375: solids vs jacketed bullets

XLR

XLR

boss man
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Minuteman
May 10, 2009
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Grand Junction, Colorado
www.xlrindustries.com
#1
In direct reference to the 375 cheytac bullets, what is the advantage of a lead core jacketed bullet over a solid. In my opinion, the solid seems to be a logical choice as it is not prone to core stripping and has higher BC than a jacketed bullet. I would also think that it can be pushed harder without failure. I guess barrel life could be an issue. But at this point, the jacketed bullets are not the more econimical way to go so I don't understand their purpose?
 
#2
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Good question! I think both bullets have their advantages and disadvantages. I don’t think either bullet has an accuracy advantage. And as far as pushing them harder the solids may have an advantage but my experience is extreme high velocities are not the most accurate loads. I’m not sure what core stripping is but I think your referring to core separation. If lead core bullets are made correctly core separation is not a problem. It’s almost impossible to make a lead core bullet to remain intact on impact from muzzle velocity to max range velocity. But they can be made to perform very well through most of the velocity range. As far an economics, a lead core copper jacket bullet is far more complicated and labor intensive to make. Starting with the jackets it takes about five different dies and draws to make the jackets. Then the lead cores are cut and go through a squirt die. Now the bullet is ready to be started and it takes at least five dies to make the bullet. The biggest advantage I see with lead core bullets is they make a far more lethal wound for use in a hunting situation. I don’t know what the fish and game laws are in the eastern states are but in Montana and other western states non expanding bullets are not legal to hunt with which may be a big issue with some shooters. On the flip side, some states are outlawing the use of lead for hunting. Good subject though, lets hear from all you other shooters.
 
#3
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

George how is the 375 hunting bullet made bullet with your Aluminum tip. What kind of expansion will i see from hit on a animal. I do know they look awsome and from what Bobby told me they shoot well in the Cheytac.
 
#4
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Hi Glowworm,
The bullets are made with a tapered gilding copper jacket to very tight tolerance. The aluminum tip is swaged into the lead core with a small cavity below the aluminum tip for better expansion at low velocity. The bullet retained 80% of their original weight in test media when Bob and I tested them this spring. I haven’t had any feed back on using them on large game animals yet. The bullet is basically the same bullet as our .408 bullets, which performs great on elk and deer, so I would expect the same results with the .375.
 
#5
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Bulletsmith,

In response to a request by "Redmist" some time ago, there is no longer a jacketed lead-core advantage, over a copper solid, even in expansion. A single basic solid-copper bullet design can be biased to explode like a Berger, splay like a Bearclaw, or mushroom like a Partition. It is just a matter of which (non-toxic) bonded-core alloy, or combination of alloys, is used.

In the realm of accuracy, only a target which can be reached, can be hit accurately. The aeroballistic efficiency of a properly configured copper solid outclasses <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> jacketed bullet in existence, and this will always be true as a consequence of swage forming limitations.

I do not know what the going price of custom jacketed bullets is, but I had always assumed this would be the only advantage held over a solid... until I saw what HAT bullets were selling for. If that price scale is represenative, then the days of premium lead-core bullets are numbered.
 
#6
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

I need to make a correction in a post I made earlier, I did some checking and Montana does not have any law against the use of non expanding bullet for use on game animals. I called and talked with them and there thought was hunters should use common sense when choosing a bullet to hunt with. I have to agree and the less laws to govern firearms related items the better.
 
#7
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Bulletsmith,

I am working on some of your 370gr aluminum tipped bullets I got from Bobby a couple of weeks ago while at his place. I am shooting a .375 CT that I have improved. The improvement added about 10 gr of water capacity to the case. It is probably very close to the 375 Snipe Tac or .375 Allen Magnum, I am guessing, based on discussions with them and knowing there isn't all that much you can do when "improving" this case.

I am trying to work up loads and was going to start with 132 gr of Retumbo. Are there any loads you can recommend for the .375 CT with your bullets?

My next e-mail is going to Noel to check up on his run of solids in the 375 gr class.

I appreciate any info you have.
 
#8
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

.375Mojave
I think we spoke on another post, anyways I'm up to 136gr. of Retumbo with the 370 RBTAL bullets and the velocity I'm showing is just a tad over 3100 and accuracy still seems to be very good. Average group is still under .75
I'm really happy with the 10.5 twist tube Bobby made for me, I think its the ticket for the big .375 bullets.
Rifle still seems to take about 4 shots to settle in before it groups really nice. A friend told me to try some Boron Nitride on the bullet, says it helps alot on the cold bore shot. Have some on the way and will give it a tray and let everyone know the results.
 
#10
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

I appreciate it. I will bump my starting loads to 135 and do some 3 shot group testing, going up a grain at a time. I have a little more case capacity than the stock round so we'll see where I land. I would like to think I can push it nearly to 140 gr. and get it past 3,100 fps, but we'll see.

My first round of the day is off by a mile. I am going to start putting a couple of cheap rounds downrange to warm things up and start looking to group at round 3 or 4.

I still have to get some Kroil for my cleaning finish and see how that works. Getting a cold bore zero for hunting is going to be another entire exercise. I don't think an elk is going to stand there while I warm up with a couple rounds.
 
#12
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: djd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cold Bore....Read what Lowlight has said about this. I'm sure he has hard data. The same as I do.

Dean Michaelis (my old and still shooting partner) has written about this Cold Bore effect many times. Both are absolutely correct by proven field experiance.

Lowlight calls it "Cold Mind or Cold Body" not "cold bore". I 100% agree.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Following reasons:</span>

We have have used 5-8 man teams on the same (one rifle). You designate a Primary Shooter, only in order to get an initial zero. Then...all other members shoot said rife with that original setting. Each shooter does this, and logs his own shooters offset in comparison with the Primary guy. They will be vastly different with each shooter the 1st time.

Prove me wrong if you have the time and ammo. I have compiled this knowledge from several years of teaching woldwide.

Then after 8-10 hrs/day shooting for 2-4 weeks...in the end, all shooters seem to have the exact same zero. Also, no one has any cold bore problems! Imagine that! We have done this many times.

Go figure.

Of course, we also recommend JB Bore compound on all barrels (something with bad JuJu here at SH). It's never hurt our barrels, and I've used it over 25 yr.s. and still do, and recommend for Feild Teams.

You should see some of the "field mixtures" we'd use in the past for cleaning in Europe/SE Asia and elsewhere. I've went to local Drug Stores, bought bought straight ammonia, hydrogen peroxide, 100% glycrin, etc. just to clean our bores.

Nuff of that. Just wanted to present another point of view to consider.

djd


Straight ammonia, destroys copper like nothing else. mix it with a little dawn dish soap to stick and your good to go.




</div></div>

Straight ammonia, destroys copper like nothing else. mix it with a little dawn dish soap to stick and your good to go.
 
#13
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

The problem I have with reading things like this is that everyone here has a different idea in their head of "same zero". Is your zero considered 1 moa? Or is is .1 MOA. That is the difference. If I have a shot with my ppc that is .2 off of my group, I am going to be trying to figure out why that is. If I am shooting my 50, I could care less. Maybe the cold bore caused it, mayby it didn't. It is all a matter of perspective and how picky you actually are. If I tell someone that a group of shooters has the same zero, I personally would think that all shots were through 1 ragged hole. I know when I shoot rail guns in BR comps, cold bore shots are different than the following shots. I think that would be the most accurate way of testing this theory. What are you thoughts?
 
#14
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

I am anxiously following most of the these .375 Cheytac threads for a build I hope to start soon and was wondering if the projectiles here were 'standard' bore or the 'Lost River' bore...is the industry trending towards one or the other now?

Has the issue of the opposing bore sizes been 'settled' by the shooting elite?
 
#15
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

I'm not going to enter this fray, except to voice my support for guys in Idaho as well as to offer up photographic evidence of our philosophy on the subject of Cold Bore Deviations, or lack there of...

<span style="font-style: italic">My new favorite picture</span>
2q0otwx.jpg


Jim here, after being coached in the elimination his mind from the cold bore deviation. These (2) two shots, witnessed by a class of 11, was Jim's cold bore shot, and 2nd shot follow, so what you are seeing is in fact his first and second shot of the morning. And he is not the only one we see this with, but this pictures represents one of the best examples we have.

With practice comes understanding, from the understanding we have the desired effect.

However, your state of mind my vary your result, old ways of thinking need not apply.
 
#16
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<span style="font-weight: bold">With practice comes understanding, from the understanding we have the desired effect.

However, your state of mind my vary your result, old ways of thinking need not apply.</span>

Roger all LL,

DD
 
#17
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Arnygollott3,
My test barrel I had Bobby make is a standard bore. I believe we originally tested the .375 370gr, Rocky Mountain bullet in a lost river bore and they shot fine. I don't think it matters which bore the lead core copper jacket bullets shoot fine in both.
Bobby, maybe you could shed some light on this when we did the testing, I seem to be having a brain cramp.
 
#18
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Straight ammonia, destroys copper like nothing else. mix it with a little dawn dish soap to stick and your good to go.
</div></div>

You may be getting the copper out but i have never really found a good patching cleaner that will get all the carbon and other residue in a barrel. This is where a smaller then caliber brush and a patch on the end of it with JB gets the extra stuff out. JB it once in a while!
 
#19
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bulletsmith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Arnygollott3,
My test barrel I had Bobby make is a standard bore. I believe we originally tested the .375 370gr, Rocky Mountain bullet in a lost river bore and they shot fine. I don't think it matters which bore the lead core copper jacket bullets shoot fine in both.
Bobby, maybe you could shed some light on this when we did the testing, I seem to be having a brain cramp. </div></div>

Yes your is a standard bore and groove to land ratio. The solids require a different approach. But the solid bore still can shoot the lead core just fine or great. But may still work with the monolithic's better depends on the specific barrel.
 
#20
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not going to enter this fray, except to voice my support for guys in Idaho as well as to offer up photographic evidence of our philosophy on the subject of Cold Bore Deviations, or lack there of...

<span style="font-style: italic">My new favorite picture</span>
2q0otwx.jpg


Jim here, after being coached in the elimination his mind from the cold bore deviation. These (2) two shots, witnessed by a class of 11, was Jim's cold bore shot, and 2nd shot follow, so what you are seeing is in fact his first and second shot of the morning. And he is not the only one we see this with, but this pictures represents one of the best examples we have.

With practice comes understanding, from the understanding we have the desired effect.

However, your state of mind my vary your result, old ways of thinking need not apply. </div></div>

Very nice!

Being a BR shooter for a while now I know for a fact your POI will change after the barrel has been warmed up. When im zeroed at 1k for the comps i will leave my gun where its at. Then when practice begins my first 3 shot will move up the paper. Starting at about 10-14" out the first shot the walk right back up into the 10 ring and everything is good to go. I know there is alot of mental involving a "cold bore" shoot. So guns will act slightly different it still comes down to knowing your weapon!!!
 
#21
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Wow, sound like a pride issue! I apologize if I offended you, I was only trying to form a basis of your opinions. While I realize that many are offended that Benchrest shooting "tactics" are brought into this forum, one must get over their pride and realize that Benchrest shooters shoot the most accurate guns in the world. Might try to learn from them. For some reason or another, cold bore (shooter) shots are off almost all the time. That is why I brought in the rail gun. Because it eliminates the shooter and concentrates on the rifle. While you might get lucky at times, most of the time cold bore shots are off. I am not saying that I am right and you are wrong, but from MY experience in an apparently much more diversified arena, cold bore shots are almost always off from the following shots. I also feel that it is important to post on first hand experience and not state facts from guesses, which is why I am writing this. While maybe not to your extent, I do have ELR experience. I consistently shoot sub MOA out to 1800 yards. All the while over canyons with varying winds. Am I claiming to know it all? Absolutely not. That is why I post on here, so I may learn as much as possible about my passion. I will continue to try and learn from your experience as well as everyone else’s, all the while with an open mind. Maybe you should follow suite. And no, the title of this post is NOT about cold bore shots at ELR. Actually I started it and it is about bullet types for the 375 cheytac. (an ELR rifle). Anyways, I don't believe that shooters should form "clichés" and talk bad of other types of shooting games. Instead, we should try to learn from each other and expand our horizons. Have a good night.
 
#22
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

I don't have a dog in this fight at all.....

Just getting into ELR/ULR so I won't go too far into that one either, BUT I do send a few down range every year.

That said, I will agree with both sides. I have noticed that on a good, accurate factory barrel that I have seen this cold bore shift. It was there, proven with several people watching and different shooters firing hte weapon. Then I started to get good barrels. My Bartleins, Rock, PacNor, Lilja and hopefully my Lawton barrels have ZERO shift. 100 to 1000, I don't have to hold off at all.

I have talked to NAG and argued with him about it in the past. Only thing I can come up with is that with his rate of fire, then he is going to have a shift from the heat that he builds in such a short amount of time. Standard shooting doesn't do this.

Now, I don't know you RAT, but a kind word of advice. Know who your talking to and who your "educating" before you come off as a guy just yapping.

Disclaimer: I disagree with everything LowLight says.... just because.
 
#23
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Thanks for the advice Russ. My first reply was simply to know where he was coming from so I can better understand his theory. I was hoping to have an open discussion to see both sides. It just gets frustrating that one challenges anothers statement and gets drilled for asking and labeled an "idoit". I am always learning and definatly don't have it all figured out. I was simply asking what his "tolerance" was. Thanks, Kyle
 
#24
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

I hear ya RAT, I can see where your coming from as well. Just saying that although a lot of people don't know it.... we do have some the the worlds most versed shooters here.

I will be taking my 375 to 1000 this weekend with some solids. 3 days with 3 coldbores. We'll see how the first shot goes.
 
#25
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Benchrest shooters have their impacts walk because they over clean the snot out of their rifles and thus have to foul and re-season it every time they start.

In many cases there are differences between "Clean" cold bores and Fouled Cold Bores, especially when you consider "I" leave my bore fouled.

When you strip a bore clean you remove things that help maintain consistent Cold Bore impacts, so you have to replace the copper that has been removed hence the walking observed in Benchrest shooting.
 
#27
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

djd,

I am glad the 408's worked well for you. For the record, that particular design is over a year old, and was obsolete the moment it was first test fired by an individual who remains under obligation not to circulate the bullets, or information about them. The purpose of an NDA is to avoid this type of occurrence.

(Note, this is not Bobby's fault... but I will soon be in touch with the individual who took liberties with our agreement.)

The nose of the projectile you fired has a (misapplied) Haack L-V profile, and the tail is primitive by current standards. Band layout is also less than ideal.

Please contact me directly if you would like to experiment with a 408 which incorporates six generations of revision.

Best,
Noel
[email protected]
 
#28
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">djd,

I am glad the 408's worked well for you. For the record, that particular design is over a year old, and was obsolete the moment it was first test fired by an individual who remains under obligation not to circulate the bullets, or information about them. The purpose of an NDA is to avoid this type of occurrence.

(Note, this is not Bobby's fault... but I will soon be in touch with the individual who took liberties with our agreement.)

The nose of the projectile you fired has a (misapplied) Haack L-V profile, and the tail is primitive by current standards. Band layout is also less than ideal.

Please contact me directly if you would like to experiment with a 408 which incorporates six generations of revision.

Best,
Noel
[email protected] </div></div>

Noel they wernt your bullets...... I understand the mis-understanding that happened. Just talked to noel on the phone and everything is cleared up. Thanks
 
#29
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Benchrest shooters have their impacts walk because they over clean the snot out of their rifles and thus have to foul and re-season it every time they start.

In many cases there are differences between "Clean" cold bores and Fouled Cold Bores, especially when you consider "I" leave my bore fouled.

When you strip a bore clean you remove things that help maintain consistent Cold Bore impacts, so you have to replace the copper that has been removed hence the walking observed in Benchrest shooting.

</div></div>

Yes frank that is a good point. I will mess around with this idea a little more and will report my findings.
 
#31
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hear ya RAT, I can see where your coming from as well. Just saying that although a lot of people don't know it.... we do have some the the worlds most versed shooters here.

I will be taking my 375 to 1000 this weekend with some solids. 3 days with 3 coldbores. We'll see how the first shot goes. </div></div>

Yea and dont you dare make a scope adjustment for the first 3 shots either.
 
#32
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Sorry RAT, I deleated them. Things were getting bent, assumed, etc. Nothing to do with you at all... believe me.

I broke my personal Rules of Engagement on internet posts. For that I apologize. Please PM or direct email me if you want.

Now I got to go to work.

djd
 
#33
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NotAGuru</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hear ya RAT, I can see where your coming from as well. Just saying that although a lot of people don't know it.... we do have some the the worlds most versed shooters here.

I will be taking my 375 to 1000 this weekend with some solids. 3 days with 3 coldbores. We'll see how the first shot goes. </div></div>

Yea and dont you dare make a scope adjustment for the first 3 shots either. </div></div>

Pffft, adjust a scope.... I think not. Its all holdover to 3000, right?
 
#36
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

I will be testing both a rifle and bullets RAT.

My new 375 CT and the 330 Lehigh, just becasue those are the only bullets I have in hand right now, but they should shoot well.....
 
#37
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NotAGuru</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Straight ammonia, destroys copper like nothing else. mix it with a little dawn dish soap to stick and your good to go.
</div></div>

You may be getting the copper out but i have never really found a good patching cleaner that will get all the carbon and other residue in a barrel. This is where a smaller then caliber brush and a patch on the end of it with JB gets the extra stuff out. JB it once in a while!</div></div>

I use JB just as you describe above also, I use the above brew to strip copper on my BMGs.
 
#42
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

Do not fire a ZA projectile from a "seasoned" barrel.

They do not foul, and are not designed to function well fired through a fouled barrel. There is micrographic evidence that a ZA's engraving-bands will <span style="font-style: italic">remove</span> existing carbon from a bore.

Best,
Noel
 
#44
Re: 375: solids vs jacketed bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Stoffels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looking for a recommended load for a new "to me " 375 Cheytac.
are you loading to the lands .010 off etc?
Thanks Bill </div></div>


For what?
 
#45
George,
This is an old thread and I would like to inquire about one of your earlier posts. I am going through the motions of choosing a solid vs core bullet for my .375 CheyTac and the core on trial is your RM. I have heard people reporting BC's for these bullets from around .970 to 1.02. What BC have you observed for the .375" 370 gr RBTAL?
 
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