338LM Mythbusting :) VIDEO POSTED

L

Louis Corkern

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 28, 2005
852
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49
AR, USA
www.thorgdg.com
#1
Good Day

Well with all the people talking about the British Sniper being able to shoot the 338LM at that such distance..2700yards.

There has been all kind of talk about no way bullet is stable and predictable at that kinda distance.

There has been all kind of talk about no way scope had enough elevation to even get that distance.

There has been all kind of talk about no way that bullet even had enough KE to kill at that distance.

Well so I decided to go out today with couple guys (RussW1911 and Fredo) and we put a target at 2707 yards. Grabbed my DTA SRS in 338LM with S&B 5-25 with P4Fine on a 40MOA base. Grabbed up some new Corbon 338LM ammo with 300gr Scenars and here are the results.

2707.7 yards

Target elevation: 5444 asl------40*22'08.25" N 112*19'33.11" W
Shooter elevation: 5446 asl----40*23'28.54" N 112*10'38.50" W

BP: 29.92
Temp: 66-72
Hum: 29%
Wind 14-21 from 6-630


So we unloaded everything and run the firing solution numbers...Called for 36Mil elevation and 1.5mil Left for spin drift from a 100yard zero....So I dialed in 25Mil elevation and 1.5Mil Left, then got behind the rifle then had to adjust scope down to 8x just to have enough mils in the reticle to get the correct elevation needed.
1274992591.jpg


Once shooter and spotter were ready we began calculating for the final firing solution for an 18.8mph wind, which was from 6clock to 7clock.
photo2.jpg


Wind continually changed from the 18.8 to 21.2
photo3.jpg


What was learned today is the following:

1. 1 click windage on my scope moves bullet impact from ground on one side of target to the other side..Well that and the 2.4mph windshifts.
2. That the bullet impact moved up/down/left/right with the adjustments of the scope, so even that far into subsonic the bullet is still stable.
3. Having to power the scope down to 8-9x just to have enough mil holds..SUCKS lol

For everyone that said the Soldiers setup couldn't even get that kind of elevation needed....YOUR WRONG

For everyone that said the bullet could not make it that distance and be stable and consistent....YOUR WRONG
photo5.jpg

photo4.jpg


For everyone that said the bullet would not have enough KE to kill someone....YOUR (More than likely) WRONG
photo-1.jpg


For everyone that said the 338LM can absolutely NOT shoot that far....YOUR WRONG
2707.jpg


Human size comparison to the target..Fredo trademarked earplug holder lol
photo1.jpg



Disclaimer: No we did not get 3 hits in row, but then again they were pushing 3000ASL higher.
I wanted to do this testing just to prove the caliber and scope setup was more than capable...shooting in that wind and with that wind differences degraded the shooters ability and not the systems' ability.
 
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#9
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Wasn't the distance, nor the caliber, nor the shooter so much, but rather 3 shots in a row on small targets at that distance without a miss that threw me for a loop.
 
#11
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

When I was commenting on that thread, I simply stuck with the "wind" issue since I've never had any experience shooting that caliber round.....if I remember correctly a difference in 1 mph wind would move the round something like 50 to 70 inches.....

Awesome post though!
 
#13
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

I read somewhere that the Brit did say that it was perfect conditions with almost no wind. Sounds like it was just one of those once in a blue moon times when everything was in the shooters favor to make some really impressive shots.
 
#17
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

To make it closer to the story:

1- How do you know they used the 300 scenar? The 250 lock base is the british issued bullet. Big difference!

2- Now take your rifle, dismount a vehicle and ask the driver (not a trained spotter) with a LRS binocular to give you all the info needed for the shot. No computer...

3- Just rest your rifle on a wall, as the story said.

4- Now hit two 18"x26" or so targets in a row, with normal clothes, including first shot. NOT your painted, bigger gong. Aahh! make the targets move a little, too, they may do it in 6 seconds or so TOF...

5- To put the cherry on the cake, now hit a 10"*10" or so target with the third shot...
laugh.gif
 
#18
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HiCapMag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Out f'ing standing!

Thanks for the report.

Same question as above, how many shots? Clearly the wind was a challenge.</div></div>

Thanks for the suggestion of doing it lol.

5th round lol

I will be the first one to admit that I was very surprised when I fired first round and impact was 2 feet to the right and about 1 foot high but it was fun to just put firing solution onto the scope and go straight for 2707yards without confirming anything with the setup and conditions at closer range.

Thanks
 
#19
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To make it closer to the story:

1- How do you know they used the 300 scenar? The 250 lock base is the british issued bullet. Big difference!

2- Now take your rifle, dismount a vehicle and ask the driver (not a trained spotter) with a LRS binocular to give you all the info needed for the shot. No computer...

3- Just rest your rifle on a wall, as the story said.

4- Now hit two 18"x26" or so targets in a row, with normal clothes, including first shot. NOT your painted, bigger gong. Aahh! make the targets move a little, too, they may do it in 6 seconds or so TOF...

5- To put the cherry on the cake, now hit a 10"*10" or so target with the third shot...
laugh.gif
</div></div>

1. Funny how everyone just assumes what bullet it was..like there was no way he got any other ammo right? That would be sorta like saying Furlong didn't run out of his Canadian ammo and get the American ammo. I also know for a FACT that a little over 2 years ago the Britts acquired pallets and pallets of "solids"...Also the difference in my 300gr and say their 250g is almost ballistically equilavant to the difference in ASL.

2. We did just get out the truck and setup on the ground. Didn't even put shooting mat down
smile.gif
No trained spotter either and we done the calculations on a phone.

3. Do you have a wall in the middle of nowhere with that kind of distance available I can use? I don't have one here.

4. Even at my ASL it is barely a 5sec TOF
smile.gif
Notice in my original thread I made no comment about confirming or denying the snipers ability..I mentioned ballistically and equipment wise.

I made the thread so that others would possibly go out and attempt to prove everything wrong personally instead of just looking up some exterior ballistic data online and calling BS to the story.

Thanks
 
#26
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Great shooting! Very interesting read.

But you mentioned that you had to power the scope down to 8x to see enough mil markings in the reticle. Since you had 25 mils in the turret, and 36 mils total elevation needed, that should be 11 mils in the reticle. But according to the link below, at 15x you can see about 12 mils in the reticle:
http://www.finnaccuracy.com/kuvat/SB/SB_P4_15x_2150m.jpg

Did you power it down to simulate the Brits shooting conditions (I think I have read that he shot on 8-10x), or does this picture give a wrong impression regarding reticle size and number of mils useable?
 
#27
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Sako--I tried to get pic of the reticle with my camera but I couldn't get it done with phone cam to where you could see the reticle on the target.

I powered it down to 8x because while looking at the target thru the scope and counting the Mil marks while adjusting the power to where I had enough for the firing solution that is where the power ended up naturally. I was able to not only get the Mils needed for the hold but I was not looking at dead bottom of the reticle picture.

Thanks
 
#28
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sako--I tried to get pic of the reticle with my camera but I couldn't get it done with phone cam to where you could see the reticle on the target.

I powered it down to 8x because while looking at the target thru the scope and counting the Mil marks while adjusting the power to where I had enough for the firing solution that is where the power ended up naturally. I was able to not only get the Mils needed for the hold but I was not looking at dead bottom of the reticle picture.

Thanks </div></div>
what it sounds to me like he is saying is that he was using the mil marks to hold over, but still had a frame of reference on where the target/landscape was at that power setting.
 
#30
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Later,
Other than having RussW1911 along it sounded like a good time.
grin.gif


I was one of the shooters that doubted the KE at target just like in our conversation the other day.
Glad to see you guy's put all of this together. I sent this over to a friend of mine that is in the "pile" as we speak that said it couldn't be done.
Good job.
 
#31
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sako--I tried to get pic of the reticle with my camera but I couldn't get it done with phone cam to where you could see the reticle on the target.

I powered it down to 8x because while looking at the target thru the scope and counting the Mil marks while adjusting the power to where I had enough for the firing solution that is where the power ended up naturally. I was able to not only get the Mils needed for the hold but I was not looking at dead bottom of the reticle picture.

Thanks </div></div>

Interesting test indeed. Thanks for sharing it!
Will surely try it too- as soon as I find a place and get my S&B back from factory with updated P4.

What comes to hold-over, brits use 250gr bullets -very likely FMJBT.
According to Lapua 250gr LockBase radar drop data, needed elevation would be around 55mils (100 meter zero, MV 2995fps) instead of 36mils you used with 300gr HPBT. .

edit: Just for fun, man standing at 2700yds. 0.7mils height, 0.2mils shoulder width. Aiming point in this case 48.5mils (25 from turret).

sbp4mies.jpg


 
#32
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

What software were you using? Obviously it worked well.

Running JBM with 2800 fps as an assumption for muzzle velocity, the round still had about 640 ft pounds of energy at the target. That is more than a 9mm or 40 S&W or 45 ACP at the muzzle.

Very interesting.
 
#34
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Good test, well done. There are a couple of observations that I will add. The MEDIA reported the three shot issue, not the individual concerned. We all know how accurate the media report shooting issues, especially the British media who's total experience of shooting comes from Hollywood.

Regarding his spotter not being a trained sniper spotter; well they are a cavalry unit; that is an armoured reconnaissance unit. All their soldiers are trained in gunnery, in particular the Rarden 30mm. That course teaches shooting corrections exactly the same as sniping so all who are gunnery trained are very practised on corrections on a sighting system that has relatively little magnification.

Finally the potential for the 250g .338LM being lethal at that range. I believe that the bullet would have somewhere in the region of 280 to 290 foot pounds of energy. It is my understanding that 40 foot pounds of energy is the accepted level for lethality on homo Sapiens.
 
#36
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Great write up and fantastic shooting.

"<span style="font-weight: bold">Grabbed up some new Corbon 338LM ammo with 300gr Scenars and here are the results</span>." Factory ammo Hmmmm? What M.V. were you getting out of that rifle?

I shot 2285 yards early this year with a .338 Edge @ 2855fps and 300gn SMK. I found that out of my 1 : 10 twist barrel that the 300gn SMK was unstable at that range so am very interested that the 300gn scenar was stable.
also the scenar looks like it expanded on impact which I found that the SMK would not. I take it from that the scenar is a softer bullet?

What do you think was the impact velocity???

Maybe the scenar would make a better bullet for hunting at long range than the SMK? Has anyone tried it for hunting?
 
#37
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

A few years ago I shot a large whitetail at about 80-90 yards with the Lapua factory loaded 250 gr scenar. The bullet broke the shoulder and exited through the boiler works. Negligible exit hole. The deer spun around and ran about 120 yards before collapsing in a heap. I don't think that there was very much expansion.

Jim
 
#38
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Later,

Awww! Shooting north off the old road (SR 36) connecting Tooele and Cedar Fort, just NE of the TAD south exit.

Just curious, it looks like you used corrected BP inconjunction with elev instead of station pressure.

What "phone" software were you using? Maybe Shooter or Ballistic FTE?

Alan
 
#39
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Guys we just went back out and did much more testing, with more scientific analysis this time. Got lots of video showing downrange impacts. Vertical accuracy spreads were phenominal! Variable wind speeds made horizontal groupings from two to four times the vertical size.
 
#44
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

I saw the story and actualy was a believer he stated he ran out of his issue ammo and was using US ammo i dont know what you guys are issued and he said he took 3 shots to get a hit and that the conditions were perfict. the thing is it will likley never be repeted again and the shooter was just realy playing around thinking he might send some lead in their general direction as we all try to do at times he was lucky everything worked and actualy took out a bad guy. thanks Later for your info and effort. it is hard for anyone to ever recreate the exact scenareo because of the extreme elevation it was done at and the knowlidge of the exact load he was using all he said is it was US ammo.

Also about the 10 twist issue and 300gr MatchKings it depends on your barrel i have a cut rifled 10 twist and it is stable past a mile with 300gr MatchKings and others with button rifled 10 twist barrels are not because they have some button slippage and are actualy slightly over 10 twist. we are building our 338 Edge's and Lapuas with 9.5 twist cut rifles barrels so they will work with the new berger VLD's and not have problems.

Great Job and good shooting
 
#48
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw the story and actualy was a believer he stated he ran out of his issue ammo and was using US ammo i dont know what you guys are issued and he said he took 3 shots to get a hit and that the conditions were perfict. the thing is it will likley never be repeted again and the shooter was just realy playing around thinking he might send some lead in their general direction as we all try to do at times he was lucky everything worked and actualy took out a bad guy. thanks Later for your info and effort. it is hard for anyone to ever recreate the exact scenareo because of the extreme elevation it was done at and the knowlidge of the exact load he was using all he said is it was US ammo.

Also about the 10 twist issue and 300gr MatchKings it depends on your barrel i have a cut rifled 10 twist and it is stable past a mile with 300gr MatchKings and others with button rifled 10 twist barrels are not because they have some button slippage and are actualy slightly over 10 twist. we are building our 338 Edge's and Lapuas with 9.5 twist cut rifles barrels so they will work with the new berger VLD's and not have problems.

Great Job and good shooting

</div></div>
Wild Bill,
I have shot the SMK out at 1500 to 1800 yard also with my 1 : 10 twist and they performed OK, but going the extra 500 yards or to 2285 yards and the bullets just loose the plot and land all over the place. Might be something in what you are saying about the type of rifling and bullet slip?
Dont have the problem with 250 grain Hornady bullets, they are great.
 
#49
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many total shots fired to get a hit?</div></div>

The 13th shot fired was the first hit. The hit was the 4th shot of my 1st string of 6, I believe Later's 1st string was 9.

I was shooting handloads, Lapua once fired brass, Fed 215M primers, 93.5gr VV N570, 300gr Scenar, 3.735 OAL, 2900fps.

They are about 1 to 1.5 mil less hold then the 2800fps factory Corbon, but were less consistent then the groups sr90 and Later shot with Corbon (pics, video's otw). I think 93.5 is to much, had some fliers (that you may get to hear going past the camera down range) going to load 92.5 and 93 next time.

Out of 11 strings of 2 shots fired before 1st shot impact, only 1 grouped (a few feet) close to each other and target.

sr90 had the right idea during second outing, doing the same hold and waiting for a group to develop instead of chasing windage to try and hit the target, which complicates spotting further due to shooter error.

Couple more things:

5.3 second flight time.

Subsonic 400 to 500 yards before impact.

The vertical cross hair and the bottom bar of the horizontal ranging indicator in the P4 fine reticle was our zero for holds.

Second reticle was Hours #37 in new demo S&B maxed as above, hold on 20 and 21 increments.

Thanks Russ for the range and target, Nick and Louis for the guns.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Human size comparison to the target</div></div> lol.. fat human, I need to diet.
 
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