.5 mandrel in the 308 die, or even better, "eh, as long as it's below melting, it's annealing just fine".

 

[lash]

Knowing that you have to learn and doing it is exactly right. Keep at it and let us know as you go.

 

[chevy_man]

I'd be grabbing a go-gauge and resetting the barrel. (Assuming it's a barrel nut). You'll need the action wrench and barrel nut when changing barrels, so investing in the future.

It might be a good idea to grab a 223 while you practice your reloading. Way cheaper, way less chance of anything going wrong causing a kaboom, and you have a practice gun that has a 10000 round barrel life.

 

[lash]

For those saying he shouldn’t be learning with .338, I’ll just say that I had been away from loading for many years and that was mostly pistol. When I got into long range, I was shooting factory for a couple years and didn’t start loading for precision rifle until I had a .338 and didn’t want to pay $5-6 per round.

That said, I bought a couple used loading manuals online and read them. Then I printed out all five of the articles I just linked above, read them, purchased the necessary equipment and started forward. Oh yeah, I also spent some time on places researching safe loads and then started 10% below and worked up.

One thing that anyone knows that’s been doing this is that you need to be meticulous about detail and pay close attention to measurements of all kinds. If there’s an issue, first thing to do when you’re back home is start measuring, before and after. The answer is usually in there, waiting for you to find out what went wrong in your process. It’s almost always in the process.

 

[Aftermath]

To date, my dumb mistakes have been many. Like sizing 308 brass in a 6.5 die (hunh, that neck looks long)... or somehow putting the 6.5 mandrel in the 308 die, or even better, "eh, as long as it's below melting, it's annealing just fine".

One thing that anyone knows that’s been doing this is that you need to be meticulous about detail and pay close attention to measurements of all kinds.

OP this cannot be stressed enough. I go overboard to prevent....I never leave powder in the hopper. I only have that one powder out of the storage cabinet. I only have the current primer I am using out, only that one caliber of brass and only that one set of dies (not quite true now that I have a turret type press).
You get the idea.
It's very simply a matter of your eyesight, loss of limb or maybe your life. Read and understand BEFORE you start.

 

[spife7980]

Measure the virgin brass case neck diameter, case shoulder diameter, case base diameter and case headspace if you have any, if not do it next time to know your baseline.

Then measure the fired brass to see how much its grown from virgin to now approximately filling the chamber.

Then measure the sized brass to get the numbers to be:
case neck diameter .001-.003 smaller than loaded round diameter and however much that comes to out to less than fired
case headspace .001-.003 smaller than fired and if its not this is the one aspect you can control by screwing the die more or less into the press. If you go too much you get your current results
case shoulder diameter .001-.004 smaller than fired
case base diameter .0005-.002 smaller than fired

Then measure the loaded cases neck diameter to ensure its >.003 than fired to ensure the round isnt larger than your chamber (doubt it would be but check).
Headspace clearance is the space between your cases shoulder and the chambers shoulder and is the one that you need to get a grasp on to in order to properly set up a sizing die.
But how do we measure consistently on a round sloped surface?

We make a datum, whats a datum? Its a plane but more simply its a hole that will settle into the same relative spot on the case every time. I like hornadys version of the tool, its affordable, simple and effective.

They also make the same sort of system to put on your calipers to measure the bullet seating by "ogive" instead of by mangled bullet tips for much more consistent numbers where it matters-where the bullet actually touches the barrel

So write your case measurements down on every firing and track your brass condition.

 

[Thump_rrr]

Lots of excellent info in this thread.
I have a couple of questions though.
Did you anneal these cases?
If so is that why they are so dark on the top half?
IF they were annealed my suspicion is that they were over annealed causing the brass to soften all the way to the bottom.

I have had one Hornady 338 Lapua Magnum dimple like the ones you showed but there was no case head separation or over working the brass but it was a very weak load.
80.2gr H1000 over a 285gr ELD-M
I believe that the neck didn’t expand enough to seal and the gasses passed between the chamber wall and the case causing the dimple.
I increased the powder charge and switched to Lapua brass and never saw that again.

Here you can see the amount of case stretch mine had over a factory Lapua round.
I don’t have a factory Hornady round to measure.
Only 0.0025”

 

[bourgeoiscapitalistpig]

Just got back from deer season, and my gauges had arrived. Here's what I got measuring my 338 cases (Hornady)

fired case: 2.316
sized case : 2.301
factory ammunition (PPU HPBT): 2.311

As a side note, I performed the same test with my 6.5 loads and got:

fired case: 1.556
sized case : 1.552
factory ammunition (Hornady "at least it's not superformance" Precision Hunter): 1.547

So it looks like I just lucked out with the 6.5 die set (it's RCBS), and the 338 die (Lyman) needs some spacing, or is this to the level that I should contact Lyman? I was thinking I would just use a feeler gauge to space between the case holder and the die, unless that's a bad idea.

Re: Annealing
I did anneal them using the setup from the below video, although I may have gone too long, as it says to do it until you can see the glow in the dark, and I did it until I could see the glow with the lights on

 

[Bacarrat]

I wouldn't be annealing shit if it's turning your cases black like that. And you don't need feeler gauges for adjusting your die. A set of calipers works just fine. Sizing it .015 is a shit ton. I was doing messing around with some once fired brass from another barrel before and I couldn't even get the CoAx to cam all the way over past .008. My .002 bump barely feels like I am sizing the brass.

 

[lash]

You want to size those cases to 2.313-2.314”. That means backing off the die, not pushing the case up further.

Nothing wrong with the die at all. If you are under the mistaken impression that the die needs to make contact with the case holder, you wouldn’t be the first person to interpret the directions that way. But like those others you would be wrong.

See my first sentence. That is what you should be trying to accomplish.

Oh, and yes, also back off a bit on the annealing.

 

[secondofangle2]

speechless

No background knowledge
Savage 110 338 LM
Over-resizing like hell
over-annealing like hell and destroying the case body
Multiple case head separations
Befuddled by the results

Put the 338, the annealer and the reloading equipment away till you have basic skills before somebody gets hurt and I’m as serious as syphilis.

 

[sritz05]

LAPUA BRASS ONLY PERIOD. All problems solved.

 

[sritz05]

Lots of excellent info in this thread.
I have a couple of questions though.
Did you anneal these cases?
If so is that why they are so dark on the top half?
IF they were annealed my suspicion is that they were over annealed causing the brass to soften all the way to the bottom.

I have had one Hornady 338 Lapua Magnum dimple like the ones you showed but there was no case head separation or over working the brass but it was a very weak load.
80.2gr H1000 over a 285gr ELD-M
I believe that the neck didn’t expand enough to seal and the gasses passed between the chamber wall and the case causing the dimple.
I increased the powder charge and switched to Lapua brass and never saw that again.

Here you can see the amount of case stretch mine had over a factory Lapua round.
I don’t have a factory Hornady round to measure.
Only 0.0025”

 

[sritz05]

FL die vent hole covered and too much case lube. Spray dies with brake cleaner likely your jam nut is covering the vent hole on the die (if die has one). RE check die on fired case ram up dial to touch and 1/4 die turn off unless setting after first stiff eject. OH on the Lapua brass I anneal after 5 cycles must of my Lapua 338 brass is 25 loads or more and still zero case head ring. But the 300's are also nowhere near maxed out thinking I still have 5 grains available but @ 3 ES it's an obvious choice.