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5.56 Hybrid case @ 80k PSi.

SigSauerM7

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 16, 2024
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Would a large and overbuilt Bolt face and over built barrel nut and barrel lugs like LMT or KAC handle an 80k PSI 95gr SMK 5.56 round loaded long to 2.800 inch work and cycle?

Can AR10s even cycle at 80k PSi?
 
Also if that’s your level of expertise, you’re not the candidate for 80K PSI experimental loads next to your face or you’ll get Serbu-ed
 
Would a large and overbuilt Bolt face and over built barrel nut and barrel lugs like LMT or KAC handle an 80k PSI 95gr SMK 5.56 round loaded long to 2.800 inch work and cycle?

Can AR10s even cycle at 80k PSi?

If someone made the steel brass hybrid case in 5.56, loaded with a charge that produced 80k, and stuck a 77 grain SMK on top at mag length of 2.260 it would be some super velocity Mk262.

You seem to be confusing the 2.800 6.8x51 which IS in an AR10 variant with 5.56 ARs.
 
Would a large and overbuilt Bolt face and over built barrel nut and barrel lugs like LMT or KAC handle an 80k PSI 95gr SMK 5.56 round loaded long to 2.800 inch work and cycle?

Can AR10s even cycle at 80k PSi?
The challenge would be finding a slow burning propellant dense enough to make 80kPSI in a 556 case. A different cartridge would make a lot more sense. With that said, take a look at the CMMG Mutant. That platform would allow 22ARC to run up to 65kPSI.
 
If someone made the steel brass hybrid case in 5.56, loaded with a charge that produced 80k, and stuck a 77 grain SMK on top at mag length of 2.260 it would be some super velocity Mk262.

You seem to be confusing the 2.800 6.8x51 which IS in an AR10 variant with 5.56 ARs.


Yes. But AR10s can be extremely light now.

I think long loaded .600 b.c. 5.56mm would be fun.
 
The challenge would be finding a slow burning propellant dense enough to make 80kPSI in a 556 case. A different cartridge would make a lot more sense. With that said, take a look at the CMMG Mutant. That platform would allow 22ARC to run up to 65kPSI.


I think the idea of .22 CM "performance" in a small package is good.

It's the flattest shooting "AR" round.

But do they feed and extract properly?

6.5 Grendal doesn't. Why would .22 ARC or .22 Valk?
 
OP smoking bad quality crack

5.56/223 loaded to 2.8 in ? Huh ?
Large frame AR using 223 magazines ?

Or do you mean a 22 creedmoor made from a 6.8 hybrid case ?

Someone been watching too much guntubers …

Yes.

.22 Creedmoor Performance in a 6 lb AR10.

Sig M7s are heavy fat...fat bastards when dressed up.

Not even that accurate either.

At least they could have done 7mm Fury @ 190gr ATIP.

.800-900 b.c.

The 6.8 FMJs are like .450 b.c.

That sucks ass.
 
I think the idea of .22 CM "performance" in a small package is good.

It's the flattest shooting "AR" round.

But do they feed and extract properly?

6.5 Grendal doesn't. Why would .22 ARC or .22 Valk?

The major problems associated with Grendel based cartridges are related to fitting them in an AR-15. What you're proposing would require redesigned magazines anyway. If you're going to the trouble of redesigning magazines, you may as well look at other platforms on the market. The CMMG is a 7.62x39 bolt face in a 308 Winchester bolt head. The platform natively works with Grendel without the chamber pressure restriction of an AR-15.

As far as 22CM, it has a sub 1k round barrel life and has its own feeding problems. If that is acceptable there are off the shelf parts available today.
 

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The major problems associated with Grendel based cartridges are related to fitting them in an AR-15. What you're proposing would require redesigned magazines anyway. If you're going to the trouble of redesigning magazines, you may as well look at other platforms on the market. The CMMG is a 7.62x39 bolt face in a 308 Winchester bolt head. The platform natively works with Grendel without the chamber pressure restriction of an AR-15.

As far as 22CM, it has a sub 1k round barrel life and has its own feeding problems. If that is acceptable there are off the shelf parts available today.

How goddamn hard is it to invent an XM7 superior platform that doesn't weight 16 lbs?

Serbs just use 6.5x39...
Russians just use 6.01x41..

How hard is this?
 
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Probably not as hard as advancements in newer battlefield tactics with drones and signals detection/evasion.

I feel like Big Army just tried to stuff different rounds into M4 platforms and then says FUCK it when they don't work. 6.8 SPC in M4s for example.

Well no shit the bolt face is puny for full power ammo.
 
I think the idea of .22 CM "performance" in a small package is good.

It's the flattest shooting "AR" round.

But do they feed and extract properly?

6.5 Grendal doesn't. Why would .22 ARC or .22 Valk?
Who told you 6.5 Grendel doesn’t feed and extract properly?

I’ve been shooting it in pretty high volume since 2009, and I don’t like looking like a fool in front of DM course attendees or my kids, so I would ditch something pretty quick if it behaved like that.

You will never reach the velocities of 6.5 Grendel though with any of the .224” cartridges shooting similar weight bullets. Even the 6mm variants are bottle-necked to where you have to be careful on the back end due to bore volume.

What problem are you trying to solve and what is the application?

If you’re dissatisfied with the Army’s approach to small arms, join the club. They haven’t RFI’d and RFP’d a successful service rifle since the M-1 Garand.
 
Who told you 6.5 Grendel doesn’t feed and extract properly?

I’ve been shooting it in pretty high volume since 2009, and I don’t like looking like a fool in front of DM course attendees or my kids, so I would ditch something pretty quick if it behaved like that.

You will never reach the velocities of 6.5 Grendel though with any of the .224” cartridges shooting similar weight bullets. Even the 6mm variants are bottle-necked to where you have to be careful on the back end due to bore volume.

What problem are you trying to solve and what is the application?

If you’re dissatisfied with the Army’s approach to small arms, join the club. They haven’t RFI’d and RFP’d a successful service rifle since the M-1 Garand.
I was waiting for you to turn up here.
 
For those that think the M-14 was successful, it wasn’t. I’ve always been fond of the M-14, but my feelings for it don’t trump the harsh reality. It had a lot of issues in production and was the wrong chambering and rifle configuration if you read through pages upon pages of AARs from The Great War, WWII, and Korea. They ignored the call for an intermediate cartridge and stuck with a slightly-shorter, full-power battle rifle cartridge that produced the same recoil and limited round count issues of the Garand, only the Garand’s ammo was actually lighter because it was carried in stripper clips vs large steel box mags.

iu


AR-15 was shot-down by Army Ordnance Board even though Fort Benning/Infantry Center requested the SCHV submissions in 1957. Ordnance Board declared it totally unsuitable for military use in their final report to the Pentagon.

iu


Then just a few weeks later, Ordnance Board got orders from DoD to begin type classification of the AR-15 for the USAF per General Curtis LeMay’s “polite request”. Then they began their efforts to sabotage the AR-15, and the sabotaged rifles still out-performed the hand-selected M-14s.

Army Ordnance acquiesced with the understanding that the AR-15 would be but a stop-gap solution while they worked on their SPIW Wunderwaffen in the 1960s, which never went anywhere other than manifesting an underslung Grenade Launcher for the AR-15 with the XM148 and later M203.

iu


The Army tried replacing the AR-15/M-16 family of weapons in the 1980s with the ACR Program, which gave us the flat-top upper from the Colt submission, the ACOG, and the Elcan.

iu


After 4 decades of successful, trouble-free M203 employment across scores of conflicts, the Army finally "fixed it" and replaced it with the abortion M320.

iu


iu



The Army also tried replacing the M4/M16 with the XM8 from Hk, which is where the M320 GL came from. Had to justify something from the program like the previous ones, so the M203 that didn’t need fixing was replaced with a monstrous/bulky/cumbersome GL.

iu


iu


Now they’re on about the XM7 and XM157. Remember how we learned back in the early 1960s with the classified Fort Benning force-on-force studies how a unit equipped with intermediate cartridge rifles runs down ones equipped with battle rifles?

iu
 
Would a large and overbuilt Bolt face and over built barrel nut and barrel lugs like LMT or KAC handle an 80k PSI 95gr SMK 5.56 round loaded long to 2.800 inch work and cycle?

Can AR10s even cycle at 80k PSi?
To answer the real question, I don’t think .224” bore was the right direction to go for the 1957 SCHV Rifle concept. It should have been either 6mm or 6.35mm with more bore volume to evacuate quickly, and also more substantial projectile mass without going too crazy.

I love the small base diameter of the 5.56 case when it comes to stacking lots of ammo in mags and pouches, but that also leaves you with boiler room limits with propellant mass, and therefore velocity and projectile weight suffers.

With an intermediate cartridge, you can pump the case capacity up to 34-36gr, increase the projectile mass in a range from 75-115gr depending on the load and application, without increasing chamber pressure unnecessarily. You can also spit out 55gr at insane velocities that are in the realm of .22-250, without being a throat-torcher/barrel-burner in the .224" bores.

.22-250 performance is like a death-ray.
 
I feel like Big Army just tried to stuff different rounds into M4 platforms and then says FUCK it when they don't work. 6.8 SPC in M4s for example.

Well no shit the bolt face is puny for full power ammo.
Big Army didn’t drive any of that. 6.8x43 was driven by a small handful of guys between 5th Group Special Projects/Combat Systems Development and the AMU.

SF wasn’t even the driver of 6.8, but instead looked at the 3 different paths of cartridge and carbine operational use requests over the 1980s-early 2000s, and saw that one of the main requirements was a light sniper/DM system. After looking at the ballistics between Match loads being tested by JSOC, AMU, and USMC, they saw that the 77gr BTHP .224” projectiles had more supersonic reach than the 115gr 6.8 OTMs, even though the 6.8 projectiles had better terminal performance within 300m as designed/intended.

SOCOM went their way with Mk.262 Mod 0 and Mod 1, SOST, Barnes 70gr Brown Tip TSX, and Big Army pushed the development of M855A1 EPR. By sticking with 5.56, it didn’t require new uppers, magazines, muzzle devices, and ammunition to confuse the logistics system. Big Army also shut down SF’s plans to go with a different enhanced bolt carrier for the M4A1 made by LMT, out of fear it might end up in M16A2/A4s and short-stroke the guns. That’s why SOCOM pushed the SCAR program away from the M4, even though they had an ideal solution for short barrels and suppressors with the Enhanced LMT BCG.

The culture within systems development in the Army is not one focused on excellence, but planned mediocrity to protect their developmental budget. They couldn’t care less about managing an actual successful, well-designed piece of equipment or weapon.
 
Probably not as hard as advancements in newer battlefield tactics with drones and signals detection/evasion.

The new drones are fast like a crotch rocket.
Big Army didn’t drive any of that. 6.8x43 was driven by a small handful of guys between 5th Group Special Projects/Combat Systems Development and the AMU.

SF wasn’t even the driver of 6.8, but instead looked at the 3 different paths of cartridge and carbine operational use requests over the 1980s-early 2000s, and saw that one of the main requirements was a light sniper/DM system. After looking at the ballistics between Match loads being tested by JSOC, AMU, and USMC, they saw that the 77gr BTHP .224” projectiles had more supersonic reach than the 115gr 6.8 OTMs, even though the 6.8 projectiles had better terminal performance within 300m as designed/intended.

SOCOM went their way with Mk.262 Mod 0 and Mod 1, SOST, Barnes 70gr Brown Tip TSX, and Big Army pushed the development of M855A1 EPR. By sticking with 5.56, it didn’t require new uppers, magazines, muzzle devices, and ammunition to confuse the logistics system. Big Army also shut down SF’s plans to go with a different enhanced bolt carrier for the M4A1 made by LMT, out of fear it might end up in M16A2/A4s and short-stroke the guns. That’s why SOCOM pushed the SCAR program away from the M4, even though they had an ideal solution for short barrels and suppressors with the Enhanced LMT BCG.

The culture within systems development in the Army is not one focused on excellence, but planned mediocrity to protect their developmental budget. They couldn’t care less about managing an actual successful, well-designed piece of equipment or weapon.


Big army relied on new bullet design.
The "manufacturing machine" spits out 5.56 casings and new bullet designs can be outsourced.

Elongated 5.56x45 casings with 6mm and 6.35 can work in 6-7 lb AR10s with new mags.

New mags are easy and cheap.

Basically 5.56x49 or something to that effect.

Like a long ass 5.56.

Also..think of a cop dragging you out of a Camaro window for speeding.

Do you want a 290lb cop with giant hands or a 90lb chick?

290lb has better extraction. So an AR10 E3 or LMT bolt face can rip out 5.56 Rem Mag's or 6mm Rem Mag's out easily.

Then you get 1500 yard trannies on existing infrastructure.

Sell the M4A1 and Block 2s to Northern Mexico and Canada.
 
You don’t want an AR-10 as a standard service carbine.

You don’t want long magazines (length relative to COL).

New mags are extremely difficult and expensive to develop, one of the most frustrating components for firearms to work out.

Carrying SR-25/AR-10 mags sucks, doesn’t allow enough mags to be carried on your fighting load, and limits your ability to sustain a fight very long.

Cartridges with really long cases with a long propellant column are inefficient in how they burn, and are often notorious for wide variations in Extreme Spread/Standard Deviation. You also get inconsistent gas port pressure metering and early port erosion, leading to increased cyclic rate and FTExtract malfs as a result.

You can get overkill performance from intermediate cartridges that currently fit within the 2.260” COL set by the AR-15, as long as you increase the case capacity and bore volume a bit. For example, a 10.5” barrel 6.5 Grendel will spit an 80gr monolith out at 2745fps at 50,000psi. It takes a 20” 5.56 to do that at 58,000-62,000psi and you have to single load, as 80gr won’t fit in the magazine.

You can also keep the 5.56 outer form factor and use stainless steel for the case, increase the case capacity that way, and the working pressure of the cartridge if you want to chase pressure.

I don’t think chasing pressure is the answer though.

We’re already having enough of a problem with organizational incompetence/negligence with gauging weapons, filling billets with well-trained armorers who got something other than public screweling, and leading them with officers who actually learned their jobs (good luck with that).

Time to start accounting for organizational Idiocracy and build more dumb-proofing into the weapons and ammunition.

Chasing pressure is just asking for early throat wear, port erosion, and worn-out weapons to slip through the cracks of the window-lickers. I know of units right now that haven’t had a school-trained armorer in years, staffed with officers who don’t know the basics about the M4 or why things are the way they are.

Now imagine them being handed an 80ksi Wunderwaffen with stocks that can’t even take the torque value needed to hold them in place, with Integrated Electro-Optical sights that fail after 1000 live-fire g impulses into the system. That’s already happening right now.
 
OP... (SigSauerM7),
are you the same video game guy from last year (highbclowgr), who was on this Forum looking for ideas for AR-10 loads with ultra light bullets, with high BC...to use in his video games?...because these questions seem very similar.
Thanks
 
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You don’t want an AR-10 as a standard service carbine.

You don’t want long magazines (length relative to COL).

New mags are extremely difficult and expensive to develop, one of the most frustrating components for firearms to work out.

Carrying SR-25/AR-10 mags sucks, doesn’t allow enough mags to be carried on your fighting load, and limits your ability to sustain a fight very long.

Cartridges with really long cases with a long propellant column are inefficient in how they burn, and are often notorious for wide variations in Extreme Spread/Standard Deviation. You also get inconsistent gas port pressure metering and early port erosion, leading to increased cyclic rate and FTExtract malfs as a result.

You can get overkill performance from intermediate cartridges that currently fit within the 2.260” COL set by the AR-15, as long as you increase the case capacity and bore volume a bit. For example, a 10.5” barrel 6.5 Grendel will spit an 80gr monolith out at 2745fps at 50,000psi. It takes a 20” 5.56 to do that at 58,000-62,000psi and you have to single load, as 80gr won’t fit in the magazine.

You can also keep the 5.56 outer form factor and use stainless steel for the case, increase the case capacity that way, and the working pressure of the cartridge if you want to chase pressure.

I don’t think chasing pressure is the answer though.

We’re already having enough of a problem with organizational incompetence/negligence with gauging weapons, filling billets with well-trained armorers who got something other than public screweling, and leading them with officers who actually learned their jobs (good luck with that).

Time to start accounting for organizational Idiocracy and build more dumb-proofing into the weapons and ammunition.

Chasing pressure is just asking for early throat wear, port erosion, and worn-out weapons to slip through the cracks of the window-lickers. I know of units right now that haven’t had a school-trained armorer in years, staffed with officers who don’t know the basics about the M4 or why things are the way they are.

Now imagine them being handed an 80ksi Wunderwaffen with stocks that can’t even take the torque value needed to hold them in place, with Integrated Electro-Optical sights that fail after 1000 live-fire g impulses into the system. That’s already happening right now.

Wow super detailed!

I learned a lot. Thank you.

A question for you.

How far has barrel metallurgy come since the 1960s?

3200 fps was considered appropriate for 1963 with M193.

Is it possible to not have excess throat erosion @ 3300, 3400, and 3500 FPS with "known" metal and coating formulas.
 
Wow super detailed!

I learned a lot. Thank you.

A question for you.

How far has barrel metallurgy come since the 1960s?

3200 fps was considered appropriate for 1963 with M193.

Is it possible to not have excess throat erosion @ 3300, 3400, and 3500 FPS with "known" metal and coating formulas.
If you read through some of the Army Ordnance/ARDEC studies in the 1950-1960ss on barrel metallurgy for the M60 program, you will see a lot of familiar processes and linings that have been marketed as new wizardry in the past 20 years. They tried all of that, including NiB and various nitriding processes, and ended up going to Stellite liners for M60 barrels, because they were experiencing a lot of early bore erosion and loss of performance.

The Stellite liner is actually another barrel that gets press-fit into the barrel, then a barrel collar with the rest of the chamber gets threaded on and torqued hard into place, followed by the barrel extension being torqued on. For those of us who remember the M60, you might recall that seam on the barrel in front of the extension flange. That’s why.

cut-away-jpg.118122


cut-away-5-jpg.118126


Notice that the Stellite liner starts at the freebore in front of the case mouth, to help mitigate the blast of solid prepellant being converted and flowing through the throat during the conversion and early conflagration.

For general issue service rifles, it’s not something you would be able to scale in production.

It would be very prohibitive even for limited issue.

With the .224” bore, we’re at the max right now with the case capacity of 5.56, which has surprisingly-good barrel life with hard chrome-lined barrels. It all depends on the shoot schedule you run them through. In some units, that means they toast barrels every 2 weeks, while in others, they last 12-14 years. Some shoot a lot, and some don’t.

The more back-end capacity and pressure we apply to anything with a .224” bore, the more throat erosion we will see. It’s as simple as that. This is why I think the .224” bore needs to slowly go away and open up to .257” at a minimum. 6mm/.243” is not much different in that regard than .224” and builds a lot of pressure due to limited bore volume. Most everyone with .243” bores that actually shoots a lot is looking for their next barrel.

If you read through the SCHV concepts, history, and studies, they wanted high impact velocities both for tissue destruction and helmet perforation. The 222 Remington already met the requirements, but Army Ordnance inserted itself and kept moving the goal posts for the steel perforation tests until it “only” penetrated one side of an M1 steel helmet, but didn’t go out the other. They then declared it unsuitable and washed their hands of it. Stoner asked Remington if they could increase the case capacity a little by blowing the shoulder forward (222 Rem has a lot of neck length available), and then had them reduce the projectile weight from 68gr to 55gr, and added a boat tail. This is where the 222 Remington Special came from, and was later type-classified as 5.56x45mm M193.

iu


They were able to then increase the muzzle velocity and still retain enough impact speed to perforate the steel helmet at the new goal post placement to satisfy the silly requirement, but I think Stoner felt Army Ordnance was going to dismiss it either way. He still continued to do his due diligence as a lead designer at ArmaLite.

Army Ordnance then began sending different cartridge drawings to ArmaLite to add case capacity in order to get more performance from the rifle, some of them very good ideas (like the 25 Remington-based cartridge), but they were designed to keep ArmaLite running around in circles chasing their tails and bleeding money while Army Ordnance pushed the M-14 development to a key milestone for production so that the AR-15 could be side-lined and forgotten. Each time a new cartridge was designed, then needed to design new magazines and increase the receiver set, bolt, and barrel extension sizes slightly.

Fairchild Aircraft Company looked at this small arms division of theirs, and saw ArmaLite was eating up budget without any contracts, so Cooper-McDonald Co. arranged for the sale of the Stoner patents and tool room samples of AR-10s and AR-15s to Colt in the summer of 1959. Colt began tooling up for the AR-10A, which was a smaller frame version of the original AR-10s with several updates from the AR-15 that would make it easier to produce.

iu


McDonald began touring around South Pacific and Southeast Asian countries in 1959 to show them the AR-10 and AR-15 prototypes, doing shooting demos, and found that several nations’ militaries and police were ready to order AR-15s on the spot, not the AR-10.

He sent an urgent wire message back to Colt in Hartford, CT, telling them to tool-up for AR-15s instead of AR-10s so they could start filling orders. Colt started manufacturing the Model 601 AR-15 in December of 1959, and Cooper-McDonald got one of the original Colt 601s, serial number 106 (the 6th 601 off the line). McDonald took this to Dick Buetelle’s (CEO of Fairchild-Hiller Corp at the time) 4th of July birthday BBQ, where USAF Vice Chief of Staff, Curtis LeMay was attending.

LeMay was looking for a new rifle for his elite SPs, who would guard the US’s nuclear sites and nuclear bomber bases. They put out watermelons for him to shoot, and the rest is history. LeMay’s requests at the Pentagon were taken far more seriously than pretty much anything the US Army had to say, so this is why Army Ordnance was bewildered when their elimination of the AR-15 was overridden without comment and they were ordered to begin type-classification of the rifle.

I do feel that those tail-chasing cartridge configurations would have yielded a better intermediate cartridge, if it had been in .257”, which was not being considered at the time. A shorter .257” bore cartridge based on the 25 Remington would have been the way to go, which takes you up in case capacity and makes for a great carbine, DM, Light Sniper, and LMG cartridge. The 5.56 is a bit light for those applications once you start increasing the engagement distances.
 
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Slight derailing of the thread here.

Look at this video. Just came out yesterday.

113gr 6.8x51 XM7 @ 80k PSi.
3194 fps.....

Look how accurate it isn't.



@Molon

Everyone I know who has an extensive background in Light Infantry, Airborne, SF, and JSOC experience over the last 30+ years shares the same sentiment in that the XM7 is the wrong direction to be going.

We all knew the weight problem is a non-starter out of the gate. You can’t issue out a carbine that is heavier than the M14 was and expect positive feedback from Infantry. To add insult to injury, the weight is all forward, just like on the other SIG Spears, only heavier. A front-heavy carbine is not easy to aim and shoot, let alone carry.

When you configure it with the XM157, Suppressor, WPL, and Sling, you’re looking at LMG weight, not a carbine platform anymore.
That’s before we start talking about where to carry the mags.
This program shows a total disregard for soldiers at a level that is far beyond disrespectful, and fully embraces a proud posture of extreme levels of incompetence and negligence.

If I could tell you the responses from within PEO Soldier, it would boil your blood. I will wait on that due to respect of some other parties, but to put it bluntly, these guys are so far separated from reality that they have literally no interest or investment in the soldier. They couldn’t care less about him, his gear, or his weapons.

I don’t necessarily fault SIG for responding to the contract and meeting the requirements they were given with the set projectile configuration. It’s just that the whole NGSW is ill-conceived and not in-touch with what is actually needed by soldiers.

Look who is not using it, for example. They all looked at it and said, “Get that trash away from here."
 
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If you read through some of the Army Ordnance/ARDEC studies in the 1950-1960ss on barrel metallurgy for the M60 program, you will see a lot of familiar processes and linings that have been marketed as new wizardry in the past 20 years. They tried all of that, including NiB and various nitriding processes, and ended up going to Stellite liners for M60 barrels, because they were experiencing a lot of early bore erosion and loss of performance.

The Stellite liner is actually another barrel that gets press-fit into the barrel, then a barrel collar with the rest of the chamber gets threaded on and torqued hard into place, followed by the barrel extension being torqued on. For those of us who remember the M60, you might recall that seam on the barrel in front of the extension flange. That’s why.

cut-away-jpg.118122


cut-away-5-jpg.118126


Notice that the Stellite liner starts at the freebore in front of the case mouth, to help mitigate the blast of solid prepellant being converted and flowing through the throat during the conversion and early conflagration.

For general issue service rifles, it’s not something you would be able to scale in production.

It would be very prohibitive even for limited issue.

With the .224” bore, we’re at the max right now with the case capacity of 5.56, which has surprisingly-good barrel life with hard chrome-lined barrels. It all depends on the shoot schedule you run them through. In some units, that means they toast barrels every 2 weeks, while in others, they last 12-14 years. Some shoot a lot, and some don’t.

The more back-end capacity and pressure we apply to anything with a .224” bore, the more throat erosion we will see. It’s as simple as that. This is why I think the .224” bore needs to slowly go away and open up to .257” at a minimum. 6mm/.243” is not much different in that regard than .224” and builds a lot of pressure due to limited bore volume. Most everyone with .243” bores that actually shoots a lot is looking for their next barrel.

If you read through the SCHV concepts, history, and studies, they wanted high impact velocities both for tissue destruction and helmet perforation. The 222 Remington already met the requirements, but Army Ordnance inserted itself and kept moving the goal posts for the steel perforation tests until it “only” penetrated one side of an M1 steel helmet, but didn’t go out the other. They then declared it unsuitable and washed their hands of it. Stoner asked Remington if they could increase the case capacity a little by blowing the shoulder forward (222 Rem has a lot of neck length available), and then had them reduce the projectile weight from 68gr to 55gr, and added a boat tail. This is where the 222 Remington Special came from, and was later type-classified as 5.56x45mm M193.

iu


They were able to then increase the muzzle velocity and still retain enough impact speed to perforate the steel helmet at the new goal post placement to satisfy the silly requirement, but I think Stoner felt Army Ordnance was going to dismiss it either way. He still continued to do his due diligence as a lead designer at ArmaLite.

Army Ordnance then began sending different cartridge drawings to ArmaLite to add case capacity in order to get more performance from the rifle, some of them very good ideas (like the 25 Remington-based cartridge), but they were designed to keep ArmaLite running around in circles chasing their tails and bleeding money while Army Ordnance pushed the M-14 development to a key milestone for production so that the AR-15 could be side-lined and forgotten. Each time a new cartridge was designed, then needed to design new magazines and increase the receiver set, bolt, and barrel extension sizes slightly.

Fairchild Aircraft Company looked at this small arms division of theirs, and saw ArmaLite was eating up budget without any contracts, so Cooper-McDonald Co. arranged for the sale of the Stoner patents and tool room samples of AR-10s and AR-15s to Colt in the summer of 1959. Colt began tooling up for the AR-10A, which was a smaller frame version of the original AR-10s with several updates from the AR-15 that would make it easier to produce.

iu


McDonald began touring around South Pacific and Southeast Asian countries in 1959 to show them the AR-10 and AR-15 prototypes, doing shooting demos, and found that several nations’ militaries and police were ready to order AR-15s on the spot, not the AR-10.

He sent an urgent wire message back to Colt in Hartford, CT, telling them to tool-up for AR-15s instead of AR-10s so they could start filling orders. Colt started manufacturing the Model 601 AR-15 in December of 1959, and Cooper-McDonald got one of the original Colt 601s, serial number 106 (the 6th 601 off the line). McDonald took this to Dick Buetelle’s (CEO of Fairchild-Hiller Corp at the time) 4th of July birthday BBQ, where USAF Vice Chief of Staff, Curtis LeMay was attending.

LeMay was looking for a new rifle for his elite SPs, who would guard the US’s nuclear sites and nuclear bomber bases. They out out watermelons for him to shoot, and the rest is history. LeMay’s requests at the Pentagon were taken far more seriously than pretty much anything the US Army had to say, so this is why Army Ordnance was bewildered when their elimination of the AR-15 was overridden without comment and they were ordered to begin type-classification of the rifle.

I do feel that those tail-chasing cartridge configurations would have yielded a better intermediate cartridge, if it had been in .257”, which was not being considered at the time. A shorter .257” bore cartridge based on the 25 Remington would have been the way to go, which takes you up in case capacity and makes for a great carbine, DM, Light Sniper, and LMG cartridge. The 5.56 is a bit light for those applications once you start increasing the engagement distances.

An AR-10A in 6mm SPC or .257 SPC would be the ultimate @ .450-.600 b.c.

63k SPi.

Mags in between AR15 and AR10 size.
 
You don’t need to mess with the AR-15 receivers even if you use a case that has 34gr capacity and allows the ogive length you’re looking for. Grendel already does what you need for DMs and really excels from PDWs.

You can step up to the Six8 receiver set size if you really want to, which allows a bit longer COL and 30rd PMAGs. I have that as well for experimentation.

But I love how easy it is to carry 5.56-sized mags. In Recon Platoons and LRS, we used to carry more than a basic load pretty easily. It was normal in LRS to go with a double basic load of 420rds/14 mags. There were guys in SOG who said in their memoirs during certain firefights, “After initial contact and making a few bounds, I was down to only 20 mags (380-400rds)."

The big AR-10 sized receiver set should really be eliminated from any future discussions about small arms design. You can accomplish what you need to happen down-range without stepping up into that receiver set or those .473” case head-based cartridges off the .308 Win. It just sucks to carry that type of ammo, and you don’t get to self-spot through the optic.

With some of the projectiles in development, you can reach 3400fps from a 12” Grendel and not exceed 50,000psi. They’ll do 3050fps from an 8.5” barrel Grendel PDW. This leaves you all kinds of room for your suppressor and you’re still more compact and lightweight than the existing M4.

We need to be thinking about going smaller, not bigger. The M4 is already too big and bulky for a lot of the duty positions in an Infantry Company as it is, once it’s configured.

COs, 1SGs, XOs, PLs, RTOs, Commo, drivers, Grenadiers, AGs, ABs, Anti-Armor Weapons, USAF JTACs, FOs, Combat Medics, Drone Operators, and Combat Engineers don’t need a 14.5” M4A1 that weighs a lot more once you attach everything. Every one of those duty positions goes outside the wire regularly, and many of them bring more killing and destructive power to the Company and Platoons than pee-shooters can.

Even in the Line Rifle Squads, if I hold up an 8.5” or 12” streamlined Mini-AR with everything on it that has better ballistics than their current 14.5” M4, they’re all going to want the smaller, lighter solution that delivers better on-target performance, while increasing their effective range and reducing the number of required shots to put dudes down.
 
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Everyone I know who has an extensive background in Light Infantry, Airborne, SF, and JSOC experience over the last 30+ years shares the same sentiment in that the XM7 is the wrong direction to be going.

We all knew the weight problem is a non-starter out of the gate. You can’t issue out a carbine that is heavier than the M14 was and expect positive feedback from Infantry. To add insult to injury, the weight is all forward, just like on the other SIG Spears, only heavier. A front-heavy carbine is not easy to aim and shoot, let alone carry.

When you configure it with the XM157, Suppressor, WPL, and Sling, you’re looking at LMG weight, not a carbine platform anymore.
That’s before we start talking about where to carry the mags.
This program shows a total disregard for soldiers at a level that is far beyond disrespectful, and fully embraces a proud posture of extreme levels of incompetence and negligence.

If I could tell you the responses from within PEO Soldier, it would boil your blood. I will wait on that due to respect of some other parties, but to put it bluntly, these guys are so far separated from reality that they have literally no interest or investment in the soldier. They couldn’t care less about him, his gear, or his weapons.

I don’t necessarily fault SIG for responding to the contract and meeting the requirements they were given with the set projectile configuration. It’s just that the whole NGSW is ill-conceived and not in-touch with what is actually needed by soldiers.

Look who is not using it, for example. They all looked at it and said, “Get that trash away from here."

Carbon Fiber barrels with Stellite lines would lighten it up. Lose the Vortex sight and put on regular sights.

Lower pressure match ammo that is sub moa might be okay. Like a 150gr Accubond @ .620 b.c. EPR rounds that are 1.5 MOA might be okay.

Needs some tweaks.
 
You don’t need to mess with the AR-15 receivers even if you use a case that has 34gr capacity and allows the ogive length you’re looking for. Grendel already does what you need for DMs and really excels from PDWs.

You can step up to the Six8 receiver set size if you really want to, which allows a bit longer COL and 30rd PMAGs. I have that as well for experimentation.

But I love how easy it is to carry 5.56-sized mags. In Recon Platoons and LRS, we used to carry more than a basic load pretty easily. It was normal in LRS to go with a double basic load of 420rds/14 mags. There were guys in SOG who said in their memoirs during certain firefights, “After initial contact and making a few bounds, I was down to only 20 mags (380-400rds)."

The big AR-10 sized receiver set should really be eliminated from any future discussions about small arms design. You can accomplish what you need to happen down-range without stepping up into that receiver set or those .473” case head-based cartridges off the .308 Win. It just sucks to carry that type of ammo, and you don’t get to self-spot through the optic.

With some of the projectiles in development, you can reach 3400fps from a 12” Grendel and not exceed 50,000psi. They’ll do 3050fps from an 8.5” barrel Grendel PDW. This leaves you all kinds of room for your suppressor and you’re still more compact and lightweight than the existing M4.

We need to be thinking about going smaller, not bigger. The M4 is already too big and bulky for a lot of the duty positions in an Infantry Company as it is, once it’s configured.

COs, 1SGs, XOs, PLs, RTOs, Commo, drivers, Grenadiers, AGs, ABs, Anti-Armor Weapons, USAF JTACs, FOs, Combat Medics, Drone Operators, and Combat Engineers don’t need a 14.5” M4A1 that weighs a lot more once you attach everything. Every one of those duty positions goes outside the wire regularly, and many of them bring more killing and destructive power to the Company and Platoons than pee-shooters can.

Even in the Line Rifle Squads, if I hold up an 8.5” or 12” streamlined Mini-AR with everything on it that has better ballistics than their current 14.5” M4, they’re all going to want the smaller, lighter solution that delivers better on-target performance, while increasing their effective range and reducing the number of required shots to put dudes down.

100% agreed. 6mm ARC and 6.5 Grendel seem realistically the way to be. Chasing pressure opens groups up and runs hotter.

Russians run 50k PSi for a reason.
 
Carbon Fiber barrels with Stellite lines would lighten it up. Lose the Vortex sight and put on regular sights.

Lower pressure match ammo that is sub moa might be okay. Like a 150gr Accubond @ .620 b.c. EPR rounds that are 1.5 MOA might be okay.

Needs some tweaks.
External op-rod piston designs belong in the early 1900s where they were introduced, unless you don’t care about accuracy.

For gas guns, I haven’t seen anything touch the Stoner design for accuracy so far.

The only thing to tweak on the XM7 is the lever for the trap door that makes it fall into a recycling centrifuge to separate out all the materials so they can be used again for something else.

Imagine handing a 12-14lb carbine to an RTO, Grenadier, Mortar Section, or gun team guy in Weapons Squad. They’re trying to take a Brigade from 101st with these to JRTC next year. They don’t even have enough to issue because they don’t work. It requires a totally different BCG for blank-firing, and the stocks are snapping off due to how much torque is required to attach them to the rail on the back of the receiver.

If you don’t attach the muzzle blast dampener (suppressor), it will deafen you pretty quick, which is no surprise from what is essentially a 13” barreled .270 Magnum +P+ stuffed into a .270-08 case.

135gr at 2900fps from a 13” barrel is no joke. It just requires design and performance trade-offs in every other aspect of the system.
 
100% agreed. 6mm ARC and 6.5 Grendel seem realistically the way to be. Chasing pressure opens groups up and runs hotter.

Russians run 50k PSi for a reason.
Russians run lower pressures because they can’t reliably crank out high-strength steels for their small arms industry and implement the QC processes necessary to make consistent parts, or ammunition. They have very wide variances in ammunition performance lot-to-lot, which comes as no surprise if you’ve ever lived there and looked at how they survive day-to-day. They make all the stereotypes seem like complements.
 
Everyone I know who has an extensive background in Light Infantry, Airborne, SF, and JSOC experience over the last 30+ years shares the same sentiment in that the XM7 is the wrong direction to be going.
The few guys I know that are recently out say that there's so little time spent training the average grunt that hitting the broadside of a barn from the inside is a way bigger problem than some perceived deficiency in ballistic horsepower.
 
36 posts and the resident hybrid case evangelist hasn’t chimed in. Turn on the bat signal

@45-90
So, the earth signal finally arrived.
The OP sounds a little out there, with the 5.56 hybrid cases, for which there are none, (but I can cut the heads down and add an extractor groove....so it would have a 308 body dia. and more capacity than the 22 Creedmoor, but too long for the AR15...)
Then combine it with a AR 10 length, with AR 10 barrel extension.... ??? What do you want to do? Comes to mind.
A 22 caliber at high velocity, can be done.
The easy button is 22 Creedmoor with a hybrid case of cosrse, in AR10, but 80,000 psi is a bit much, for the standard AR 10 platform, but 65,000 is okay, with quality parts.
A 22/6.5 PRC can be done in an AR 10, with 95 gr SMK...might run up against RPM limits in a 6.5 twist.
I run the 338 RCM same case, at 62kPSI to 65kPSI in AR 10 18" barrel.
Don't want a 10" AR barrel and 64 grains of RL 26 powder behind a 95 gr .224" bullets, but it might get 33 to 3400 fps in an 18"
AR 10. Ya lose a lot of velocity in short barrels, with high capacity cases like 300 fps in the really big cases, going from 24" to 18".
The 458 SOCOM could be shortened and necked down, (that would be weird looking duck and take a while to get a reamer) but its really a low pressure round in the AR 15. The 30RAR case allows more pressure and at .500" body dia is larger than .473," of the 308...but all this won't get ya there in an AR 15 platform, and an 18" barrel, or worse a 10" barrel.
Dream on... sometimes ya gotta alter things to make it work. But it's usually time consuming and costly...and no one is gonna do it for ya.

Here is a magnum case in an 18" AR 10 necked to 338", but it could be necked to .224"


The largest case to fit in the AR 10 has its case head machined down to .535" to fit the magnum KAK bolt head, holds 91 grs of powder...it would be a bit of work to neck it to .224" but it could be done.
Maybe this will answer your questions or inspire your dreams...😁
 

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I forgot a few companies, used to sell AR 15 uppers in 223 WSSM, and others, but they may not have been fast twist barrels.
Probably for varmints....plus WSSM cases have disappeared from the market.
 
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