.454 Casull Bullet Creep

powerspc

powerspc

It Sounded Like a Good Idea at the Time
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    • Mar 15, 2018
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    #1
    Hi,

    I've been playing around with some reloads for my .454 Casull Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan. I've been loading both 260gr and 300gr X-Treme RNFP bullets.

    Reloading with: Redding (88191) Ttanium Carbide Complete Set and Redding (86191) Profile Crimp Series A / 45 Colt/454 Casull

    Brass: Starline
    Prime: Federal 205M (Small Rifle Match)
    Powder: H-110
    Charge: 36.0gn
    Bullet: 260gr RNFP
    FPS (avg): 1190
    Quickload Pressure (Pmax): 54,354 psi
    Barrel: 2.50"

    Brass: Starline
    Prime: Federal 205M (Small Rifle Match)
    Powder: H-110
    Charge: 30.0
    Bullet: 300gr RNFP
    FPS (avg): 950
    Quickload Pressure (Pmax): 47,844 psi
    Barrel: 2.50"

    They both shot well, but my initial reloads crimped at about .001 didn't even come close. After ~2 rounds the remaining bullets had pulled out and locked the cylinder up. No issue, just tapped them in and went back to the drawing board. The next set I crimped to around .003, better for sure but the bullets were still pulling out of the cases under recoil (but did not lock cylinder up). Do I just need more crimp (read, crimp the dog shit out of them)? Different crimping die? Anything else I may be missing? Thanks in advance!
     
    #3
    Mike Casselton said:
    Heavy crimp, and if that doesn't work, try a healthy taper crimp.

    Usually the heavy roll crimp will suffice. Just make sure to keep your brass trimmed properly or risk squishing a case.
    You should have a very noticeable roll crimp.
    Click to expand...

    Thanks, that was my first thought, to just keep upping the crimp until they hold, but I know there are various admonitions against over crimping so I wanted to check before continuing down that path.
     
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    #4
    If you overcrimp you will buckle the case walls away from the bullet. I have found that it is better to roll crimp over the ogjive when the crimp groove is too shallow or nonexistent.

    Second, are these rated for the pressures you are running? Do you know what happens to a bullet transitioning from the cylinder to the bore in a revolver?
     
    #5
    Maximum neck tension and a heavy roll crimp. Forget measuring the crimp, do it till it ruins the case, then back off till it doesn't. But you also need bullets made to accept that roll crimp.
     
    #6
    918v said:
    If you overcrimp you will buckle the case walls away from the bullet. I have found that it is better to roll crimp over the ogjive when the crimp groove is too shallow or nonexistent.

    Second, are these rated for the pressures you are running? Do you know what happens to a bullet transitioning from the cylinder to the bore in a revolver?
    Click to expand...
    Second, are these rated for the pressures you are running?
    They are both Freedom Arms projectiles:
    For the 300gr at 31.5gn (31.0 is the factory equivalent load) of H110 they show the C.U.P. at 55,000 for the 260gr at 37.0gn of H110 it tested at 53,800 C.U.P. That said, I'm planning to come down a bit for the 260's just to tame the recoil a bit. 35.0gn is the factory equivalent load.

    Do you know what happens to a bullet transitioning from the cylinder to the bore in a revolver?
    For this question, I either don't understand it or don't know the answer, either way I am intrigued and always open to improving my knowledge.
     
    #7
    Whatever die you use an an expander/bell, you might want to polish it down in OD by .002 or so. This will give you more neck tension.

    This along with a heavier crimp should help.

    I found that the lighter bullets like 260s pulled much easier than the heavies. And the 260s at the speed of heat were zero fun to shoot.

    N-110 gave me the best accuracy and really good velocity for hunting ammo. Universal Clays is excellent for plinking ammo.
     
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    #8
    918v said:
    If you overcrimp you will buckle the case walls away from the bullet. I have found that it is better to roll crimp over the ogjive when the crimp groove is too shallow or nonexistent.

    Second, are these rated for the pressures you are running? Do you know what happens to a bullet transitioning from the cylinder to the bore in a revolver?
    Click to expand...

    With regards to over crimping, I made the assumption that he knows when to stop. I probably should have pointed that out.

    The pressure he's running in his 454 Casull are actually downright tame for that specific cartridge.
    I've manufactured (commercially) full power loads for that cartridge and let me tell you, they'll get your attention quick.

    Screenshot_20230105_125801_Google.jpg
     
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    #10
    powerspc said:
    Second, are these rated for the pressures you are running?
    They are both Freedom Arms projectiles:
    For the 300gr at 31.5gn (31.0 is the factory equivalent load) of H110 they show the C.U.P. at 55,000 for the 260gr at 37.0gn of H110 it tested at 53,800 C.U.P. That said, I'm planning to come down a bit for the 260's just to tame the recoil a bit. 35.0gn is the factory equivalent load.

    Do you know what happens to a bullet transitioning from the cylinder to the bore in a revolver?
    For this question, I either don't understand it or don't know the answer, either way I am intrigued and always open to improving my knowledge.
    Click to expand...

    What do you mean they are Freedom Arms projectiles?

    When a bullet transitions from the cylinder throat to the forcing cone it grows in diameter because there is nothing containing its size. The forcing cone then directs it into the bore where it is swaged back to size. If the bullet expands too much it will wear out the forcing cone. That’s why 454 Cassull specific bullets are hard. They have hard lead alloy cores and thick jackets.

    Are you sure your bullets aren’t meant for reduced loads? They don’t even have a cannelure to crimp into.
     
    #11
    If they don't have a cannelure, they should not be roll crimped.
    That's when a taper crimp should be used.

    As pointed out above, the roll crimp goes into the cannelure.
    Hornady makes two different 300gr 45 caliber XTPs. They have the groove in different places for 454 Casull and 45 LC. The 454 is why they are labeled Mag vs not labeled Mag.
     
    #13
    FWIW, I found in my 4.75” barreled Freedom Arms 454 that heavier cast bullets are more pleasant to shoot recoil wise; I’ve settled on 335 hard cast. The 300 grain and lighter bullets recoil is much faster and more harsh which makes a very heavy crimp nessesary. You might be better off with a heavier bullet.
     
    #14
    KYAggie said:
    FWIW, I found in my 4.75” barreled Freedom Arms 454 that heavier cast bullets are more pleasant to shoot recoil wise; I’ve settled on 335 hard cast. The 300 grain and lighter bullets recoil is much faster and more harsh which makes a very heavy crimp nessesary. You might be better off with a heavier bullet.
    Click to expand...

    Agree. The 250s are nuts.

    I shoot 300 and 335s out of my 45 LC Bisley. They aren't pussy loads, but they are much nicer shooting than full 210gr 41 Mag loads.

    For plinking, I like the old lead 255gr over about 9-10 gr of Titegroup.
     
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    #15
    918v said:
    Xactly. The mag version is hard and can withstand high pressures of the 454. I don’t think Xtreme anything should be used in 454 heavy loads.
    Click to expand...
    And now I'm glad I asked. I'm certain you are completely correct and that I am a complete dumbass. I will put those aside for my .45 Colts.

    These are correct then right?

    Picture1.png
     
    #17
    To the OP: Where did you get the data for 36gr H110 with a plated bullet? Hodgdon online data is free and easy for all to access.
    They show 36gr H110 as a max for 260gr FREEDOM ARMS Jacketed Flat Points. These projectiles are no longer manufactured as far as I know, but there are similar magnum jacketed bullets appropriate for the Casull. I have worked up max loads shooting 340/360gr cast bullets upwards of 1500 FPS. Not for the novice reloader, and when you touch one off, you better be holding on.
    The fact that you're getting 1190fps with that much H110 and a 260gr bullet is WAY off. It prompted me to join this forum just to post this response. You did not mention your barrel length, but around 1800fps would be a more realistic expectation for this combination, assuming proper bullet and a small rifle magnum primer.
    As a rule, you don't download H110/Win 296 powder below the starting load, which Hodgdon lists as 34gr with the suggested bullet.
    My advice to you is to try a heavier, properly sized cast bullet, most likely .452, of proper construction, with a cannelure to accept a heavy roll crimp. I strongly suggest you try a load work-up with Ramshot Enforcer powder as it has a much wider loading range than H110, meters like water, uses standard small rifle primers, and there is plenty of data available online for free.
    I have found heavier cast bullets in the 350gr range moving at lower speeds to be MUCH more manageable and pleasant to shoot than the light weights and a case full of H110. More of a heavy push, I do not like a sharp stinging snap type of recoil. Also, if you hunt, a 350gr cast bullet at around 1300 fps would be devastating on any living thing on this planet. Look up the writings of John Linebaugh. His best performing magnum revolver rounds are heavy cast bullets moving around 1200-1300 fps, after that you're just gaining recoil and noise.
     
    #19
    From their site those bullets are limited to 1500fps so OP seems good as he has posted under 1200 for his load. Also they recommend only a light taper crimp.


    "Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp


    Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp"

     
    #20
    Guess I’d have to ask the OP what his intention is with a 2.5” Alaskan. Doubtful a 2.5” barrel is going to burn a full case of H110 with any efficiency, regardless of how much crimp and case neck tension you introduce, though I have polished expander stems for almost all of my magnum revolvers up through 475 Linebaugh. The primary load Linebaugh gave me when he worked over a 45 Colt Ruger Bisley about 20 years or so ago was a 310gr NEI SWC over HS6 for around 1000fps, a pretty effective load, and much better suited to a short barrel. Would think Power Pistol might be a good option as well. If for hunting and/or protection, would think controllable power would be desirable rather than lots of flash/bang, and the suggestion of a 325/350gr cast WFN/LFN bullet is entirely valid. Just another option to consider.
     
    Last edited:
    #22
    Im2bent said:
    From their site those bullets are limited to 1500fps so OP seems good as he has posted under 1200 for his load. Also they recommend only a light taper crimp.


    "Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp


    Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp"

    Click to expand...
    Sorry to differ with you sir, but the only reason his load is under 1200fps is that it did not develop enough pressure. In 30 years I have never heard of anybody loading up full bore Casull loads with H110 and using a plated bullet. Hodgdon shows a 260gr Freedom Arms JHP over 36gr H110 for 1954fps from a 9" barrel. Assuming a velocity loss of about 25fps per inch of barrel, he should still be around 1400-1500fps even out of the short barrel, not to mention, his 300gr bullet loads with 30gr H110 were moving at a blistering 950fps. That is the velocity of standard pressure(14000cup) 45 colt loads.
    The issue he posted about was bullet creep caused by a taper crimp on an unsuitable bullet. The taper crimp die should have been called a flare removal die, because that is all it does when loading for auto pistols like the 9mm and 45 auto, case tension, not crimp, holds the bullet in. A roll crimp for magnum pistol loads is an entirely different animal. I was just trying to steer him in the right direction, but to argue that plated bullets with no cannelure and a "light" taper crimp should be used to try to achieve 1900fps in the Casull is absolutely f***ing RIDICULOUS, and would be the antithesis of safe reloading. Sorry.
     
    #23
    I load for 454 casull, and can say if you havent, this is a big problem.
    Even the factory uses a Serious, SERIOUS pronounced crimp on their loads. I had a batch of factory ammo that would rattle the pill out of the case on the last 2 rounds in the cylinder of 6 when shooting- causing a powder dump all over the cylinder and ground. Stopped using them directly after.
    If you get a chance, take a look at the Barnes ammo. It looks like they put an exhaust pipe cutting wheel around the body of the brass at the cannelure with the case itself digging into the copper projectile deep.
    For kicks, I tried putting one in my inertia bullet puller till my arm wore out, and still it hadn't moved.
     
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